UKC Forums - Crossbred breed

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Crossbred breed (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928308077)

Posted by Blacklabel on 03-21-2013 05:58 PM:

I liked it, just wanted to read what the pures had to say.

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Posted by nitehunter2004 on 03-21-2013 06:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blacklabel
I liked it, just wanted to read what the pures had to say.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 03-21-2013 06:14 PM:

I don't think any of us forgot them, nor did anyone on here state that a single registered dog, mutt or cross-breed wasn't talented or capable of being a real "coondog". You've provided a couple fine examples. And by the way... if Mac came from a Walker to Walker breeding, just one of them did not have registered proof of their pedigree, then he was not a "mutt" by definition. So that's not any of our arguments, either.

What we've been saying is that if we want there to be more breeds than a generic "coon hound" breed then we need to protect the specific traits that make a walker a walker or a redbne a redbone etc. So... we don't necessarily need to do away with single-registration, but we do need to manage it better. And that decision is governed by the breed associations. And if you don't like it, defend a rationale argument to the contrary. And if you are unssuccesful, sorry but that's how a democracy works. It's funny how some people will argue and get angry when a majority overrules them, and start calling them fascists or Nazis, but it's neither of those, it's democracy in action. However, if you got your way without a majority vote, that would be more akin to Naziism.

And the argument against cross-breeds, is simply it's a contradiction in terms. "Breeds" is in reference to pure bred or at least multi-generational. So there's pure breeds and all others. Splitting hairs on well, it's not a pure-breed but it's a controlled "mix" is trying to take a short-cut to being a recognized breed. Or simply wanting to dillute what it means to have a UKC "registered" dog, because then anyone could!

What you guys are asking, is for an organization whose charter is to:

"Our mission is to be the world's best registry of purebred dogs..."

to abandon it, and just register whatever you guys want. UKC is not a competition club, it's a registry club!

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 03-21-2013 06:17 PM:

Perhaps I'm the only one that has read the Mission statement of the Kenel Club to which I belong...

Because what you guys are saying, is that you want to change the Mission of this kennel club. And, you want to change the mission of the breed associations.

Really???

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Posted by Jonathan Crump on 03-21-2013 06:35 PM:

UKC can still be the best registry of pure breed dogs. If they would let you register a crossbreed as just that it would help keep your pure dogs pure.
I had a walker X bluetick and was going to register him as english but he died due to a hunting accident before I got the paperwork. The way I see it registering him english would be fine because the walkers and blueticks came from english hounds.
The men that started these breeds were much smarter than some of the breeders out there today just like our forefathers that wrote the Constitution were much smarter than what we have in Washington now.
I say honor the croosbreed (mutt) and let the offspring always be identified as such and the croosbreed should never be able to obtain a PR on its papers. JMHO

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 03-21-2013 06:46 PM:

Jonathon, I appreciate your opinion, but please help me understand it...

You want to register a cross-breed officialy as a cross-breed, meaning it's officially a mutt so-to-peak... why?

Is it simply because you want to compete it?

If so, why?

Why UKC, as opposed to the other options that already exist... NKC, PKC, local club hunts, etc.?

Is it because a UKC win or title means something?

And if in the future, anything can compete in a UKC event, do you think it will carry the same meaning???

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 03-21-2013 07:11 PM:

The Strength of the English Breed has always been it Cross Bred Hounds or within 2-4 Generations of the Cross Breed ..

The English Breed was about Dead till the 1950s and it was reborn and aprox. 85% was added Crossbreed Hounds .. And it continued thru to the 80s and 90s ..

You Would be very hard Pressed to Find ANY English Ped without these Hounds in it .. And the One on the Bottom Was a 1/4 French Sanitongeois Hound .. The Same Hound Blood I'm using ..

Plus How in the World did Vanzants Sam Get a Set of "PR" Papers when he was only 2 generations of a Cross Breeding

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Posted by shawn mullinnix on 03-21-2013 07:20 PM:

Hey Chuck, i'm kinda partial to those yellow papered dogs myself.

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Posted by chuck west on 03-21-2013 07:22 PM:

So all these pure bred just fell out of the sky back in the mid 1940s ,,, there were no crossbreeds back then ? Jonathan you say that a crossbred shouldn't have "PR" status ,why ? I thought achieved "PR" status after 3 generations of known parentage . And by the way Dave ,I looked back and I didn't call anyone a Nazi or a Fascist ,,, I know what a Democracy is Dave ,I raised my right hand and swore my oath to protect this Country and was Honorably Discharged many years ago.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 03-21-2013 07:30 PM:

Chuck - if you go looking for a fight, you'll likely find it. But only that first paragraph was directed at you. The rest was references to others comments on the last 5 pages of posts. So please don't make this into something it's not.

And no, "purebreds" are developed over time. So by your calculations, about 73 years. Let's not start short-cutting it.

Steve - are you arguing that the English "breed" was reborn, or just completely redefined??? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but your argument sort of sounds like a "cross-breed" breed, already exists and it's called "English".

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 03-21-2013 07:41 PM:

"Steve - are you arguing that the English "breed" was reborn, or just completely redefined??? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but your argument sort of sounds like a "cross-breed" breed, already exists and it's called "English". "

Lets just say There are readily Accepted by the English Breeds Assoc and By UKC as well.. So where are these Purest of Pure UKC Hounds ??

Posted by deschmidt27 on 03-21-2013 07:52 PM:

Must be the Black and Tans, or at the very least, you can't see the specks on them!

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 03-21-2013 07:55 PM:

Could Be !! lol

Posted by ssgied on 03-21-2013 08:44 PM:

How would recognizing a cross breed effect any breeders pure breds. cross breeding is not something new, and some people have built a breeding program around them. I think all that is really being asked for is to allow them to compete side by side with the pure bred dogs.

Posted by Jonathan Crump on 03-21-2013 09:29 PM:

Chuck there are single registered dogs with known parentage that dont get the PR. Give the purist something to hol on to. PR dont mean squat to me because I have never seen a set of pretty papers tree a coon.

Jonathon, I appreciate your opinion, but please help me understand it...

You want to register a cross-breed officialy as a cross-breed, meaning it's officially a mutt so-to-peak... why?

Is it simply because you want to compete it?

If so, why?

Why UKC, as opposed to the other options that already exist... NKC, PKC, local club hunts, etc.?

Is it because a UKC win or title means something?

And if in the future, anything can compete in a UKC event, do you think it will carry the same meaning???

Why not register them where owners can hunt them. Are you scared to compete against a croosbreed? I dont care about competition hunting but I do however like the hunt tests. I may want to take my next hound to a hunt test but if nothing changes I guess I will single register him English. There are only 2 UKC clubs within 40 miles of me and 1 AKC club.

Posted by chuck west on 03-21-2013 09:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Crump
Chuck there are single registered dogs with known parentage that dont get the PR. Give the purist something to hol on to. PR dont mean squat to me because I have never seen a set of pretty papers tree a coon.

Jonathon, I appreciate your opinion, but please help me understand it...

You want to register a cross-breed officialy as a cross-breed, meaning it's officially a mutt so-to-peak... why?

Is it simply because you want to compete it?

If so, why?

Why UKC, as opposed to the other options that already exist... NKC, PKC, local club hunts, etc.?

Is it because a UKC win or title means something?

And if in the future, anything can compete in a UKC event, do you think it will carry the same meaning???

Why not register them where owners can hunt them. Are you scared to compete against a croosbreed? I dont care about competition hunting but I do however like the hunt tests. I may want to take my next hound to a hunt test but if nothing changes I guess I will single register him English. There are only 2 UKC clubs within 40 miles of me and 1 AKC club.

Jonathon ,Thank you for your honest response to this . I too have had hounds that had no "PR" in front of their names that were coon treeing hard treedogs,, I really don't know who is wanting to start this Xbreed dogs ,but if the breed associations all agree to it and the UKC does too then what is all the people in a uproar about ? As a young man I remember alot of the hunts WON by the some grade dog coming in with a higher score than the registered dogs and I'm talking about hunts that would draw 200plus dogs to it. Well over half of the dogs were grade (crossbred ) dogs, I'm all for doing what ever it takes to get the hunt numbers up .

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Posted by bigtimberkennel on 03-21-2013 10:20 PM:

The poll speaks for itself,TREE MY DOG what ever it is registered or crossed,all breeds either have it or not......breed a coondog too a coondog,I've had both.

Posted by Maniac on 03-21-2013 10:27 PM:

IDK NO WAT SOME PEOPLE R THINKING. ALL HOUNDS R CROSS BREED THERE IS NO PURE BREED

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 03-22-2013 02:29 PM:

i don't see what the big deal. I don't think anyone has asked for crossbreeds to be registered as a breed, just be recognized in or to hunt in the hunts. they would be labeled as crossbred and there for the numbers on paper could also be identified as such. I think fear has lots to do with it. tree dog to tree dog crosses only. matter of fact you could even say that both parents had to be UKC registered or the cross would not be considered to hunt.

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Posted by georgef072007 on 03-22-2013 05:55 PM:

How about some UKC input on this one ? Is this ever going to be a possibility ?

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Posted by B Downing on 03-22-2013 06:08 PM:

BIG NO FROM ME! I'll just leave it at that.

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Posted by chuck west on 03-22-2013 06:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shawn mullinnix

Hey Chuck, i'm kinda partial to those yellow papered dogs myself.

Double Awt Nuck

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Posted by chuck west on 03-22-2013 06:10 PM:

Good looking hound Shawn ,What's he out of ,If I may ask ?

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Posted by shawn mullinnix on 03-22-2013 06:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by chuck west
Good looking hound Shawn ,What's he out of ,If I may ask ?

Hey Chuck, his Dam was one of the pups out of Bad Habit and the Blue female (Fly) Cliff Day had in Kentucky. That was the first litter of Cross-Breds recognized by PKC. His Sire, RedHill KnuckleHead, is some Cross-Bred stuff i have been raising for almost 30 years (Walker X Bluetick) I just recently bred him to his half sister and hope to have pups by the first part of May. Thanks for asking.

Posted by Jonathan Crump on 03-22-2013 08:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by georgef072007
How about some UKC input on this one ? Is this ever going to be a possibility ?

They are more worried about the colors of the dog than what the dog does in the woods. If you breed a Bluetick to a Black n Tan and document it as a crossbreed isn't that better than registering 3 from the litter Bluetick and 3 Black n Tan. If the big breeders weren't afraid of getting beat by the crossbreed this would probably be a non issue.

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