UKC Forums - "Finley River" questions.

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-- "Finley River" questions. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=8532)

Posted by wkfii on 10-26-2006 09:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terry willford
............Gr.Nt.Ch. Finley River Mike
........Gr.Nt.Ch. Finley River Boone
.............Pec River Pat(finley river joe)
....Gr.Nt.Ch. Twin Rivers Dusty
........Nt.Ch. Twin Rivers Molly(double old harry)
Nt.Ch. Willfords Wild Horace
...........Gr.Nt.Ch.Wessels wild Casey(finley river dan&pete)
.......Gr.Nt.Ch.Wessels Wild Ozzy
............Gr.Nt.Ch.Mcnights Queen(lipper)
....Willfords Wild Speck
.............Gr.Nt.Ch.Wessels wild Casey(finley river dan&pete)
.........Willfords wild Fire
...............Nt.Ch.Borahs miss Pac(pac man & crossroads killer)

What do you all consider Finley River breeding?

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Track and Tree with Accuracy and Determination.

Posted by terry willford on 10-28-2006 12:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by wkfii
What do you all consider Finley River breeding?

I put that pedigree out there because its what I got, I personaly feel that yes it is strong finley river breeding. Many people dont realize that the Wessels Casey dog was line bred Finley River. Having hunted with Casey alot I can assure you he was one heck of a hound. Now Pac-Man, some will dispute his pedigree and only Mr. Bellar knows for sure but going off of memory doesnt he go back to Kentucky River Jack? Wasnt Crossroads Killer a grandson of F.R. Chief? Im not up on River Bend Flag I think he went back to Normans Coon Stopper, and thats about all I know. This dog could just as easily be called R.B. Flag bred too I suppose or Merchant bred as he goes back to Barney several times. wkfii poses a good question as to what is considered Finley River breeding? Is Lonnie Mears and John Monroe the only authorities on Finley River Hounds, while I admire what Lonnie has done I know for sure he wouldnt own my dog as he doesnt have the conformation for showing. But John Monroe is advertising a grandson to Finley Boone at stud, my dog is also a grandson to old Boone. So you be the judge, I got big shoulders and can take the critisizm. Thanks

Posted by wkfii on 10-28-2006 11:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by terry willford
I put that pedigree out there because its what I got, I personaly feel that yes it is strong finley river breeding. Many people dont realize that the Wessels Casey dog was line bred Finley River. Having hunted with Casey alot I can assure you he was one heck of a hound. Now Pac-Man, some will dispute his pedigree and only Mr. Bellar knows for sure but going off of memory doesnt he go back to Kentucky River Jack? Wasnt Crossroads Killer a grandson of F.R. Chief? Im not up on River Bend Flag I think he went back to Normans Coon Stopper, and thats about all I know. This dog could just as easily be called R.B. Flag bred too I suppose or Merchant bred as he goes back to Barney several times. wkfii poses a good question as to what is considered Finley River breeding? Is Lonnie Mears and John Monroe the only authorities on Finley River Hounds, while I admire what Lonnie has done I know for sure he wouldnt own my dog as he doesnt have the conformation for showing. But John Monroe is advertising a grandson to Finley Boone at stud, my dog is also a grandson to old Boone. So you be the judge, I got big shoulders and can take the critisizm. Thanks

I guess you heard about Pac-Man too. I was not sure how closely held that information was or whether it is in fact accurate.

I guess I am trying to make two points. A fair amount of the detractors fail to realize that Finley River breeding is either significant or substantial in their hounds' breeding. Probably in most cases that Finley breeding is driving the hunting ability of the particular hound in question. Another label is just being slapped on what they have.

I have one little gyp that is loaded with Finley River breeding, but she also has one Lipper line and one Sackett line. She is very rough coated and small. Looks old syle in every fashion. I don't know that I consider her Finley River bred. She is for sure influenced by those lines, but I am not sure that I would call her that.

I guess I have another question (l0l), what do you consider Finley River bred in the first place?

__________________
Bill Fulmer

Member of the NAADP

Track and Tree with Accuracy and Determination.

Posted by terry willford on 10-28-2006 01:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wkfii
I guess you heard about Pac-Man too. I was not sure how closely held that information was or whether it is in fact accurate.

I guess I am trying to make two points. A fair amount of the detractors fail to realize that Finley River breeding is either significant or substantial in their hounds' breeding. Probably in most cases that Finley breeding is driving the hunting ability of the particular hound in question. Another label is just being slapped on what they have.

I have one little gyp that is loaded with Finley River breeding, but she also has one Lipper line and one Sackett line. She is very rough coated and small. Looks old syle in every fashion. I don't know that I consider her Finley River bred. She is for sure influenced by those lines, but I am not sure that I would call her that.

I guess I have another question (l0l), what do you consider Finley River bred in the first place?

You raise a valid point, I really consider the way the hound hunts, maybe F.R. isnt so much breeding anymore as it is the way a dog hunts. This will probably be more true in years to come as the old lines get further and further back. To be honest with you I would rather call him casey bred, the next generation is definately even more casey bred. But he does hunt more like a Finley River Type Dog than a Casey type dog.

Posted by wkfii on 10-28-2006 05:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terry willford
You raise a valid point, I really consider the way the hound hunts, maybe F.R. isnt so much breeding anymore as it is the way a dog hunts. This will probably be more true in years to come as the old lines get further and further back. To be honest with you I would rather call him casey bred, the next generation is definately even more casey bred. But he does hunt more like a Finley River Type Dog than a Casey type dog.

Finley River Dan and Finley River Buck would be included.

__________________
Bill Fulmer

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Track and Tree with Accuracy and Determination.

Posted by Robert Starke on 10-31-2006 04:00 PM:

Terry Willford Bill Fulmer

Good discussion. Finley River is known for good trackdogs. The oldtimers crossed them on Johnson's Banjo and Merchant's Banjo II to get more tree power. Those crosses worked well. Most FR dogs have Banjo lines in them and vice versa at this time. The secret is crossing those lines back and forth to get the result you are looking for.

Posted by wkfii on 10-31-2006 06:31 PM:

Re: Terry Willford Bill Fulmer

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Starke
Good discussion. Finley River is known for good trackdogs. The oldtimers crossed them on Johnson's Banjo and Merchant's Banjo II to get more tree power. Those crosses worked well. Most FR dogs have Banjo lines in them and vice versa at this time. The secret is crossing those lines back and forth to get the result you are looking for.

I have been working on my Breeder's Standard database. I have seen the Finley River and Banjo II cross in Whitey's pedigree more than once. Very little PR breeding. Dick Hershberger's hounds are also represented quite a bit.

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Posted by Russell Boyette on 10-31-2006 06:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wkfii
I guess you heard about Pac-Man too. I was not sure how closely held that information was or whether it is in fact accurate.

I had also heard this from a source that owned one of the Pac-Man was supposed to be out of. I believe it was a man from Missouri that owned the young hound(or papers) that eventually became either Pac-Man or his sire, i cant rmember which. It's been too long, and i was too young to remember all the details of the story(more concerned with hunting then a pedigree then i suppose)

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Posted by terry willford on 10-31-2006 10:00 PM:

The fact that some of the pedigrees behind these dogs is unkown should not hinder the future breeding, in fact we should acknowledge that they might not be right and move forwards. Lone Pine Lady is one that I have heard from a good source to have had false papers put on her. "my source" claims that Lady was from a Black and Tan x Redtick cross. Would that explain the black headed ticked up Lone Pine dogs? I would like to see the pedigree data base when your done with it, it would be highly interesting.

Posted by wkfii on 11-01-2006 05:25 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by terry willford
The fact that some of the pedigrees behind these dogs is unkown should not hinder the future breeding, in fact we should acknowledge that they might not be right and move forwards. Lone Pine Lady is one that I have heard from a good source to have had false papers put on her. "my source" claims that Lady was from a Black and Tan x Redtick cross. Would that explain the black headed ticked up Lone Pine dogs? I would like to see the pedigree data base when your done with it, it would be highly interesting.

I don't know that it is unknown. I have info as to the sire of a questioned hound and one of the brothers. Shame it cannot be confirmed by DNA. But, also, in another way it is known. Those hounds were bred based upon the production of meat and hides. I would think that that would be a truly selective process, not based upon handling or circle points.

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Posted by terry willford on 11-01-2006 09:27 PM:

Bill If I have this correct according to the information I have so far would this be accurate:
..............Nt. Ch Finley River Pete
Gr. Nt. Ch Magills Lone Pine Jill(5/16 Bluetick,1/4 Black and Tan, 1/4 Redtick, 1/64 Redbone)
.............Duvalls Lone Pine Lady

Posted by wkfii on 11-02-2006 12:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by terry willford
Bill If I have this correct according to the information I have so far would this be accurate:
..............Nt. Ch Finley River Pete
Gr. Nt. Ch Magills Lone Pine Jill(5/16 Bluetick,1/4 Black and Tan, 1/4 Redtick, 1/64 Redbone)
.............Duvalls Lone Pine Lady

Is not Pete, the elder, where the black and white Clover look came from? Someone told me something to that effect. Pete has that Forrester's Sue in his pedigree? You know Sue, she was that Vaughn bred Bluetick that was single registered as a Walker. My information was that she was a very good treehound. Of course Vaughn acknowledged the presence of Goodman Running Walker in his breeding program.

I hope Skyblu does not find this thread, she will be carping about this genetic mud. LOL

Do you have old Pete's pedigree?

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Posted by Lone Pine JB on 11-02-2006 01:51 AM:

Actually I think it was Lone Pine Lady that had 'incorrect' papers on her. At any rate, I love my Lone Pine Dogs.

-----------------------------------------------NiteCh Finley River Chief
------------------------------------NiteCh Finley River Pete
-----------------------------------------------NiteCh Finley River Bell

-----------------------------------------------NiteCh Ch Heverins Kenton Speed
-----------------------------------PR' Duvalls Lone Pine Lady
-----------------------------------------------Heverins Melody Ann

Posted by wkfii on 11-02-2006 04:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Forest
Actually I think it was Lone Pine Lady that had 'incorrect' papers on her. At any rate, I love my Lone Pine Dogs.

-----------------------------------------------NiteCh Finley River Chief
------------------------------------NiteCh Finley River Pete
-----------------------------------------------NiteCh Finley River Bell

-----------------------------------------------NiteCh Ch Heverins Kenton Speed
-----------------------------------PR' Duvalls Lone Pine Lady
-----------------------------------------------Heverins Melody Ann

I think that there were or are two Finley River Pete hounds. I think that you are refering to the older of the two? I am pretty sure about Forrester's Sue and that she was a Vaughn bred Bluetick that looked like a Bluetick. Indiana Boone Boy was Vaughn bred, but came out of the oven a Walker in color. What I don't know is how Sue ties into the pedigrees.

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Posted by Lone Pine JB on 11-02-2006 02:20 PM:

yeah, that's the old F.R. Pete.

Posted by terry willford on 11-02-2006 08:49 PM:

I think looking back over this thread that Finley River Bell was 1/2 bluetick and that old Chief had some bluetick, Now Lone Pine Jill is Logans wild Julies mother, Julie is Logans Wild Clovers mother. If UKC changed the Pedigree on Lady would that change the "pr" status on any of the all grand studs today? Doesnt a dog have to have a known UKC 6 generation pedigree to have 'pr' status? As far as genetic mud goes, sometimes its fun to play in the mud.

Posted by Mike Jones on 11-02-2006 11:34 PM:

Genetic.....

what???

This ole boy didn't worry about it!!

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Posted by terry willford on 11-02-2006 11:44 PM:

Re: Genetic.....

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Jones
what???

This ole boy didn't worry about it!!

Have any of todays dogs been traced back to old Ben Lilly's pack? Got to be some left out in the west.

Posted by wkfii on 11-03-2006 04:48 AM:

Re: Genetic.....

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Jones
what???

This ole boy didn't worry about it!!

That ole boy could be the founding father of the NAADP. LOL

I think it would be interesting, at least to me, to define "Finley River breeding." I went back and reviewed and worked on my database and looked at some of my seven generation pedigrees. Is Finley River somewhat the same as "old style breeding or is Finley River a line that comes out of the Ozark Mountains (i.e. Chiefs sire and dam were both single registered), or is Finley River breeding associated with a particular circle of friends or breeders?'' Did Queen Lou via Lipper create a division in Walker breeding? What do you all think?

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Posted by Mike Jones on 11-03-2006 05:00 AM:

Lilly Pack

terry...I was reading somewhere and it said a pack of big game hounds could be traced back to some of those dogs. I will try to find where it was a post a link.

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Posted by terry willford on 11-03-2006 06:05 AM:

Re: Re: Genetic.....

quote:
Originally posted by wkfii
That ole boy could be the founding father of the NAADP. LOL

I think it would be interesting, at least to me, to define "Finley River breeding." I went back and reviewed and worked on my database and looked at some of my seven generation pedigrees. Is Finley River somewhat the same as "old style breeding or is Finley River a line that comes out of the Ozark Mountains (i.e. Chiefs sire and dam were both single registered), or is Finley River breeding associated with a particular circle of friends or breeders?'' Did Queen Lou via Lipper create a division in Walker breeding? What do you all think?

I think the answer to all your questions could be yes.

Posted by wkfii on 11-05-2006 02:28 PM:

Ozark Preacher

Would you all consider Preacher to be Finley River?

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Posted by terry willford on 11-05-2006 05:32 PM:

Re: Ozark Preacher

quote:
Originally posted by wkfii
Would you all consider Preacher to be Finley River?

What was Preachers pedigree, I cant remember it. Ive hunted a few dogs with preacher in the 3rd gen.

Posted by wkfii on 11-06-2006 10:43 PM:

Do you notice that these two look similiar? Mr. Quick?

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Posted by wkfii on 11-07-2006 10:31 PM:

Re: Re: Ozark Preacher

quote:
Originally posted by terry willford
What was Preachers pedigree, I cant remember it. Ive hunted a few dogs with preacher in the 3rd gen.

Well here it is. I'm still working out the kinks of Breeders' Standard. If anyone has pedigree that goes back further and pictures, they would be appreciated.

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