UKC Forums - poll on crossbreeds

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- poll on crossbreeds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=31786)

Posted by mnplottman on 02-10-2006 03:50 AM:

Re: Why of course, that is if we could get it approved.

quote:
Originally posted by warrior
You know that in all things crossbred it must first be approved by the master of all things crossbred SKYBLU. I would like to have UKC hire Sky to regulate all these horrible breedings taking place. I mean really all these coonhunters out there trying to breed coondogs what do they think they're doing. The bench show folks should be in charge of breeding coondogs. The field trialers should breed the show dogs. I ain't exactly figured out what the water racers should breed and I don't think they do either. All us coonhunters should shut up and be content because we don't know anything anyway. LMAO

Who was on about a week ago saying (I think) that a beaver was rideing thier dog anyway maybe hes breeding for water races LOL

KEEP'EM BRINDLE BOYS OR IN THIS CASE WHAT EVER WORKS

Brent Johnson
Bemidji MN

Posted by junior8 on 02-10-2006 04:45 AM:

Re: Cross Bred Hounds

quote:
Originally posted by JOE H BROOKS
Actually some of the walker dog roots, came from blue ticks, that's why, you some times get a blue tick litter of pups, that are black and white, no ticks. The red ticks also came from the blue tick breed and some of the english, i won't say all, cause, some of them came, from the walker breed. I see a lot of in breeding, line breeding, and people start haveing problems, in their dogs, parrot mouth, no heat cycle, dogs, found dead in pen at 3 yr. old, 8 yr. old, remember, you get the bad, defects, just as well, as the good. The old dogs of years past use to live longer, 15 to 16 years, we are lucky, today if they are alive at 11 years of age. I prefer to use a total out cross, black&tan to walker, i still try to breed, for what is lacking, in the female or male, if i have a dog that goes too hard, i'll bred to a female, that hunts close, that takes, pressure, stays hooked, if one is a little trashy, i'll bred something clean, in there.

A person could almost say that the history of the English Coonhound is the history of all coonhounds — and he wouldn’t be too far wrong. With the exception of the Plott Hound, all the UKC breeds of coonhounds have a common ancestry that is deeply rooted in the English Foxhound
The English was first registered by UKC in 1905, under the name of English Fox & Coonhound. In those days the dogs were used much more on fox than they are today. The name also reflected the similarity that the breed had to the American Foxhound and the English Foxhound.

The variation in color brings us to another aspect of the English Coonhound history. Both the Treeing Walker and the Bluetick Coonhound were originally registered with UKC as English. The Walker was recognized as a separate breed in 1945 and the Bluetick a year later. To this day there are still tri-colored and blueticked English hounds, though redticked dogs predominate.
The first mention we have of hounds in America appears in the diary of one of the men of the explorer DeSoto. He also mentions that the hounds were used for the hunting of Indians rather than fox, raccoon or rabbit.

In 1650, the Englishman Robert Brooke brought his pack of hounds with him. Thomas Walker of Virginia imported hounds from England in 1742, and in 1770 George Washington, an avid fox hunter, had hounds imported from England. These dogs were the foundation of the “Virginia Hounds”, from which our present day English Coonhound developed.

It was, however, for the Americans to adapt these animals to the much rougher American terrain and climate. And it was the Americans that, through careful breeding practices, adapted the hound to American game, the raccoon, opossum, cougar and various species of bear.

English hounds have excelled in both performance and conformation. The first major coonhound Field Trial of all time, the first Leafy Oak, was won by an English dog called “Bones”, owned by Colonel Leon Robinson.

__________________
michael ford

Posted by John Wittenborn on 02-10-2006 01:46 PM:

EVOLUTION????????????

Back in the 40's, 50's, & early 60's the ARGUMENTS were more about what dog's were better, "GRADE" or "REGISTERED". Then for a period of around 20 to 40 years it was WHICH BREED OF DOG'S, were the best. Now, it has EVOLVED to the point of, WHICH LINE OF DOG'S WITHIN EACH BREED IS THE BEST????????

I for one, & I'm sure that there are quite a few other people around the country that AREN'T CONVINCED that REGISTERED DOG'S make BETTER COONHOUNDS OR BIG GAME HOUNDS then the CROSSBRED HOUNDS do???? Yes, on average, Registered dog's sell for a higher price, but I'm talking about making a top COON OR BIG GAME HOUND.

Now, before you start calling me IGNORANT, STUPID, OR AN IDIOT, yes I have been hunting Registered dog's since the late 50's. The MAIN REASON I hunted Registered dog's was that I loved to Compitition hunt, & that WAS the WAY THAT COMPITITION HUNTS were EVOLVING, & the GRADE DOG HUNTS were going down the same ROAD AS THE PASSENGER PIGEON & THE DODO BIRD. And no, I don't think that I'm a DODO, EITHER???? LOL

__________________
John

CUTLER, AMERICA

Good judgement, is something that you get from using bad judgement.--Will Rogers

Posted by Jared Lawrason on 02-10-2006 08:43 PM:

This is silly. How do you all think the present breeds came to be??????????????????????

Posted by last chance on 02-11-2006 12:42 AM:

If people want to crossbreed thats fine,but they should be reg. crossbred and it should be right on their papers!You shouldn't be able to single reg. them or reg. them in a certain breed just because they meet the breed standards!Coondog is a coondog whatever their color.

***************Kerry Huss**************

Posted by midnight walker on 02-11-2006 01:46 AM:

I DONT LIKE CROSSBREEDS BECAUSE IT TAKES BRAGING RIGHTS AWAY FROM BOTH BREEDS BUT I HAVE HEARD OF VERY GOOD COON DOGS COMING OUT OF CROSS BREEDS AND YOU CANT DOWN A DOG IF IT DOES WHAT IT WAS BORN TO DO

__________________
KEEP'EM TREED

Posted by deepsouthkennels86 on 02-11-2006 02:49 AM:

in my opion cross breeding is great to get a good pleasure hound

__________________
......if you have more circle than plus points you ain't got a coon dog

Posted by wkfii on 02-11-2006 02:38 PM:

Re: Re: Cross Bred Hounds

quote:
Originally posted by junior8
A person could almost say that the history of the English Coonhound is the history of all coonhounds — and he wouldn’t be too far wrong. With the exception of the Plott Hound, all the UKC breeds of coonhounds have a common ancestry that is deeply rooted in the English Foxhound
The English was first registered by UKC in 1905, under the name of English Fox & Coonhound. In those days the dogs were used much more on fox than they are today. The name also reflected the similarity that the breed had to the American Foxhound and the English Foxhound.

The variation in color brings us to another aspect of the English Coonhound history. Both the Treeing Walker and the Bluetick Coonhound were originally registered with UKC as English. The Walker was recognized as a separate breed in 1945 and the Bluetick a year later. To this day there are still tri-colored and blueticked English hounds, though redticked dogs predominate.
The first mention we have of hounds in America appears in the diary of one of the men of the explorer DeSoto. He also mentions that the hounds were used for the hunting of Indians rather than fox, raccoon or rabbit.

In 1650, the Englishman Robert Brooke brought his pack of hounds with him. Thomas Walker of Virginia imported hounds from England in 1742, and in 1770 George Washington, an avid fox hunter, had hounds imported from England. These dogs were the foundation of the “Virginia Hounds”, from which our present day English Coonhound developed.

It was, however, for the Americans to adapt these animals to the much rougher American terrain and climate. And it was the Americans that, through careful breeding practices, adapted the hound to American game, the raccoon, opossum, cougar and various species of bear.

English hounds have excelled in both performance and conformation. The first major coonhound Field Trial of all time, the first Leafy Oak, was won by an English dog called “Bones”, owned by Colonel Leon Robinson.

The history of the coonhound is not the history of the English Coonhound. English was a catch all phrase used to lump all the strains together because of the need for a registry at the turn of the century. There were running Walkers and Gascon hounds (going back to the 5th century in written records) before anyone said we need to make up a name for all these strains of hounds out there that are running coon, bear, etc... The main reason that there are hounds that are blueticked and tri-colored in the modern English breed is because of the liberal single registration rules of that breed (which is probably a good thing because it provides a mechanism for those who like to cross breed) and quite frankly less than honest breeders who are either putting false papers on hounds or being less than truthful about the sire (usually) when they register.

Posted by J. Wigley on 02-11-2006 03:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blk andtanman86
in my opion cross breeding is great to get a good pleasure hound

Why just a good pleasure Hound?????? You must be one of those people still crying about "Hard Rock". Ya'll better get used to it cross breds are on the rise. Mark my word UKC will have them before long. Mark it down in your liitle black book,cross breds will become a major force in comp. hunting.

__________________
Jim Wigley
Burr Oak Blueticks

Posted by joe wilson on 02-11-2006 03:40 PM:

Re: Poll on Cross Breeds

quote:
Originally posted by JOE H BROOKS
Shetler's Sonny Boy, the sire of Finley River Chief, Johnson's Banjo, just a couple of hounds that go back to cross bred mutts, as some narrow minded people, would say. Lester Nance's White River King, goes back to a black&tan female and others. Single registered hounds, or dogs that go back to them, Carolinia Casey, acha world hunt winner 68, 69 and placed in 4 of the world hunts, his mother was, single registered. Katy's Rowdy, another acha world hunt winner, went back to Mountain Music Blue and Blaze. There's a whole lot of big name dogs, that go back to cross bred hounds, why that lady in Texas, might have some in her kennel and don't know it. If everybody on this board was hunting a world class, coon hound, then there wouldn't be any need to improve their stock, would there ? And to hear some of them talk, you'd think, that they already had it all, till you go hunt, with them. Well you can't tell some people anything, cause they already know it all, but for the rest of us, we're still learning, still trying.

and ozark preacher had som trig in him which is ruuning dogs so all the stylish dogs we hunt are mutts as skyblu would say....i would hunt a cross bred if i could win 40,000 and im a walker man.....we have room for them ......

__________________
keep it real
26572

Posted by J. Wigley on 02-11-2006 05:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by STONE COLD
I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH CROSSBREEDING COONHOUNDS. .I ALSO THINK THAT IT IS NOT RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO SINGLE REG. THEM AND BRING IT RIGHT BACK INTO THAT BREED AGAIN. I FEEL THE THING TO DO IS TO REG. THEM AS CROSSBREED AND NOT SINGLE REG. I FEEL THE UKC NEEDS TO CREATE A BREED BEFORE EVERYONE IS HUNTING A SINGLE REG. DOG. THIS IS JUST MY THOUGHT-THANKS ROB

Stone Cold I agree with you 100%. Register them as cross breds and let them comp. just like all the other breeds.

__________________
Jim Wigley
Burr Oak Blueticks

Posted by wkfii on 02-12-2006 08:32 AM:

You all are willing to trade the benefits of registration for what we had in the early 1900s? I am under no illusion as to what lies in the bloodlines of all of the coonhounds. I just think that there is an adequate balance struck now in the UKC rules. Read them closely and you will see that there are subtle and not so subtle ways to cross breed and still register the hound honestly. I can assure you that most of us (me included)do not have the breeding knowledge and acumen of Lester Nance or of Mr. Shetler. After some of the big mistakes that the Walker breeders have made within the last 20 years that should be self evident.

Posted by Bear on 02-12-2006 02:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wkfii
. I can assure you that most of us (me included)do not have the breeding knowledge and acumen of Lester Nance or of Mr. Shetler. After some of the big mistakes that the Walker breeders have made within the last 20 years that should be self evident.

You hit the nail on the head with that one Bill.Its a cryin shame that $$$$ got in the way of good breeding practices.

Posted by wkfii on 02-12-2006 05:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bearhunter
You hit the nail on the head with that one Bill.Its a cryin shame that $$$$ got in the way of good breeding practices.

I think that you noticed Sam, that what the old boys are complaining about is hunting the cross bred hounds in the hunts.

I think the problem is that PETA and their like minded friends have depressed the fur market. I think the key to ensuring tracking and treeing excellance is promote the use of fur for coats and other clothing articles.

Posted by walkerdude15 on 02-14-2006 03:43 AM:

i dont care if the crossbred dogs are both a type of coonhound. if u crossbreed pitbull in them to make them better fighers thats wrong.

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'PR' Gleason's Sweetie-- 5 coons under the belt

Posted by wkfii on 02-15-2006 10:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by walkerdude15
i dont care if the crossbred dogs are both a type of coonhound. if u crossbreed pitbull in them to make them better fighers thats wrong.

That's true DUDE, but if you notice, the hounds are getting bigger. I think that is because some breeders want more "muscle" at the tree for the competition hunts.

You know English Pointers were bred to pits to a certain extent years ago to give them tenacity. I would think that is also true of coonhounds.

Having said this, you point out the problem- if you want to cross breed, where do you stop? Everything that the modern proponents of unfettered cross-breeding do or want to do has been done before. I can't understand why we cannot take the genetic diversity present in all the coonhound breeds and still breed what you want. The UKC offers some leeway to breed within the different breeds. Be honest, take it and take the benefits of a registry and move on. Of course some of us think we are the next Vaughn, Nance, Hershberger, etc. Maybe some of us are.

I was talking to an owner and breeder of a pointing breed of dog. I explained to her about the UKCs balance and single registration. She was appalled. But then she proceeded to share with me that some breeders were crossing English Pointer into this breed and lying on the papers because the Pointer blood gave them more range and speed. Sound familiar?

Posted by j myers on 02-18-2006 05:00 PM:

Crossbred hounds are like crossbred cattle, any cattle man knows about hybrid vigor, by breaking away from a specific breed the genetics are superior and all aspects of an animal are improved, they are more healthy, smarter, and make better dogs, I think that breeding is like anything there will be worthless dogs out of the best bred parents, and there will be worthless dogs that reporduce the next world champions. If there are people who want to cross outside of their breed for a trait of another breed they should be allowed to do it, the only thing that it would really affect is the appearance of the hound and when it is dark you cant get a good look at a dog anyway
john myers

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Posted by GEORGIA REDNECK on 02-18-2006 11:03 PM:

IT AINT WORTH IT

It aint worth it becus you cant keep em registerd wont be a purdy hound it wont wurth as much when you cross breed

IT JUST AINT RIGHT,
CODY

Posted by J. Wigley on 02-19-2006 04:46 PM:

Re: IT AINT WORTH IT

quote:
Originally posted by GEORGIA REDNECK
It aint worth it becus you cant keep em registerd wont be a purdy hound it wont wurth as much when you cross breed

IT JUST AINT RIGHT,
CODY

How long have you been out of your mind??? That is what is wrong with hounds now. Too many people think just because a hound has papers and is purdy it is worth somthing. How about Tn. Hard Rock? He is half B&T and Half Walker. He won another big one last night.That puts him over 73,000.00 won.
Oh Yea!!! He is registered and he is purdy.

__________________
Jim Wigley
Burr Oak Blueticks

Posted by Richard Nethery on 02-19-2006 05:08 PM:

Im not a Pro,

But I have a Friend that has over 50 Years of experience Coonhunting, and has hunted everything from Top of the Line Registered Hounds, of every breed, to Cross Bred Hounds, and Grade dogs.

And he told me, that the Greatest Hounds he has ever hunted were usually Cross Bred, or Grade.

He claims that in most hounds, that you either get too much of one trait, and not eneough of another, but with the Cross Bred hounds, and Grade hounds, they just seemed to be more ballanced.

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Posted by Jason Burden on 02-19-2006 05:42 PM:

should be able to breed a ukc black an tan with a ukc redbone and register it as crossbred but must be ukc reg

Posted by j myers on 02-20-2006 04:33 AM:

i think everyone is becoming to obsessed with the showing of coon dogs, who cares what it looks like, i only care about what I am lookning at when i shine a tree, I want to see meat, and when it is dark an ugly dog doesnt look so bad, I dont see why people are against crossbreeding when it improves the breed? Isnt that the whole purpose of registared breeding of hounds? To see what works and what doesnt?
John Myers

Posted by Joe O'Bryan on 04-15-2006 09:47 PM:

GOT CROSS BRED?

DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK!

THE POLL SAID IT ALL. ONE DOG IN MIND TN.HARD ROCK UKC AND AKC CALL HIM BLACK AND TAN,BUT IS HE?NO,HE IS HALF WALKER HALF BLACK AND TAN I CALL HIM CROSS BRED.STOP LIEING OR MISLEADING YOURSELF IF YOU THINK FOR ONCE HE'S A BLACK AND TAN MORE REASON TO CALL HIM WHAT HE RELLY IS(CROSS BRED).

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Posted by Richard Nethery on 04-16-2006 11:51 PM:

I saw a Picture last week,

A picture of a Cross Bred Hound, it was half Bluetick, and Half Treeing Walker.

It looked just like an English Coonhound, Exactly.

I have read up on it, and learned that the Walker and The Bluetick came from the English hound.

My Question is this, What is the diference between this Cross Bred Hound, and an English Coonhound?

I bet its exactly the same thing, only better.

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GRNITECH GR"CH "PR" KIZERS Bleedin Blue Slugger, Bluetick and PR Netherys Trixie Bluetick

Posted by Joe O'Bryan on 04-18-2006 12:53 AM:

STONE COLD

I ALSO SPOKE WITH SOMEONE AT UKC,AND I HAD A POST THAT GOT DELETED ABOUT CROSS BRED HOUNDS.I WAS TOLD THE SAME THING ABOUT THE ISSUE.A TOUCHY SUBJECT THAT SHOULDNT BE.
IT MAKES GOOD SENSE.DNA PROFILING IS ALSO A GOOD IDEA.
THEY SHOULD TAKE A LOOK @ THE POLL.

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