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-- Coffee Shop Philosophy (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=446289)

What would I have done, hmmm? Swallowed hard, shook my head and then the same thing you did followed by being thankful it was my dog and not another cast members.

***Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I guess you're right, in that I only had to justify it to myself. It could have been a debate if it was someone else's dog, although we had a pretty good cast.

I did think about the good ole days, though. Do you remember when not all dogs were belly-up tree dogs? In fact, there was a time that it wasn't uncommon to see a dog sit on their haunches, and tree. Back then, the rule of thumb was if the dog was under the branches of the tree, it was "on the tree". Of course, the fence adds another variable...

David Schmidt

There's still quite a few dogs that aren't belly to the bark tree dogs around. Most are though, but it is becoming a rarity to see a sit down style tree dog anymore. Most of todays hounds are wound way too tight to sit still that long LOL.
"Under the canopy, plus 'em up", still apply this sometimes, but it is unusual, "back in the day" it got used frequently. More of a situational application now I guess.
Speaking of "variables", a guy sure runs into some strange scoring scenerios in these hunts doesn't he? The longer you do it the higher the probability that you will have one that is just plain freaky. Treeing on a fence is pretty straight forward, had a dog get treed on a center pivot irrigation system once. The pivot was almost straight in front of us and the end gun was to our right. The dog was declared treed just slightly to the right of where we were standing. Thirty seconds later it was plain as the ink on the score card she'd moved about 100 yards to the right,-125, retreed. Less than a minute later, same scenerio and -125, retreed. Another thirty seconds or so and she moved again,-125, "go catch your dog, you're done". That's when we found out she was treeing on an irrigation pivot and the coon was running on the pipe. The dog was moving from drive tower to drive tower as the coon moved out towards the end gun. We pulled her off the end tower and saw the coon, the only one we saw that night too! That one still makes me shake my head and chuckle everytime I think about it.

***Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Absolutely... I still shake my head when you see folks say that it's simple, the rules are on the back of the scorecard. Those that say it's always "black and white" haven't been to enough hunts, in my opinion.

David Schmidt

quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
***Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Absolutely... I still shake my head when you see folks say that it's simple, the rules are on the back of the scorecard. Those that say it's always "black and white" haven't been to enough hunts, in my opinion.

David Schmidt

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Treed +125

One foot away from the tree. I would have argued for the dog - judge or not. I've seen and had dogs many times sit under a tree with a coon in it. I don't know if they see it or if that is the position in which they can smell it on an air current and know where it is. I would think in a pasture that it would more clear than ever which tree he was barking on. In the woods, it might not be so clear which tree a dog is treeing on, and I would certainly think the handler would have to declare the tree before the shining began. In you case, in the middle of a pasture, I guess you could have been asked, "Is your dog treeing on the fence or the tree?"
Your dog could have easily gotten to the fence but realized the coon was up and decided to tree there rather than cross it.
Now if the tree was 20 feet away, it would be a different story. But the way you described it, I would have had no problem giving you the tree. Rules are rules, but common sense and reasonableness might not be as common as coffee shops used to be.

***Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Perhaps they should change the title from "Honor Rules" to "Reasonable Honor Rules"?!? Of course, then someone would want to argue over whether they were being "reasonable"!

I will have to say, that although I didn't make it to many hunts this year, the casts I was in were mostly a pleasure... a lot of common sense and sportsmanship was present. It was refreshing! But again, I didn't make it to many hunts...

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Please read first post prior to posting reply

I have entered my blue male in 4 hunts, one of which was the bbcha state championship were he won king of hunt and king of show. The first hunt I lost a coin toss, 2nd hunt 1st, 3rd hunt king of hunt & show (2nd) overall, 4th hunt dead cast. I believe he's doing a great job for a 2yr old hound.
I work a month on and a month off. So he lays up for the month I'm gone but I normally hunt him hard the month I'm home. He's just a sheer joy to hunt.
Even though I only need 1 more win for nite champion I really struggle with myself to continue comp hunting. Maybe It's just because I really enjoy hunting alone with ole blue so much. IDK It's hard for me to load up and drive to a hunt where you might or might not be treated fairly. I feel I owe it to my hound and his breeders to get the title. Does anybody else struggle with this? I know in this day and age a blue dog that has achieved as much as he has at 2 yr old and in 4 hunts is rare. Or so it seems, any thoughts? Maybe I'm being selfish because I'm so attached to him but being alone in the swamp hunting with is like therapy to me.

Re: Please read first post prior to posting reply

quote:

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Originally posted by Joseph A Clark
I have entered my blue male in 4 hunts, one of which was the I know in this day and age a blue dog that has achieved as much as he has at 2 yr old and in 4 hunts is rare. Or so it seems, any thoughts?

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__________________
" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

Tom thanks for the reply. I guess what I struggle with is I feel now days a lot of people comp hunt with the attitude of " do whatever it takes " to win. I enjoy being around other hunters at the club and looking at all the hounds etc. I feel like it's a roll of the dice at times as to how people act once in the woods with a scorecard in hand. I'm not saying this is the norm by any means but it does happen. At times I also feel like the world of competition hunting has become to "corporate" so to speak and there's more focus on money and fame than actually on the hounds and a honest handler etc.
I'm just wondering if any of the die hard competition people have these same thoughts at times? I love the sport of coon hunting and want to help support the sport but not fill the pockets of a few select people. I think they're certain issues that need and should be addressed but get neglected because we don't want to admit to the problems.

I too am torn, at times.

On one hand, I will never judge a dog by it's titles, but since so many others do, I ask myself whether I need to title a dog, for it to be given the respect it deserves. Then I go to hunts, my dog screws up, I screw up, I get a dead cast on a bad night etc. and I don't get the wins I need, then people start asking whether I'm going to finish to grand before the dog starts drawing social security! Which is fair... if you're going to get it done, then get it done, don't half-a$$ it!

So I chose to stop farting around with a couple casts a year, and just retire my 7-yr old as a NTCH. Was he given a few chances to get it done, but didn't? Absolutely yes. Is he a much better "coon dog" than many of the GrNtCh out there? I personally beleive so.

But if you're going to do it, for other's perspective, then get it done fast or the result will be the opposite. If you're going to do it for yourself, because you like to competition hunt from time to time, then do so, but be prepared to get some ribbing!

With regards to bad casts... I personnaly don't go to hunts, to win any more, although I take dogs that I beleive have a good chance to do so. I go because I enjoy hunting and competition. It's no different than not being an NBA player, but enjoying a good pick-up game, down at the YMCA. And becasue of this, I fully plan to run into some "characters" and I focus on dealing with them, the best I can, or simply withdrawing, if it's not going to be an enjoyable experience. If you go there to win, and nothing else, you're not afforded that option.

That's how I feel today, anyway. Now, if I had a dog capable of winning a world hunt, I may think differently!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
I too am torn, at times.

On one hand, I will never judge a dog by it's titles, but since so many others do, I ask myself whether I need to title a dog, for it to be given the respect it deserves. Then I go to hunts, my dog screws up, I screw up, I get a dead cast on a bad night etc. and I don't get the wins I need, then people start asking whether I'm going to finish to grand before the dog starts drawing social security! Which is fair... if you're going to get it done, then get it done, don't half-a$$ it!

So I chose to stop farting around with a couple casts a year, and just retire my 7-yr old as a NTCH. Was he given a few chances to get it done, but didn't? Absolutely yes. Is he a much better "coon dog" than many of the GrNtCh out there? I personally beleive so.

But if you're going to do it, for other's perspective, then get it done fast or the result will be the opposite. If you're going to do it for yourself, because you like to competition hunt from time to time, then do so, but be prepared to get some ribbing!

With regards to bad casts... I personnaly don't go to hunts, to win any more, although I take dogs that I beleive have a good chance to do so. I go because I enjoy hunting and competition. It's no different than not being an NBA player, but enjoying a good pick-up game, down at the YMCA. And becasue of this, I fully plan to run into some "characters" and I focus on dealing with them, the best I can, or simply withdrawing, if it's not going to be an enjoyable experience. If you go there to win, and nothing else, you're not afforded that option.

That's how I feel today, anyway. Now, if I had a dog capable of winning a world hunt, I may think differently!

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__________________
Billy Beckham
618-214-0065

PKC CH, GRNITECH Beckham's Hillbilly Bones

Joe

I understand completlly and have shared the same experience, I have also won a few cast because of good sportsmanship when another cast member found my coon. I have allwaysthought how much better would these hunts be if folks would just be honest and call there dog for what it does. Competetion coonhunting started out as a gentlemens sport but some men will just about say anything if it means getting their cast win.

With any performance animal the first thing a person has to do is set aside their feelings and be honest with theirselves about what they have, if you enjoy hunting it MOST of the time, that is all that matters. There is nothing that can help yourself and your hound learn more then hunting hard with just the two of you.

__________________
" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks that way! I guess it's the cast where everybody is honest that keeps me going. All a person can really ask for in a competition hunt is to be treated fairly win, loose or draw. I think one of the best cast I've been in was a dead one.

Joe Newlin and I had been asked to put on a couple training sessions to meet the educational requirement of some YEP events. We put together a mock cast, and even created a video, BUT before we got started I always asked the same question, "How many of you will be competing, tonight?"

After all the hands went up, I would inform them that none of them would be "competing", as they are simply handlers of the dogs that are competing. I informed them, that there job was to know the rules, be good sportsman, and advise the judge of what there dog was doing... struck, treed, moving, etc. Summarizing, that a competition night hunt, was where dogs compete to determine who the best coon dog was, on that given night.

I was speaking to the youth, but I was hoping that many of their fathers and mothers, were listening!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
***Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Absolutely... I still shake my head when you see folks say that it's simple, the rules are on the back of the scorecard. Those that say it's always "black and white" haven't been to enough hunts, in my opinion.

David Schmidt

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__________________
Skip Hartline
219-325-0914- H
CELL 219-898-5725


gone but will never be forgotten

PR Van Dusen's Hanna o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Maggie o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Mickey o/h
PR Buck Brush Copper o/h
D NTCH PR Crooked Oak Boss o/h
D NtCH PR Alford's Alibi h
NTCH PR Alford's Hatchet h
NT CH PR Mill's Dotty h

***Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Probably to fuel the arguments, in the field, otherwise we would run out of material!

I'm kidding obviously, but what's even more confusing is how clear-cut these black and white rules are, but there's a whole book called the Advisor, that tells you how to interpret them. I personally think that's the best approach, because obviously many rules, in our lives, require some guidance on interpretation. But I think the judges, these clubs assign, should at least first prove their literacy in reading those rules, and ideally they would have at least looked at the Advisor.

I'm amazed how often someone claims something is or is not a rule, and when I quickly flip the card over and show them, they say "Huh!" Even when they're not a jerk about it, I still think to myself, how hard is it to read these rules before you show up to hunt. I've got enough going on, calling my dog, keeping score, keeping time and ensuring I apply the rules correctly, without having to tutor these other guys.

I know these guys don't always mean to be disruptive, but people forget how hard it is to be a hunting judge. Especially when the payment for the service you provide, so that they can hunt, is paid with grief!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Our has held " rule seminars " which I think really helps. And for the most part I enjoy hunting with all our club members.
Bottom line I think sportsmanship really shows the heart of a man/woman and really speaks of the integrity of a person. No matter what the scorecard says at the end of the night everybody from any given cast knows which dog really shined that night and which handler conducted theirself accordingly. The problem is even though people know that they still continue to turn a blind eye.
When I invite a fellow hunter to participate in an up coming event and the first thing they say is " No thanks, I heard those hunts or full of cheaters!" I think we all have heard that before. How dishearting is that? Is that how we're really perceived by outsiders? If so what can be done to change this?

quote:

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Originally posted by Joseph A Clark
Our has held " rule seminars " which I think really helps. And for the most part I enjoy hunting with all our club members.
Bottom line I think sportsmanship really shows the heart of a man/woman and really speaks of the integrity of a person. No matter what the scorecard says at the end of the night everybody from any given cast knows which dog really shined that night and which handler conducted theirself accordingly. The problem is even though people know that they still continue to turn a blind eye.
When I invite a fellow hunter to participate in an up coming event and the first thing they say is " No thanks, I heard those hunts or full of cheaters!" I think we all have heard that before. How dishearting is that? Is that how we're really perceived by outsiders? If so what can be done to change this?

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__________________
Gold Life member of G.P.A.A. #257936
Member of The Lost Dutchman's Mining Association #02890729

Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I have always owned registered dogs and always will. My views on registered dogs have changed over the years and my view on what others think about registered dogs also have changed over the years.

I think way too many people get caught up in the dogs pedigree and over look what the dog is actually doing. If your going to use the pedigree for anything then use it as a tool to find yourself a pup that should have coondog bred into it. Once you own the dog, put the papers away on the shelf and concentrate on the dog itself. If it does not perform to coonhound standards then do the right thing, no matter how many champions the papers show.

I have people come by here all the time with bear hounds and hog dogs in their truck. None have papers and most are crossbred with maybe one of the parents being out of registered stock. Funny thing is these people don't care about the papers, they just care about catching game. Many of the hounds I see from crossed up stock meet certain breed standards better than dogs that come from totally registered stock. I have seen some extremenly well built hounds that looked like Walkers whos mom was a grade mixed up bluetick or black and tan. I saw a dog the other day that was a beautiful redtick looking dog whos mom was a bluetick and dad a grade mixed up walker.

Guess I am wondering why so many people put down grade dogs when people breeding them to catch game seem to get good results and dogs that look better than the registered ones. lol

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Thanks Chuck!
I guess being on a boat for 28 days at a time really gets my mind churning. Lol I wish the kennel clubs awarded a sportsmanship award at the world hunts each year. Maybe through out the year at hunts, after returning to the club house each cast could pick the person in their cast that they thought was deserving and at the end of the year the kennel club could tally up the votes etc. Make it a big deal so it'd really mean something. Have the magazines run an article on them etc.

quote:

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Originally posted by Joseph A Clark
Our has held " rule seminars " which I think really helps. And for the most part I enjoy hunting with all our club members.
Bottom line I think sportsmanship really shows the heart of a man/woman and really speaks of the integrity of a person. No matter what the scorecard says at the end of the night everybody from any given cast knows which dog really shined that night and whiceh handler conducted theirself accordingly. The problem is even though people know that they still continue to turn a blind eye.
When I invite a fellow hunter to participate in an up coming event and the first thing they say is " No thanks, I heard those hunts or full of cheaters!" I think we all have heard that before. How dishearting is that? Is that how we're really perceived by outsiders? If so what can be done to change this?

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__________________
{I Hunt For The Sound Of The Hound, Not The Thrill Of The Kill!!}

I haven't done an HTX hunt, but as I understand them... there's no where to hide! It's just you the judge and your dog. You may not determine how fast your dog is (strike, tree, etc.) but they better be a coon dog, or it will be apparent, pretty darn fast!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Ok, new thought...

How old is too old to start a dog? I got a message the other day, from a guy wanting to know about Clover bred dogs. I was about to tell him that I didn't know much about their history, but could describe the traits I've seen, when low and behold I found out that he had a dog out of one of my litters! What are the odds of that!?!

Anyway, this dog is around 3 years old and appears to never have been to the woods. So she certainly hasn't learned any bad traits! Of course there will be the whole issue of socialization, but I would assume she's not to old to learn something. And of course, he won't have to deal with the "puppyness" and wanting to just play around.

What do others think?

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

The htx hunts are great! Give'em a try.