UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Inbreeding Question (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=79960)

I have spent many hours on the phone with Mr Kemmer. He is probly the finest example of a hunting dog breeder that ever lived. I didnt bring him up before, because he breed curs. However the princibles are the same for Mt Curs as for hounds.
At the time Blondi was born, Mr Kemmer was a pro guide. He required large numbers of curs, because of his guide bussiness. Mr. Kemmer told me that Blondi was the most perfict cur he had ever seen. She was completely natural, and required no training. He breed her to a few males but was never satisfyed with the outcome. He started breeding her to the best of her sons. He never outcrossed agian. Blondi was an example of genetic mutation, although it seems a resesive one. Which by the way most mutations are. Had Mr. Kemmer not inbreed, that strain of curs would never had existed. It may have come out once in a while, but never would have develoed into a breed. Beleive me the Kemmer Stock Mt curs are a completely different breed than the other curs. As they have drifted from the watchful eye of Mr Kemmer, they have lost some of there constincy. Due mostly to outcrosses. However when the strain first came about, littermates were almost carben copys of each other.From colar to ability. That is inbreeding at its best.
Untill the last 15 or 20 years, inbreeding was unthinkable. The old breeders were totaly agianst it. However look at how far we have came in that time. We get whole litters of steller preformers, 20 years ago if 1 dog made it, that was a good cross. A few inlightened indiviguals like Mr Kemmer, Kelly Stagner, and Mr Giddings, are responsible for the begining of where we are today. Inbreeding was there most reliable tool, and they werent afraid to use it.
By the way the AQHA beleives that the Impressive gene was a mutation, and required testing of any horse that carried his blood. They REMOVED this gene from the breed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sheepster
I disagree on that one. I dont think dogs today are far better. But thats just from what I've seen, I aint seen it all.

---

well, I, uhh, I been hunting about 11 years............ sooooooooooooo............... I never thought about it like that. Hmmmmmmmmm i guess your right on that one. Ha!!!!!!!!
Ask me a few more years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

__________________
In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
-- Mark Twain

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
Justin if you aren't trying to improve what you have then you are going backwards, you can't duplicate any dog, dogs are far better today, no comparison.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sheepster
I disagree on that one. I dont think dogs today are far better. But thats just from what I've seen, I aint seen it all.

---

Justin Smith

quote:

---

.......letting a hound pup play with a Rottweiller aint gonna turn out good .... it may look like one thing to you but dogs speak "dog" ... and Rottweillers and their type do things for entirely different reasons than hounds and you will see the effects of what you are doing even more so as time goes on.....

---

__________________
Because I can.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justin Smith
Does he cull those seven after he keeps the other three ?

---

northen blue

sound like you have bred a few good ones but tell me something how do you develope a strain of any animal and lock in the wanted genes in your line the only way i know is to inbreed back into your line. and yes most sucessful breeders of any animal use inbreeding to fix wanted and needed traits. there is no other way as each time you go out of your family you add more and differant genes that you have to sort out again
now the question is how close is too close and how far out of the line is too far out.
if you don't think inbreeding has been used foreever in domestic animals your badly mistaken or else how were differant breeds made abreed is a group of animals,planys and birds that have similar appearance and traits.
people are not animals and forever there has been the moral issues regarding inbreeding but there where it stops.

__________________
the rooster will crow again.. keep them english and keep them looking up
email minihorse@hotmail.com

justin

just like joe newlin said the key to improving your line of dogs is the answer ,you have to start with the best available, linebreed them and keep the best and junk the rest,
you can go on forever inbreeding and selecting rhe best as you go on your culls will get less and less

__________________
the rooster will crow again.. keep them english and keep them looking up
email minihorse@hotmail.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
Justin, it isn't difficult to build a family through linebreeding however you loose the oppertunity to progress in ability at the same rate as the rest of the breed after the third generation of your breeding unless you use a family of dogs that equals or excells your family of dogs and then you should only use the best that both have to offer to incorperate back into your desired family. this my humble and uninformed opion.

---

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justin Smith
When livestock geneticists invent a cow that has beef like an Angus , gives milk like a Holstein and bucks like Bodacious then I will listen to them ....until then , what can they teach coonhound breeders ?

---

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

I've had one

I had a BLK dog that had the same father and grandfather. He was the hardest treeing dog you ever did see, but he wouldn't hunt far. As far as i could tell....... He acted fine. His papers said inbreed.

__________________
Jamie Jenkins
GySgt Active Duty Marine Corps
910-340-0793
That Dogs Tree'd Boys!
Richlands, NC

Justin,

I have to disagree with one of your statements to Joe.

"Joe , selection is key .. but the knack for being able to select the good ones is born into you .. if not , you can't learn it."

One of the most powerful selection tools available to breeders and the hardest to get is family knowledge. It is hardest to get because it takes time, hard work, and commitment. There is absolutely no way possible you can have a working knowledge of a dog family without learning. Now, I may concede that having the desire to work hard enough to obtain family knowledge just might be born into you, but to say you can't learn it is wrong.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Joe, you have to build your foundation with dogs that has the same traits and the only way to do this is raise these pups and train them, taught habits are to often used as traits.

Larry you will have to overlook Justin. Here he is running down someones breeding program, knows all about it, and in the meantime he is hunting a Smithhurst B & T that is so in/linebreed that the dog only has 6 names in 13 generations. Care to tell us any different Justin?

__________________
Because I can.

If that is where Justin is, he may be nearing completion of his objective. As you progress further your ped would be less and less exiting.

Perhaps he has what he wants, and is trying to duplicate.

I will not run someone elses dogs down or even render an opinion untill I have hunted with them.

Zace the only worse than Justins dog would be a duplicate of it. Was a nice dog but him and Paul ruined it. I'm sure though that since you are in MN and he's in OK, he'd welcome you for a hunt. But I bet if you lived 35 miles from him it would be excuse after excuse why he can't go tonight.

And for the record he has never in his life breed one litter of puppies.

__________________
Because I can.

Flipper, what's worse Justin questioning other peoples opinions or you saying things that aren't true?

I know Justin Smith. Any dog he ever had was ruined. And I tell you why. Because he is a know it all that knows nothing. If you think I'm lying, ask him about the gyp he had at 9 months old that was doing really good when he bought her. Run and tree her own coons. By the time she was 18 months she to was to scared to come out of her dog box. After I figured out who he was I went back and done a search. Gosh Almighty at the things that boy has told. Justin I know you and you know me if you'd think about it for a minute. Tell these guys the truth about yourself or do you want me to? I dare you to tell everybody I'm lying. Because me and you know who is lying. Don't we.

__________________
Because I can.

well flipper ole justin sure sounds like a bad boy. How did you get involved with such a charater?

Through hunting. He talks alot but can't back it up. I hear birds of a feather flock together. How do you know him?

__________________
Because I can.

oh,I don't know him I'm just following your lead, you're the one that was hunting with him.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Flipper
Through hunting. He talks alot but can't back it up. I hear birds of a feather flock together. How do you know him?

---

__________________
Mike Trevis

Mike, I think Flipper and Justin may have some back ground together, maybe she can help you out if she doesn't mind.

I think, I think that he may still have a ounce of dignity and come clean with everyone. How about it Justin? Do you want to tell them about how much hunting you do and how your dogs really are? Do you even still hunt or own a dog? I have'nt heard from you in a little while. You don't call like you used to.

__________________
Because I can.