UKC Forums - Should silent dogs be scratched?

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Posted by patches9452 on 10-20-2011 03:30 AM:

it seems pretty obvious that the track is being bred out of the hounds and replaced with tree.... hince silent and tight mouth hounds... sure they can win when they dont know how or cant run anything but a smoking hot track... but think where it will end up if people just keep breeding this way.... keep them balanced and still create a winner

Posted by Blue Iron on 10-20-2011 03:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
And if all we wanted is to tree we would go squirrel hunting. but coon hounds are supose to do both. That doesn't mean they have to be slow about it. Tracking conditions and type of coon is what determins track speed. That and quality of hound. Now if that is all your hound can do is run threw the woods till it finds a hot track and put it up quick then that is what it has to do. But in thin coon a hound like that is going to have problems. It does make a dog look fast when the track isn't over 100 yards long when it strikes the coon.

Brother I've lived and coon hunted in the deep south since I started so I know thin coon. I hunt Blueticks so I don't like a hot nosed dog by any means, I just personally believe a tighter mouth dog is more effective. Ever tried running while you're yelling? Try it and see if you run any faster when you don't say much.....

Like I said I want to tree the most coons as fast as possible and I believe a tighter mouthed dog will do that, more so in thin coon than in thick coon.

By the way the dog I own now and love to hunt is a very open dog, more so than I prefer but he tree's a heap of coons and does it quick, but if I could change one thing about him I'd quiet him down. Nothing like a big bawl as soon as they smell a coon, another 300 yards later, another 200 yards later and BOOM locate and tree.

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Posted by davery on 10-20-2011 03:38 AM:

If a dog opens and put a tree on the end he or she is not a babbler,if a silent dog falled tree and the handler called him struck and treed at the same time he needs to be warned,then be scratched for lying about strike points.

Posted by l.lyle on 10-20-2011 03:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
And if all we wanted is to tree we would go squirrel hunting. but coon hounds are supose to do both. That doesn't mean they have to be slow about it. Tracking conditions and type of coon is what determins track speed. That and quality of hound. Now if that is all your hound can do is run threw the woods till it finds a hot track and put it up quick then that is what it has to do. But in thin coon a hound like that is going to have problems. It does make a dog look fast when the track isn't over 100 yards long when it strikes the coon.

Okie dawg, they want to think a dog that opens is a slow track snorter so let them. I never did think that you and me would agree on much but the beagle versus the squirel dog thing is a great example and funny as heck. . In other words I know I have a track burner opening like he should when it gets hot. In silent fellers brain his dog is 100 yards ahead of mine running silent and in my mind my dog is 300 yards ahead of his. But who knows where his dog is at? He ain't said a word so why should I think he is in the land of the living? I had a stupid bitch that was open and she could grab a tree from a working dog faster than anything I ever saw if he rared up on it. Thats what alot of them silent taggers do. How do I know ? Because I hunt in the marsh in the daytime when I can see what is going on and at night I also get my but off the tailgate and sneak in the woods with my light off and get myself ahead of an opening dog, ( but I could not get in front of a silent dog because I would not know where in the world he was heading), And sometimes I am lucky enough in the moonlight to SEE the bitch grab the tree. I can't moan , both of them are my dogs but I know which one to get rid of to a comp hunter for a great deal of money.

Posted by Blue Iron on 10-20-2011 04:03 AM:

Re: Strike dog

quote:
Originally posted by II Chance
I think a dog should open the second he smells coon not untill but as quick as, then drift and mounth using his thoughts to catch that coon. Gann's Finisher Style.

Well said.

Posted by groworg1 on 10-20-2011 04:04 AM:

so your saying my dog that locates with 3 long bawls turns over to a chop treed should be scratched a dog can't open on track if coon hasn't been on the ground since lastnight my dog is open but trees many layups i find it hard to believe that you can know a dog in two hours of hunt time to say he is dead silent and scratch him thats why i don't do many hunts to scratch a dog for being silent is bullcrap i don't like silent dogs myself but using a bs reason to get him out is what happens i've seen dogs win with quilles in there face now that dog should be scratched plain and simple but is not go figure

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-20-2011 04:05 AM:

L. Lyle you may be surprosed what all we would agree on if we knew each other better. This thing is just made for wise cracks and bickering. LOL

I have found being a barber and talking to the same people over and over and getting to know them better and better. When you learn why they think the way they do even if you still dont agree with them you understand them better and like them better. ( :

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Posted by davery on 10-20-2011 04:09 AM:

Amen own Ganns Finisher style,he had good nose with coon sense in him,could move a track with a wide open mouth when he was young.

Posted by davery on 10-20-2011 04:16 AM:

If you go by the rules your going to hurt somebody feelings,the best way is not to have buddys in a hunt, and congratulation to the winner at the end of the hunt.

Posted by on 10-20-2011 04:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
It is a breed standard that hounds open on track......There is no doubt in my mind thats where the rule stems from.

The problem with this rule is defining a silent dog.....VERY VERY few hounds are 100% silent IMO.

Bou't as many get scratched for it as there are dogs minused for babbling so I'd say its a wash...

Agreed 100%. Nearly every hound I've heard being labeled as silent I've heard open on track if I've hunted with them more than once. Some dogs open more or less depending on the company they're with and tracking conditions.

It isn't very often I hear of someone complain about someone hunting a silent dog but the few I have were the same guys striking off babbles claiming they're dog doesn't babble. Like Josh said, its a wash.

Posted by davery on 10-20-2011 04:27 AM:

There are rule for babblers in there to.

Posted by l.lyle on 10-20-2011 04:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
so your saying my dog that locates with 3 long bawls turns over to a chop treed should be scratched a dog can't open on track if coon hasn't been on the ground since lastnight my dog is open but trees many layups i find it hard to believe that you can know a dog in two hours of hunt time to say he is dead silent and scratch him thats why i don't do many hunts to scratch a dog for being silent is bullcrap i don't like silent dogs myself but using a bs reason to get him out is what happens i've seen dogs win with quilles in there face now that dog should be scratched plain and simple but is not go figure

Daggum! another one tonight that I did not think I would agree much with. If you will look up about a page worth you will find that I gave the layup dog extra consideration. Layup dogs whiffing live meat 4 stories up is a different class of dog in my opinion. There is no track to smell , he smells live meat. You can't expect that dog to open on the ground if there is nothing there to smell. Also, The runs heads up thing is curdog overblow in my opinion. A hound puts his head down while searching so he don't trot over tracks, then when it gets good he can lift his head up and go like he ought to. The heads up thing applies to what you and me and Okiedawg are saying . For example a dog is hunting in a trot with his head down and he skids brakes like a squirel dog does and gets his head up, I ain't talking about off the ground, he skids breaks and gets his nose pointed straight up in the air. Then he prceeds to tiptoe or even dance on his hind legs winding a layup coon and gets it right. That dog deserves his credit. Now to be truthfull , my best layup dog cannot do that every time , at some point a dog will strike on the ground and another then another dog puts in. The silent dogs only means of recovery if he doesn't put in is to have his very own tree somewhere in never never land but if he ends up as first tree or last tree on the working dog's tree and ain't yet said a word he needs to be scartched. JMO

Posted by Harley Smith on 10-20-2011 04:47 AM:

I would like to say I really like you guys and it has been fun reading your posts. Maybe we will all cross paths in the woods someday, and maybe by the time we meet I will own a dog that will open on track enough to not consider him silent and one that will stay on the tree till I get there. Gone for today but not for good. See ya tomorrow about 9 am central time.

Posted by gfults on 10-20-2011 05:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
I'll pray for all my brothers out there that only want to see the meat on the limb and seem to feel its not important how ole silent got there, but what is important is that he got there first.

You see, those of you that think that way have completely been thrown for a loop when it comes to understanding the intent of our founding fathers that originally developed the night hunt (HONOR) rules.

You see it was their intent to develop a set of rules that payed respect to the coon being treed as much as it did to developing a Hound, (using hound traits) that could consistently tree a coon while giving that coon a SPORTING chance to fool the hound and get away.

That is why it is required for a hound to open on track, so that the coon will know the hound is chasing it, and give that coon a fair chance to pull some tricks to fool the hound before the hound can catch it. Its not very sporting to use the SUPRISE attack of a silent trailer to force the coon up the nearest tree before it even known the hound is in pursuit.

That would be like some guy coming up and sucker punching you right in the nose and then tell you he wants to fight. Not very sporting but yes it is effective in giving you the advantage in winning the fight.

For all you young Whipper Snappers the term I am referring to are (THE SPORTING RULES OF A FAIR CHASE) I am sure many (if not all hunters under the age of 40) have never heard of this term but that is why a Hound is required to open on track.

If you still don't understand why a hound is required to open then I don't think I can do anything more to help you understand why the silent trait is such a significant fault.

Good Luck to you all and enjoy your season no matter what type dog you like to follow!!

Well if thats your argument, then what were the founding fathers thinking when they wrote the rules about minusing and scratching dogs for treeing possums?? What we call coonhounds were originally thought to be tree hounds first. Therefore treeing possums is as natural as treeing coons to these dogs, yet our founding fathers saw fit to punish these dogs for what came as a natural act. In turn came breaking these dogs of natural acts which usually comes in the form of physical discipline! Thats like breaking a baby from farting!! It only takes 1 bark from a dog on trail to not be silent. Is 1 bark enough of a head start warning for the coon to satisfy our founding fathers?? I feel like we pay a ton of respect to the coon considering the coon is not harmed. And remember, with all due respect to those founding fathers, they were not God, but men no different than you and I, and they could have been wrong way back then just as easy as they couldve been right!

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Posted by gfults on 10-20-2011 05:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
it seems pretty obvious that the track is being bred out of the hounds and replaced with tree.... hince silent and tight mouth hounds... sure they can win when they dont know how or cant run anything but a smoking hot track... but think where it will end up if people just keep breeding this way.... keep them balanced and still create a winner

Being tight or silent does not mean those dogs have had the track bred out of them. It just means they dont open on track! And if you think the only kind of coon those dogs can tree are hot coons, you're dead wrong! Ive got one thats tight and he can tree hot coons in front of the truck when acorns are falling, or he can tree coons 3/4 to 1 mile during the coldest nights of the year with snow on the ground, and he dont take all night to do it neither! Also, an open trailing dog can move a track out like it should be as well. I like a dog that opens on track, but a silent coon treeing machine shouldnt be scratched just because they dont give the coon enough warning. Tight or open dont seem to matter about how fast a dog can move a track. If you dont believe me, go hunt with Ronnie Nickens Flatrock Clackston dog. He opens extremely quick but honest, opens quite a bit but not too much, and can take a track thru the country like he's got a rocket up his butt!! Next to Hardrock, Clacks the fastest track dog Ive ever seen!

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Posted by gfults on 10-20-2011 06:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
And if all we wanted is to tree we would go squirrel hunting. but coon hounds are supose to do both. That doesn't mean they have to be slow about it. Tracking conditions and type of coon is what determins track speed. That and quality of hound. Now if that is all your hound can do is run threw the woods till it finds a hot track and put it up quick then that is what it has to do. But in thin coon a hound like that is going to have problems. It does make a dog look fast when the track isn't over 100 yards long when it strikes the coon.

I strongly disagree. I live in southern middle Tennessee, and could write a novel about thin coon. I also hunt a tight mouth dog. Trust me when I tell you he dont have any problems at all treeing coons anywhere Ive ever hunted him in every weather condition imaginable. Me and a buddy went huntin this past Sunday night. We had my male dog, a pup Im huntin and my buddy had his nice walker male. I havent been huntin my male dog much due to the fact Ive got 2 young dogs and a pup Im huntin. We cut the dogs out a long ridge, 213 yards in, Jr struck. He opened 3 more times, died on a tree and rolled it over. He was treed 817 yards from where we cut, with the coon in a little under 6 minutes! May not be the fastest, but I aint complaining.

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Posted by l.lyle on 10-20-2011 06:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
Well if thats your argument, then what were the founding fathers thinking when they wrote the rules about minusing and scratching dogs for treeing possums?? What we call coonhounds were originally thought to be tree hounds first. Therefore treeing possums is as natural as treeing coons to these dogs, yet our founding fathers saw fit to punish these dogs for what came as a natural act. In turn came breaking these dogs of natural acts which usually comes in the form of physical discipline! Thats like breaking a baby from farting!! It only takes 1 bark from a dog on trail to not be silent. Is 1 bark enough of a head start warning for the coon to satisfy our founding fathers?? I feel like we pay a ton of respect to the coon considering the coon is not harmed. And remember, with all due respect to those founding fathers, they were not God, but men no different than you and I, and they could have been wrong way back then just as easy as they couldve been right!

Possum treeing and bringing hogs to bay and putting armadillos to a hole and digging up ground moles ; all the same. They be some gamey dawgs. I like 'em all . I even like bird dog pups pointing flutterbys butterflies.
Who said it only takes one bark from a dog not to be silent? Not me , get that straight right here and now. Maybe you interpret UkC Rules to say that , so live by them rules and sell me your dog and see what you get.

Posted by skeets on 10-20-2011 08:07 AM:

i agree with gfults, some of the coldest nose dogs ive ever seen was silent on track, and i much rather my dog tree a grinner than slick on a coon. i dont know who our founding coon hunting fathers were and i have nothing against them but if they were here now and they say a silent dogs are culls, i would ask them that coon hes ah treeing up is it a cull to? lol i think ive hunted long enough to maybe know what a coon dog is and the way i got it figured out is the dog that you see the most coons with is usually the best coon dog. i wonder when folks had to hunt to help feed their kids back years ago what kind of dogs did they hunt? i would think it would be the dog that showed them the most coons, i dont think they were to worried if their dogs didnt bawl and howl on track lol.

Posted by l.lyle on 10-20-2011 08:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by skeets
i agree with gfults, some of the coldest nose dogs ive ever seen was silent on track, and i much rather my dog tree a grinner than slick on a coon. i dont know who our founding coon hunting fathers were and i have nothing against them but if they were here now and they say a silent dogs are culls, i would ask them that coon hes ah treeing up is it a cull to? lol i think ive hunted long enough to maybe know what a coon dog is and the way i got it figured out is the dog that you see the most coons with is usually the best coon dog. i wonder when folks had to hunt to help feed their kids back years ago what kind of dogs did they hunt? i would think it would be the dog that showed them the most coons, i dont think they were to worried if their dogs didnt bawl and howl on track lol.

Well I betcha ole Daniel Boone would have had no use for a curent open trailing Walker that had to be tracked down by a beep beep nor an GPS. Gone so far he was out of hearing and therefore might as well be silent. Nor would he have had any use for a dog that ain't said a word and bees all excited barking everybreath treed once he every decides to open his stupid mouth on the next over mountain ridge (on a possum) LOL LMBO. I can see old Daniel now when he has to sniff down a silent dog he can't hear to cover two mountain ranges to get in hearing to get hisself a great big old possum LOL Go Kid Yourself.

Skeets , tell me true. How do you know that some of the coldest nosed dogs you ever saw were silent ???? I am trying my very best how you have ever SEEN a SILENT Cold nosed dog actually working on the ground. Not in your head . Anybody can dream that kind of stuff up.

Posted by gfults on 10-20-2011 09:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
Possum treeing and bringing hogs to bay and putting armadillos to a hole and digging up ground moles ; all the same. They be some gamey dawgs. I like 'em all . I even like bird dog pups pointing flutterbys butterflies.
Who said it only takes one bark from a dog not to be silent? Not me , get that straight right here and now. Maybe you interpret UkC Rules to say that , so live by them rules and sell me your dog and see what you get.

I didnt say you said it only took one bark for a dog not to be silent! I said it. Lets get that straight right here and now! I didnt necessarily mean thats how I interpret the rules neither. But it would be awful hard to get a dog scratched for being silent thats opened on track even if it was only 1 bark.

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Posted by gfults on 10-20-2011 09:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
Well I betcha ole Daniel Boone would have had no use for a curent open trailing Walker that had to be tracked down by a beep beep nor an GPS. Gone so far he was out of hearing and therefore might as well be silent. Nor would he have had any use for a dog that ain't said a word and bees all excited barking everybreath treed once he every decides to open his stupid mouth on the next over mountain ridge (on a possum) LOL LMBO. I can see old Daniel now when he has to sniff down a silent dog he can't hear to cover two mountain ranges to get in hearing to get hisself a great big old possum LOL Go Kid Yourself.

Skeets , tell me true. How do you know that some of the coldest nosed dogs you ever saw were silent ???? I am trying my very best how you have ever SEEN a SILENT Cold nosed dog actually working on the ground. Not in your head . Anybody can dream that kind of stuff up.

I bet Daniel Boone didnt give a flying fudgecicle if his dog was silent or not as long as it put meat on the table

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Posted by l.lyle on 10-20-2011 09:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
I didnt say you said it only took one bark for a dog not to be silent! I said it. Lets get that straight right here and now! I didnt necessarily mean thats how I interpret the rules neither. But it would be awful hard to get a dog scratched for being silent thats opened on track even if it was only 1 bark.

You are right . It would be awful hard. But in the real world if I was fixing to buy a dog it would be a whole lot harder yet to put that dog in my box if you gave me 500$ to haul it off for you is what I am saying.

Posted by amazingcursouth on 10-20-2011 02:01 PM:

your going to be hard pressed to find a stone silent dog. Even my curs will open here and there. but they are faster even on bad tracks because they are running, working and thinking instead of barking. It is proven that all dogs have to slow down to bark and many stop completely. I still hunt hounds, but i don't want a full open bark every breath type of hound. You will also see as a dog gets older, and wiser he will tighten up on the ground. This is the reason you see the cream rise to the top in lots of the bigger hunts. Yes a young dog will win from time to time, but a dog with age seems to do better the majority of the time. I have always hunted to tree coon first, trophies and titles second. A dog that barked 3 to 4 times on ground and fell treed is a dog that is hard to beat. They seem more independent, but they are really hard to keep up with for the other dogs. but this thread is about stone silent HOUNDS. I have yet to see one in 27 yrs of hunting. All i have been with will bark some here and there. Hardwood Dan is a good example. He opened on track just enough, he was a get in there drift a bad track and make it look better than it was kind of coon dog. He could get treed with the meat, with out having to bark all the dang time.

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Posted by patches9452 on 10-20-2011 02:06 PM:

i may have misled some people... by no means do i want a dog to open everytime his feet hit the ground... i want him moving forward enough you know he has went somewhere between every bark i just dont want stone silent.... lots of tracks my dogs are very tight on and some tracks even silent but its the track making them that way not the way they are bred... hot tracks they will be screaming like they looking at it... just what i like and hunt

Posted by RHK on 10-20-2011 02:10 PM:

I LOVE IT!! WERE TALKIN DANIEL BOONE NOW!!

im pretty sure daniel got tired of treein on dens so he ate all his boo-hoo dogs because they were starvin him to death.

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