UKC Forums - Why and What?

Pages (14): « First ... « 4 5 [6] 7 8 » ... Last »
Show all 330 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- Blueticks (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=48)
-- Why and What? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928336797)

Posted by 408northville on 09-12-2013 12:26 AM:

Re: 408northville

John, I am not suggesting breeding one method over another, the topic was adding traits and were to find them and what I am saying is you cannot just add a trait by outcrossing. When Dean was winning big it was a result of inbreeding or line breeding as well as selection. Same with top hounds in other breeds, since then in all the breeds they have not got much better and in general most are worse. I understand there is some exceptions.

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
With all due respect, you are entitled to your own opinion and I am not going to say your are wrong, but to suggest that we should all get a couple dogs that meet our standards, breed them, keep entire litters, cull, keep the best, and repeat the process for several generations is not something that is even feasible for the vast majority of people to do. This process would take almost total dedication to accomplish correctly in my opinion. So, can we get back to the original question about traits?

I personally had to take a few years away from coon hunting to raise kids. When I got back into it heavy about 7 years ago, I personally felt like the other breeds had advanced considerably from what I had remembered. I started questioning to myself why is that and looking at other breeds and maybe different breeding philosophy's and things that may be working for them. I noticed that you may have 4 different Grandsires that were from different lines on several of the big winning dogs. Totally different than what you would typically see on a Blue dogs papers. Those dogs aren't winning by luck and they are from a variety of different "bloodlines'. They are coon hounds so why would it work for them and not in a Bluetick? Traits of the different dogs and blending them together into one hound to make a top coon dog is the only answer that I can come up with.

Not trying to re invent the wheel, but trying to keep an open mind and learn from other coon hound breeders, not just the breeders of Blueticks.

Posted by 408northville on 09-12-2013 12:29 AM:

Jesse, I keep telling if you can tree a bobcat a coon is easy. I posted a picture of a litter of mine let's see yours.

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
408 im glad you have all the answers to bobcat hounds now can we get back to cponhounds

Posted by max destruction on 09-12-2013 01:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
Jesse, I keep telling if you can tree a bobcat a coon is easy. I posted a picture of a litter of mine let's see yours.

dont act like ive never bobcat hunted or that i havnt takin my coonhounds bobcat hunting and treed bobcatS!

Posting puppy pics will show what? That you think you got everything figured out cause you no how to breed 2 dogs togethed and puppys come out 63 days later?
Ive got a litter thats 6 weeks old,2nd time cross,1st cross is 2 and other people own all but 1 and there winning in other parts of the world and the 1 i got needs 1 win to b grand nite and has 2 wins towards grand show,how bout yours?

Thats something i have seen and heard alot of in the breed,alota dogs get shook up in diffrent areas with diffrent terrian more coon or less coon some cant get deep enough and some get to deep,in my opinion we need to be trying for the total pakage!

__________________
Jesse nappin
TEAM TREEDOGG!

Posted by southernthunder on 09-12-2013 01:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
dont act like ive never bobcat hunted or that i havnt takin my coonhounds bobcat hunting and treed bobcatS!

Posting puppy pics will show what? That you think you got everything figured out cause you no how to breed 2 dogs togethed and puppys come out 63 days later?
Ive got a litter thats 6 weeks old,2nd time cross,1st cross is 2 and other people own all but 1 and there winning in other parts of the world and the 1 i got needs 1 win to b grand nite and has 2 wins towards grand show,how bout yours?

Thats something i have seen and heard alot of in the breed,alota dogs get shook up in diffrent areas with diffrent terrian more coon or less coon some cant get deep enough and some get to deep,in my opinion we need to be trying for the total pakage!

I agree on the total package!

__________________
Eddie Harp
918-448-7321
Laelaps Pro Staff
Southern Thunder Bluetick Kennels

HOME OF: GRNITECH GRCH PR HAMLIN'S DAVIE CROCKET HTX
2015 TRIPLE CROWN CHAMPION
2015 PURINA RACE BREED CHAMPION
2013, 2014, 2015 BBOA ZONE 7 KING OF HUNT, HIGH SCORE, DOUBLE CAST WINNER
2015 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITECH BLUETICK
2015 AUTUMN OAKS GRAND 16
2015 AUTUMN OAKS BBOA / BBCHA HIGH SCORING BLUETICK
2015 WINTER CLASSIC DOUBLE CAST WINNER PURINA POINTS EVENT
2015 WINTER CLASSIC BBOA HIGH SCORING BLUETICK
2015 ARKANSAS STATE PURINA CONTENDER CAST WINNER / HIGH SCORE
2015 MISSOURI STATE PURINA CONTENDER CAST WINNER / HIGH SCORE
2015 OKLAHOMA STATE PURINA CONTENDER CAST WINNER
2015 KENTUCKY STATE PURINA CONTENDER CAST WINNER
2015 INDIANA STATE PURINA CONTEDER CAST WINNER
2015 BBOA ZONE 7 CHAMPION / DOUBLE CAST WINNER / HIGH SCORE / KING OF HUNT
2015 BBOA TEXAS STATE CHAMPION / HIGH SCORE / KING OF HUNT
2015 BBOA / WESTERN ENGLISH SHOOTOUT DOUBLE CAST WINNER / HIGH SCORE / KING OF HUNT
2015 UNITED ENGLISH ARKANSAS STATE CHAMPIONSHIP CHAMPION / HIGH SCORE OVERALL CHAMPION
2015 BBOA YOUTH NATIONALS CAST WINNER 2ND OVERALL HIGH SCORE
2015 BBOA ZONE 7 HOUND OF THE YEAR
2015 BBOA/BBCHA GRAND REUNION RQE 1ST PLACE IOWA
2015 BBOA NATIONAL BLUETICK DAYS INVITATIONAL CAST WINNER / 1ST RUNNER UP
2015 ELBERT VAUGHN MEMORIAL CHAMPION
2015 BILL JACKSON MEMORIAL CHAMPION
2015 BOOMER SOONER CLASSIC CHAMPION
2015 WESTERN ENGLISH SPRING CLASSIS CAST WINNER
2015 OKLAHOMA STATE YOUTH CHAMPIONSHIP CAST WINNER
2015 BLUETICK CHALLENGE CHAMPION
2015 BBOA OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION / DOUBLE CAST WINNER / HIGH SCORE / KING OF HUNT
2015 UKC WORLD HUNT CAST WINNER
2016 PURINA NATIONALS CAST WINNER / BREED CHAMPION / HIGH SCORING BLUETICK
5 Time World Qualifier and 3 Peat Zone Champion
Too many wins to list them all

Jesus is Lord!

Posted by 408northville on 09-12-2013 01:39 AM:

Jesse,
A picture of a litter of pups will tell you lots. When the offspring is as close as possible as being identical, litter after litter, that tell you two things, one there are genes that are fixed and two it’s the sign of a very good breeder.
It’s hard to win a competition coon hunt if I do not go, titles mean nothing to me but I do respect those who go and enjoy it. This I know, what I have culled and would never consider to use in my breeding program, is being promoted and is the foundation of several of the top bluetick breeders. I also know that those same hounds are grandnite champions. You would be better served to listen and it’s ok to say you just don’t know.
I also agree with the total package and that would be a good topic for another post. "What is the total package" Jesse I could show you that too.

Posted by southernthunder on 09-12-2013 01:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
Jesse,
A picture of a litter of pups will tell you lots. When the offspring is as close as possible as being identical, litter after litter, that tell you two things, one there are genes that are fixed and two it’s the sign of a very good breeder.
It’s hard to win a completion coon hunt if I do not go, titles mean nothing to me but I do respect those who go and enjoy it. This I know, what I have culled and would never consider to use in my breeding program, is being promoted and is the foundation of several of the top bluetick breeders. I also know that those same hounds are grandnite champions. You would be better served to listen and it’s ok to say you just don’t know.
I also agree with the total package and that would be a good topic for another post. "What is the total package" Jesse I could show you that too.

where is the pic of your pups? ooooops I found it. good looking little suckers!

Posted by 408northville on 09-12-2013 01:57 AM:

Thank you Eddie.

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
where is the pic of your pups? ooooops I found it. good looking little suckers!

Posted by ov_blues on 09-12-2013 01:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
Jesse,
A picture of a litter of pups will tell you lots. When the offspring is as close as possible as being identical, litter after litter, that tell you two things, one there are genes that are fixed and two it’s the sign of a very good breeder.
It’s hard to win a completion coon hunt if I do not go, titles mean nothing to me but I do respect those who go and enjoy it. This I know, what I have culled and would never consider to use in my breeding program, is being promoted and is the foundation of several of the top bluetick breeders. I also know that those same hounds are grandnite champions. You would be better served to listen and it’s ok to say you just don’t know.
I also agree with the total package and that would be a good topic for another post. "What is the total package" Jesse I could show you that too.

Man. This is one of the few times that I can say that I'd love to still be married to the ex wife and was still visiting her relatives with her in Texas! lol. All joking aside I would honestly love to go on a bobcat hunt with your hounds. I'm sure I'd enjoy it. I do think that traits do show up for generations, even with "outcrossing" though. I have noticed that the dogs that I have seen that have shown above average track speed with more athletic ability seem to all tie back somewhere to Uchtman's Rebel. More tree, winding ability seem to tie back to some of the old Hammer stock. Just examples of things that I have noticed about dominant traits.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by southernthunder on 09-12-2013 01:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
Thank you Eddie.

you are welcome

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-12-2013 02:37 AM:

jmo

AFTER reading some of these last post I figured out the problem. We argue to much or all the guys breeding these old sorry blues are so intelligent they have no common sense.

Btw first thing you get when linebreeding is uniform looks. Eventually if you dont outcross you have uniform 25lbs blue dogs that have litters of 4-5. That's if they can reproduce, literally speaking.

__________________
" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

Posted by Blue Iron on 09-12-2013 02:38 AM:

Re: jmo

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
if you dont outcross you have uniform 25lbs blue dogs that have litters of 4-5. That's if they can reproduce, literally speaking.

On average how long does it take to get this, generation wise?

__________________
Clyde Murphy 229-344-7308

GRCH GRNITECH"PR" Blue Iron Brummy HTX

Top 100 Finalist 2012 UKC World Hunt.

King of Hunt 2013 BBOA National Bluetick Days

Tree Blue

I use and recommend Backwoods Supplies

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-12-2013 02:43 AM:

408

Where at in Texas and do you get up this way. Cat hunting is what I cut me teeth on but we was not allowed to take any for a few years. I grew up less then 2 miles from Jim blaylock

__________________
" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

Posted by StanleyWagner on 09-12-2013 02:44 AM:

Breeding

John T G. I can go to Texas for a hunt. When is a good time? I would like to talk hounds in person. Thanks Stan. 606 267 5504.

Posted by joeinmo on 09-12-2013 02:50 AM:

pups

one thing I see in breeding is line breeding seems to get a much more consistant product and not only in dogs but the great one seems to pop up from nowhere. the question is was it a good cross if out of 8 pups you had one world champ and 7 duds is that a price most people want to pay. when hittler was breeding the supper race he was raising the Iq of people at a fast rate inbreeding supper smart families . but there was always a price to pay somewhere else it seemed. that's like they say to win at the big hunts you need a hot nosed tree slammer. that's not a price I am willing to pay I want to follow a hound with a good mouth lots of track speed and a real tree dog. nothing makes me happier than a dog treeing a coon quickly that another dog cant smell in a hunt. notice I said quickly. last years world hunt was a prime example of mabey if there had been dog in the final cast that had a overpowering nose mabey he could have treed one coon that's all he would have needed. noticed I said quickly I dont want a slow hound. and the main thing I have to have in a hound is brains if they don't have them they wont last long here.

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-12-2013 02:53 AM:

clyde

I really can't answer that. Really depends on how tight to start with and how tight You breed them, after all in the blueticks most of us call one dog a line lol. We all can have a different definition of line breeding also, I'm saying if you breed a uncle to niece then take a gyp from that mating back to her grandad/uncle then a son of them back to a .............it wont take to long in years and first thing you loose is size

__________________
" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

Posted by bluetickman2002 on 09-12-2013 02:59 AM:

Re: jmo

Btw first thing you get when linebreeding is uniform looks. Eventually if you dont outcross you have uniform 25lbs blue dogs that have litters of 4-5. That's if they can reproduce, literally speaking. [/B][/QUOTE]

dave dean has been line breeding longer than most anyone out there without outcrossing hammer 26 is not 25 pounds and is still throwing large litters while being breed to several females out of hammer 18

__________________
pr swampland wezze (hillbillyxlady)
pr swampland tilly (son x wezze)
pr swampland slippers (son x wezze)
pr swampland tiny(boomer x wezze)
pr swampland hank (nb levi X wezze )
pr swampland skeeter ( hank X tilly )
Bob Sietman 1-989-858-6455

Posted by Blue Iron on 09-12-2013 02:59 AM:

Re: clyde

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
I really can't answer that. Really depends on how tight to start with and how tight You breed them, after all in the blueticks most of us call one dog a line lol. We all can have a different definition of line breeding also, I'm saying if you breed a uncle to niece then take a gyp from that mating back to her grandad/uncle then a son of them back to a .............it wont take to long in years and first thing you loose is size

Interesting. I saw the latest Hammer dog back in May and he was a 70# dog. He's as inbred as any dog that's ever breathed air on God's green earth. He had several dogs there, all line bred for over 20 generations, none of them were small or deformed in any way.....

Posted by 408northville on 09-12-2013 03:01 AM:

Re: jmo

Tom,

The hounds in the picture have not had an outcross in forty seven years. The third pup from the left treed or caught 39 bobcats and several lions with his litter mates or relatives by the time he was two.
In hunting shape he weighs 65lbs on a scale. Nature does not have a problem with inbreeding man does. The best buck will breed his daughters and anything else related and will not think twice.
The secret is the selection of offspring, the best for breeding,they must have the proper confirmation, temperament, brains and performance ability. They must be free of defects and serious faults. And once again, they must be the best possible representatives of the breed. If not you will run into the problems you mention. It takes time to get uniform looks and it's not the first thing. This is how the breeds were separated to begin with.
You will have far more health problems and other issues with outcrosses.
JTG

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
AFTER reading some of these last post I figured out the problem. We argue to much or all the guys breeding these old sorry blues are so intelligent they have no common sense.

Btw first thing you get when linebreeding is uniform looks. Eventually if you dont outcross you have uniform 25lbs blue dogs that have litters of 4-5. That's if they can reproduce, literally speaking.

Posted by 408northville on 09-12-2013 03:02 AM:

Re: Re: clyde

Yep and mine are way more inbred than his.

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
Interesting. I saw the latest Hammer dog back in May and he was a 70# dog. He's as inbred as any dog that's ever breathed air on God's green earth. He had several dogs there, all line bred for over 20 generations, none of them were small or deformed in any way.....

Posted by bluetickman2002 on 09-12-2013 03:06 AM:

Re: Re: clyde

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
Interesting. I saw the latest Hammer dog back in May and he was a 70# dog. He's as inbred as any dog that's ever breathed air on God's green earth. He had several dogs there, all line bred for over 20 generations, none of them were small or deformed in any way.....

I woulda guessed hammer 26 was about 65 to 75 pounds was that who you where referring to ?

Posted by Blue Iron on 09-12-2013 03:08 AM:

Re: Re: Re: clyde

quote:
Originally posted by bluetickman2002
I woulda guessed hammer 26 was about 65 to 75 pounds was that who you where referring to ?

I'm not sure, Dave said "and that's old Hammer over there" LOL. He was a good sized hound that's for sure.

Posted by 408northville on 09-12-2013 03:10 AM:

Re: Breeding

Hi Stan, I love being around houndsman and even that pain in the neck Jesse. I hunt on high fence ranches in South and West Texas as a guest and to thin out lions and it's hard to take others with me. I do not even bring a gun other than a pistol I always carry.
I am working on another place that will be more guest friendly and than I can take some of you along.

quote:
Originally posted by StanleyWagner
John T G. I can go to Texas for a hunt. When is a good time? I would like to talk hounds in person. Thanks Stan. 606 267 5504.

Posted by bluetickman2002 on 09-12-2013 03:27 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: clyde

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
I'm not sure, Dave said "and that's old Hammer over there" LOL. He was a good sized hound that's for sure.

LOL yeah that is 26 I have seen a few good ones out of him one had a blue eye but he still trees coon

Posted by Blue Iron on 09-12-2013 03:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
Come over, there here, I will show them to you, not on coons but bobcats. coons are too easy for my hounds.

Why in the world would you say this then when somebody wants to "Come over and you show them on bobcats" you say you don't have anywhere to take them?

Posted by rance56 on 09-12-2013 03:53 AM:

Re: Re: jmo

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
Tom,

The hounds in the picture have not had an outcross in forty seven years. The third pup from the left treed or caught 39 bobcats and several lions with his litter mates or relatives by the time he was two.
In hunting shape he weighs 65lbs on a scale. Nature does not have a problem with inbreeding man does. The best buck will breed his daughters and anything else related and will not think twice.
The secret is the selection of offspring, the best for breeding,they must have the proper confirmation, temperament, brains and performance ability. They must be free of defects and serious faults. And once again, they must be the best possible representatives of the breed. If not you will run into the problems you mention. It takes time to get uniform looks and it's not the first thing. This is how the breeds were separated to begin with.
You will have far more health problems and other issues with outcrosses.
JTG

Just curious how many times have u had to switch lines during this time

And since u r such a googling genius maybe there is hope to leave those out dated breeding methods behind. Surely if things were done right what we need now is not the same as 50 years ago

__________________
the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:08 PM.

Pages (14): « First ... « 4 5 [6] 7 8 » ... Last »
Show all 330 posts from this thread on one page