UKC Forums - Scratch Mentality

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-- Scratch Mentality (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928519066)

Posted by nitehunter2004 on 06-11-2019 12:54 AM:

Now Dave are you saying no one earned their 1st place win all these years? After All they hunted under UKC rules and UKC placement rules. Are you saying the AO National GrNtCh really isn’t the National GrNtCh? Here you are again belittling a mans win that hunted under UKC rules.

Posted by Dave Richards on 06-11-2019 01:24 AM:

Tim Osborne

If the shoe fits, that's what I am saying! Seriously, under the high score format, they won under that format and I am not knocking the "Winners", I am knocking the format. How on earth can someone really believe they were the true champion by only winning the cast they were in, never hunting against all the other cast winners? Just think what you want about that, tell yourself how good old blue really is and that he deserves to be the hunt winner because of his high score in one cast. I am not knocking anyone who wins under this format, but I am very critical of the format. I realize that this format was put in place by time constraints, but this format is tainted and is a poor substitute for a true winner. The new format of treating cast winners equal goes a long way to rectify this issue NOW we need to address the major hunts and go to a cast winner elimination style Champion. All this would eliminate the luck of the draw and a winner based on a 1 cast score. Dave

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Posted by nitehunter2004 on 06-11-2019 01:41 AM:

So now all cast winners are equal, but wait a minute UKC Performance points placement still goes by top 3 scores, 1st, 2nd, 3rd so shouldn’t they share their winnings with 4th, 5th etc etc? After all they drew a better guide than 4th place on down.

Posted by Dave Richards on 06-11-2019 01:54 AM:

Tim Osborne

I see logic is not your best attribute, sure there are always going to be situations that aren't equitable, but trying to resolve as many as one can is justified. Those that really think a 1 cast score is indictitive of a true winner are usually those with the best places to hunt to get those scores. If you do not think certain casts have a better chance of getting a higher score that the casts at large, you must have your head in the sand. It is common knowledge at most clubs that so and so cast will be put on coons, usually feeder buckets and plenty of them. Do you really think the winner of that cast deserves more that a cast winner hunting on public ground in thin coons? Dave

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Posted by yadkintar on 06-11-2019 02:26 AM:

Me thinks the way things look me being old with a selective memory is a wonderfull thing !!

Tar

Posted by Dave Richards on 06-11-2019 02:46 AM:

Tar

Resolving some of these issues won't benefit folks like me and you we are past our hunting prime. What these changes can do are help the younger generation and hopefully get more younger guys into the competition hunts. Numbers are pitiful at the hunts these days, the good old boy mentality has certainly hurt the numbers. Who wants to drive to a major hunt, only to get drawn out and hunt on public lands that have been hunted hard, while a few casts of good old boys hunt their honeyholes, knowing high score is going to win these hunts. Reformat these hunts to a cast winner elimination style winner and a true champion, where all cast winners have an equal chance of winning these hunts. Make these hunts fair to ALL that attend and not a select few that have the best hunting spots reserved for themselves, earn that title of Hunt Champion. Hunting for a title that actually means something, and not won by a l cast score. Dave

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Posted by Reuben on 06-11-2019 03:13 AM:

Quoting Dave Richards

Resolving some of these issues won't benefit folks like me and you we are past our hunting prime. What these changes can do are help the younger generation and hopefully get more younger guys into the competition hunts. Numbers are pitiful at the hunts these days, the good old boy mentality has certainly hurt the numbers. Who wants to drive to a major hunt, only to get drawn out and hunt on public lands that have been hunted hard, while a few casts of good old boys hunt their honeyholes, knowing high score is going to win these hunts. Reformat these hunts to a cast winner elimination style winner and a true champion, where all cast winners have an equal chance of winning these hunts. Make these hunts fair to ALL that attend and not a select few that have the best hunting spots reserved for themselves, earn that title of Hunt Champion. Hunting for a title that actually means something, and not won by a l cast score. Dave

excellent logic...

that would make it fair...like anything else the best dog might not win once in a while but day in and day out over time the best dog will win...over time the majority of the titled dogs are true champions and anyone who is shopping for a pup can look to these titled champions for a pup and the chances of buying a quality improves...makes perfect logical sense to me...

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-11-2019 03:41 AM:

Re: Scratch Mentality

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
How many ways to get scratched that have nothing to do with misconduct or aggression issues...
I read the polls on getting rid of the squalling rule or the silent on track rule and it leaves me scratching my head. I see one major issue and that is those who look for and hope for a reason to scratch a cast member instead of beating them by out coondoging.
I have an idea, if you would like for cast to be more enjoyable get rid of the scratch mentality this kennel club suffers much to often from and encourage the passing of some of these changes.
If your concern is getting beat by someone who blew on a squaller or is hunting a silent dog you have a whole lot bigger issues to worry about.
I also read a comment about breed standards... if that is a concern maybe what should be addressed is that the typical show dog looks nothing like the dogs in the parking lot for the hunt not the other way around.

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Posted by yadkinriver on 06-11-2019 01:20 PM:

What were we talking about? Something about how to treat an itch?

Posted by yadkintar on 06-11-2019 01:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
What were we talking about? Something about how to treat an itch?

All this makes my head hurt think I think I got the fishing pocks I am sick.

Tar

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-12-2019 03:20 PM:

Scratch for blowing a squaller.
Scratch on unseen off game.
Scratch for unseen aggression.
Scratch the cast winner for not putting a symbol on a card - even if you are a youth hunter, have vision problems or are not yet qualified to carry the card.
Scratch for dog being "silent". Babblers are minused.
Scratched for use of a mirror.
Circle him up for coming in after the judge and treeing on a possum lol!!!

Posted by Sgraves on 06-12-2019 03:41 PM:

Makes me wonder if we all need to do more pleasure hunting an let grandpa teaches all over again how a real coon dog should operate. Miss the days of laying on a pond bank in the sage grass with a big chew listening to him say how a dog should operate.People an dogs shouldn’t be this complicated.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-12-2019 03:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Makes me wonder if we all need to do more pleasure hunting an let grandpa teaches all over again how a real coon dog should operate. Miss the days of laying on a pond bank in the sage grass with a big chew listening to him say how a dog should operate.People an dogs shouldn’t be this complicated.

Good plan and the rules shouldn't be complicated either.

Posted by Dave Richards on 06-12-2019 10:40 PM:

Jen Cummings

Thank you for your hard work and determination to make UKC a solid place for competition hunting. While a lot of us older guys may not benefit from these changes, these changes are much needed. We need to address the inequities as much as possible and get back to the concept of the best dog winning the cast. While some advantages of better hunting ground, etc will ALWAYS be in place, eliminating these petty rules will go a long way. The future of our sport lies in the hands of our younger hunters, hopefully they can hunt under a set of Rules that promote the best dog winning , as that is the goal. Dave

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-13-2019 05:11 PM:

Re: Jen Cummings

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Thank you for your hard work and determination to make UKC a solid place for competition hunting. While a lot of us older guys may not benefit from these changes, these changes are much needed. We need to address the inequities as much as possible and get back to the concept of the best dog winning the cast. While some advantages of better hunting ground, etc will ALWAYS be in place, eliminating these petty rules will go a long way. The future of our sport lies in the hands of our younger hunters, hopefully they can hunt under a set of Rules that promote the best dog winning , as that is the goal. Dave

Dave I cannot take credit for any of the change proposals the few that we submitted were all the men folk around here ideas, I just typed. They know where every loop hole is that needs closed and what they think needs updated. This group of guys is at a hunt of some sort every weekend. With a 6 year old in the mist I've found it completely ridiculous that they need to teach him not only the rules but advisor interpretations of them. From my time here and at the countless hunts I've attended I have came to realize the mentally of scratching is much more prominent in UKC than any others in the people that primarily hunt them and the rules reflect it. They are not set up for neither the men packing coondogs nor the young new comer to the sport and truly aren't user friendly to those in between. No one has time to read through multiple issues of an advisor. The 7 ways of Sunday of getting scratched need to go along with the if you can't beat em' scratch em' mentality.

Posted by Dave Richards on 06-13-2019 09:06 PM:

Jen Cummings

Lol. Do not sell yourself short. You are a true asset to our sport, I realize that the men are the ones hunting in the hunts and are the ones that know the shortcomings of our rules. You are a big help in getting these issues and ideas brought to the attention of the rules committees. It's people like yourself that work behind the scenes that make a difference. I can see why the Clubs in your area are successful, it's the work of folks like yourself that truly care about our sport and the future if our younger hunters. Yes, you deserve all the thanks you get and a lot more. Dave

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-14-2019 09:52 PM:

Thank you for the compliment Dave I appreciate it.

Posted by berger on 06-15-2019 04:45 AM:

Re: Re: Jen Cummings

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
The 7 ways of Sunday of getting scratched need to go along with the if you can't beat em' scratch em' mentality.

The Scratch em mentality is the same mentality as the minus em mentality. scratch em or minus em is the same winning mentality if you can't beat em.

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Posted by Chuck Allen on 06-15-2019 04:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Good plan and the rules shouldn't be complicated either.

Yes Ma'am The Cummings Clan is spot on with this very issue , Coon hunting is a real simple sport , lets not make it more complicated we need to simplify things considerably IMHO.

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Posted by thomasg on 06-17-2019 02:14 AM:

Re: Scratch Mentality

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
How many ways to get scratched that have nothing to do with misconduct or aggression issues...
I read the polls on getting rid of the squalling rule or the silent on track rule and it leaves me scratching my head. I see one major issue and that is those who look for and hope for a reason to scratch a cast member instead of beating them by out coondoging.
I have an idea, if you would like for cast to be more enjoyable get rid of the scratch mentality this kennel club suffers much to often from and encourage the passing of some of these changes.
If your concern is getting beat by someone who blew on a squaller or is hunting a silent dog you have a whole lot bigger issues to worry about.
I also read a comment about breed standards... if that is a concern maybe what should be addressed is that the typical show dog looks nothing like the dogs in the parking lot for the hunt not the other way around.

my x-bred has no breed standards .lol the way i read the rules scratching offences other than aggression the 1 hour rule off game silent on track molesting live stock all are in place to keep misconduct at a minimum, shining a tree to early blowing a squaller to early not striking your hound on the 3rd bark calling some one elses dog for undo credit are all forms of misconduct offences,

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 09-09-2019 05:38 PM:

I just counted 5 changes either got rid of scratching rules or have been altered to help those that have made an honest mistake.
Thank you.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 09-09-2019 05:48 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Jen Cummings

quote:
Originally posted by berger
The Scratch em mentality is the same mentality as the minus em mentality. scratch em or minus em is the same winning mentality if you can't beat em.

That's right! Those that need to win that way dont go long before everyone loses all respect for them. It's usually guys trying to make up for their below average dog.

This sport is not hard. If a cast of guys is out there to see the best dog win and have a good time that is usually what happens.

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Posted by sox12 on 09-09-2019 06:43 PM:

why have some just don't want the better dog that night win?and where has a lot of sportsmanship go what used to be in a lot of hunts,some people wont shine a tree afraid if they find the coon that dog will beat them,that mentality is what ruins a lot of hunting for some young hunters told them not to shine another persons tree,the people who tell the young folks that should be barred,to me if you are barred in one association you should not be able to hunt in any registration at all and you would clean up a lot of the problems that you have going on now

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Posted by Kler Kry on 09-10-2019 02:30 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Jen Cummings

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
That's right! Those that need to win that way dont go long before everyone loses all respect for them. It's usually guys trying to make up for their below average dog.

This sport is not hard. If a cast of guys is out there to see the best dog win and have a good time that is usually what happens.

This is long over due. I've experienced it more in the other KC, but last year at the UKC Zone the judge wouldn't walk 20 feet to observe what was going on at the tree before making a decision. It has become a "Culture" in some areas to win by giving minus points instead of winning by EARNING plus point.

THANKS for your effort.

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