UKC Forums - Judge this??

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Posted by englishbuddy on 09-29-2012 08:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
Just say that the dogs were recast off of the tree. They run a few hundred yards, strike, then go back towards previously scored tree, and are DECLARED treed. Then they leave, on the way in there. How would you score them then?

We can if an if an if all day !!!!!!!!
Thats not what he said !!!!!! He said all dogs were seen on the original dead tree of dog c and moved over to dogs a an b's original dead tree ....... If the dogs were seen on the dead tree its a dead situation.

Posted by Rip on 09-29-2012 08:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Not saying you are wrong but would like to see your opinion backed up by a rule or advisor column or an opinion from UKC. as to why the tree points are deleted and not the strike points at the time the dogs are observed to be on a dead tree.

This is a weird thing and the way the rules are written you would have to delete and after further consideration I think you would just go ahead and delete strike and tree imediately and then restrike the dog if it opens after leaving. It's a really wierd situation that a dog would leave after you see it on a previously scored tree.

Kind of like that loophole that used to exist before they changed the wording of a dog that was shut out. Before the new wording the dog could run 15 different tracks and do all sorts of things with no punnishment because his strike points were not officially scorable until he treed on a different tree. Now they have changed the wording to make the dog accountable unless he trees on the same tree. Just a little change in the wording made a big difference.

That's the same thing here. You saw the dog on a previously scored tree so as soon as you know it was a previously scored tree those points are deleted.

UKC could just add one word to the rule and say "handled" at a previously scored tree and that would then allow you to minus the dog for leaving the tree.

Again if you hadn't have already seen and knew for a fact the dog was on the previously scored tree then leaving the tree would come into play but since there is no "shine time" for a previously scored tree like a regular tree and they say "no points for dogs going to a previously scored tree" then they are deleted as soon as you see them on the same tree because the scoring occurs as soon as you see them on the same tree instead of "shine time".

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 09-29-2012 10:21 PM:

If the SOB leaves a tree he is called TREED on. He is minused. It doesn't matter what kinda tree he's treed on. You aren't scoring the tree, your scoring the dog for leaving.

Posted by Rip on 09-29-2012 10:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
If the SOB leaves a tree he is called TREED on. He is minused. It doesn't matter what kinda tree he's treed on. You aren't scoring the tree, your scoring the dog for leaving.

Once you SEE him on a previously scored tree it is immediately deleted, just like at the end of the hunt etc. There are no points to score once you see them on a previously scored tree.

Now UKC may have an Advisor that says different that I am unaware of, but as the rules are written, word for words, those points don't exist so they can't be scored.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-29-2012 10:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
If I'm judging, and you tree your dog, and he is not treed when we arrive, he is minused. Closed tree, previously scored tree, anything. If you tree your dog, it is supposed to be treed..... Jmo

See now that right there is the problem. We have been trying to Judge according to the rules on the card. Not according to the world of big Harold.

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 09-30-2012 12:42 AM:

Yeah, I'm proud you know you live in BIG HAROLD'S world. You stated earlier that, in PKC, if they go back, they are minused. NO buddy. The second time they return they're SCRATCHED. It's people like you that make these hunts miserable. Take your minus

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-30-2012 01:05 AM:

DELETED..............by the rules..........this thread has been beat to death. A question was asked, it has been answered over and over again. Some don't like the true answer but by the rules points are deleted.

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Posted by l.lyle on 09-30-2012 04:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
See now that right there is the problem. We have been trying to Judge according to the rules on the card. Not according to the world of big Harold.

This is getting funnier. If a dog is treed and befor you get there he leaves and is Minussed for it .. period.. end of story. Now if the dog is gone how are you going to score a tree when you don't even know what tree it was? LOL this is funny. And why would you shine it to score it if the dog had not been handled even if you could guess what tree it was?

Posted by Rip on 09-30-2012 04:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
This is getting funnier. If a dog is treed and befor you get there he leaves and is Minussed for it .. period.. end of story. Now if the dog is gone how are you going to score a tree when you don't even know what tree it was? LOL this is funny. And why would you shine it to score it if the dog had not been handled even if you could guess what tree it was?

Well yes if you dont know what tree it's on it is minused. People have said that over and over again.

BUT that's not what the origional scoring question was. They said they waked up to the tree and clearly saw the dog on a previously scored tree. At that point no points are available, they are deleted because the dog was on a previously scored tree. I posted the rule on here word for word. It doesn't say the dog has to be handled, it just says no points period. No points means not even minus points. The dog was clearly seen on the closed tree so the dog didn't have any points to minus.

Just like if a dog trees on a tree it was shut out on strike on. Even if it's a possum you can not minus it's strike points cause it doesn't have any to minus. It only has tree points.

It's just a quirk in the rules.

Now UKC can say the dog has to be handled and that would be how it should be scored, but until they make that ruling officially we have to score it the way the rules say and they clearly say no points ever for a dog on a previously scored tree. There is no shine time to start on a previously scored tree so they are "scored" as soon as they are seen on the previously scored tree. That's why you don't have to wait the five minutes or even call them treed on a previously scored tree.

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Posted by Dale Young on 09-30-2012 04:49 PM:

RULE PROPOSAL :

All trees scored must be cut down before leaving so previously scored trees will not exist to cause confusion / arguments.

Just in case : This is a joke.

Posted by englishbuddy on 09-30-2012 05:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Young
RULE PROPOSAL :

All trees scored must be cut down before leaving so previously scored trees will not exist to cause confusion / arguments.

Just in case : This is a joke.

LMAO X2

Posted by jweaver on 10-01-2012 03:29 AM:

Well? Dont everybody back out now, its getting kinda interesting! Lol!

Posted by l.lyle on 10-01-2012 03:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Young
RULE PROPOSAL :

All trees scored must be cut down before leaving so previously scored trees will not exist to cause confusion / arguments.

Just in case : This is a joke.

I see what you mean because a tree that has been scored ain't a tree no more.

Posted by englishbuddy on 10-01-2012 04:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
I see what you mean because a tree that has been scored ain't a tree no more.

Not even if you watch them run a coon up a scored tree !!!

Posted by stillwater farm on 10-01-2012 06:31 AM:

Ok,we all agree that if dogs return to a previously scored tree you can go get them without declaring the dogs treed?If the majority of cast believe they went back but someone does tree one of the dogs do we still have to wait the 5 to go get them?

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-01-2012 11:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
Ok,we all agree that if dogs return to a previously scored tree you can go get them without declaring the dogs treed?If the majority of cast believe they went back but someone does tree one of the dogs do we still have to wait the 5 to go get them?

Not if the majority of the cast votes that they think the dog is on a previously scored tree.

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Posted by ssgied on 10-01-2012 12:49 PM:

Mark every scored tree with those trail markers that illuminate when you shine them with your light, then someone would be accoused of moving a marker.

Posted by BIG HAROLD on 10-01-2012 03:39 PM:

Saturday night, night champion cast. Dog A is struck and treed. Walking into dog A, he leaves. Look in the tree. POSSUM. Is he scratched or minused for leaving tree?

Posted by Charles Pullen on 10-01-2012 04:18 PM:

Minus , the tree was not scored / shined . Therefore it could have been a coon , den , etc ......No reason to shine the tree if he left . He could left the tree when the coon bailed out when the slick tail got after the coon . JUST KIDDING ....... it's minus . Now if he was SEEN with the slick tail on the ground then left , then yes scratch .

Posted by stillwater farm on 10-01-2012 04:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
Saturday night, night champion cast. Dog A is struck and treed. Walking into dog A, he leaves. Look in the tree. POSSUM. Is he scratched or minused for leaving tree?

UKC official answer is????

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Posted by Tully on 10-01-2012 04:56 PM:

nothing to score

Because I withdrew and "corrected" my dog for returning to a tree, and more for leaving that tree!

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 10-01-2012 05:35 PM:

He LEFT me a tree, that he was declared treed on. He was minused, just like the scenario that started this post.

Posted by englishbuddy on 10-01-2012 06:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
He LEFT me a tree, that he was declared treed on. He was minused, just like the scenario that started this post.

Had the tree with the possum already been scored on ??????

This post started as a set of trees that had been scored on !!!!!

The tree in your case was minused before the shine time started, so there could have been a coon in thet tree as well ... Way to much ifs goin on here

Posted by Rip on 10-01-2012 08:21 PM:

There is a huge difference here. Previously scored tree has no "shine time" it is scored as soon as you know the dog is on a previously scored tree. It's a delete as soon as you see that so by the time the dog left those points should have already been deleted so there were NO POINTS TO MINUS.

No different than a dog coming into a tree it was shut out on, it was shut out so it has NO STRIKE POINTS TO MINUS.

As for the other situation, don't ever put a light in a tree until shine time period.

Now if you seen a NTCH with a possum, at any time except coming in after the judge arrives it's scratched, does't matter what else is going on. If you know for a fact the dog ran, molested or treed off game at any time you have to scratch the dog.

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 10-01-2012 09:40 PM:

Cough cough BS cough

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