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-- Hybrid vigor ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928524958)

Here is a scenario on how breeding depression happens...

A breeder can be producing top dogs for many years...he started out line breeding from some of the best dogs that were line bred with some inbreeding...as time goes by he actually gets better results such as higher percentages of pups making the grade and some dogs that are actually better than previous breedings...but after 25 years he has been breeding dogs that are closely related top and bottom and breeding depression is now starting to appear...testicles are smaller...smaller litters, dogs not as big or as strong...

As competition hunter he wants a strong athletic specimen of a dog because he is competing against the very best...

So at this time he finds a top specimen with a 50 percent of his bloodline with a 50 percent unrelated bloodline that is a top hunting dog that basically has all the traits he likes in a coon dog...this is what will boost the hybrid vigor...

If that option is not available then find that unrelated dog and breed it to your dog and then breed the best pup back to your line of dogs...exact same thing but a longer time to see results...

So if either cross didn’t work get rid of the pups and look elsewhere and repeat the process...hopefully it will nick on the first try...
Hybrid vigor...every once in a while hybrid vigor lines up perfectly mentally and physically with the right hunting traits...such as BIG COUNTRY AND SAMBO...

seems folks are confusing that hybrid vigor will automatically create better hunting dogs...hybrid vigor can improve a dogs health and mental powers but It does not mean it will automatically make a hunting dog...you can also have healthy cull with improved hybrid vigor...

So bottom line for me...if I felt like I needed an outcross I would try to find a dog that compliments my dogs in every way possible especially if it can improve a weakness in my bloodline...

Usually line breeding does not lead to breeding depression because many times we can have close relatives in a linebred pedigree as well as no relationship with some dogs in the same pedigree...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Hybrid vigor

Wouldn't breeding a linebred/ inbred line of dogs that's getting "old stale blood" to different linebred/ inbred family of dogs be more vigorous hybrid than breeding to just any old hound into it.

Like example, Bad Habit was bred. 2 family of dogs crossed onto each other. With the line breeding you know consistently what it is on both sides.

You will be breeding dominant traits from a long line of good dogs on both sides. Not just breeding to the 1 dog from who knows whatbits out of. Could have been the only 1 dog in 3 generation that actually made a coon dog.

Maybe find someone in the same situation as you needing an outcross to freshen up their family of good dogs. Breed your best reproducing male to his best reproducing female. Then your best female to his best male. 2 litters and you guys keep them all until they're hunting and you know find out really fast what you have. I think the hybrid vigor would show in crosses more like this pairing of linebred on each side.

I’ll say that is a good option...but for me I would only add a little at a time...if I am only looking to eliminate breeding depression and not wanting to drastically change my bloodline then why would I want to breed two different dogs...only one pup would be needed to improve hybrid vigor...

In defenses in what you are saying...there is a larger amount of pups to choose from if done as you suggested...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Reuben

You gave a good explanation. IMO thats exactly how it's suppose to work. And I said SUPPOSE to work. Mother nature is a fickle old girl that doesn't always see things our way. Few people breed tight enough strains to see this work but if this was followed more closely you would see more consistency in breeding.

Just to keep the conversation going

Hybrid Vigor, Better known as Heterosis, is the increase in such characteristics as size, growth rate, fertility and yield of a hybrid organism over those of its parents. Animal breeders exploit heterosis by mating two different purebred lines that have certain desirable traits. This is also known as outbreeding enhancement.

So my .02 worth on this would be that we could introduce blue tick to walker or a walker bloodline to a walker bloodline that has not been crossed. But in doing these crosses it looks to me that the research to find a fitting cross would be rather extensive and time consuming you would have to study the traits of whichever new bloodline you would introduce from the average of all the offsprings hunting ability, brains and etc. I personally like the idea of attempting this but the more I research this it is not for the fly by night breeder. The problem would lie with all these one hit wonders... the single hound from what appeared to be an awesome cross that ended up being the only one worth feeding. To use such a hound would be taking a huge risk, not only by mixing your bloodline but mixing blood that has shown not to reproduce.

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(252) 213-6115 call or txt anytime
email: jeremyleeharris79@gmail.com

Jeremy Harris

"Outbreeding enhancement" I like that term. Has anyone seen that coonhounds are decreasing in size, fertility or growth rates? The hounds that I see seem to be getting larger not smaller. And the average size of litters now seems to be 8-10 when it used to be 6-8. And pups nowadays are huge and ready to go hunting at 4-6 mos old when we used to not hunt them until they were 12-18 mos old. It seems to me that they also have a lot more stamina. It is almost impossible to "hunt down" one of the hounds of today. After 7 days of hard hunting, most of them will come out of their house ready to go. And I have never even heard of a hound with hip dysplasia.

Mr. Lambert

Your last post was excellent and factual, hard to argue with facts. Bigger litters, bigger pups, plenty of drive, describes most litters today. Out crosses should be made for only one reason in my opinion and that is for ones own use. Breeding a top female to a top male where both dogs have the traits that YOU desire, trying to get that once in a lifetime dog. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Re: Reuben

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkinriver
You gave a good explanation. IMO thats exactly how it's suppose to work. And I said SUPPOSE to work. Mother nature is a fickle old girl that doesn't always see things our way. Few people breed tight enough strains to see this work but if this was followed more closely you would see more consistency in breeding.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
It is the improvement of form or function as the result of cross breeding.


Sure like that blue dog.



Tar

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Tarbaby, I hate to burst your bubble but "scientific" studies have been done that show there is no greater incidence of health problems with linebreeding/inbreeding than with outcrossing/crossbreeding. If you breed healthy individuals, you get healthy individuals whether they are related or not.

Now if you have an unhealthy female, it would be very difficult to "breed" that out of her pups. You would be much better off to just get a healthy female and start from there.

But if you have a healthy female and you are simply trying to introduce new traits into your line, then outcrossing or cross breeding can do that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Tarbaby, I hate to burst your bubble but "scientific" studies have been done that show there is no greater incidence of health problems with linebreeding/inbreeding than with outcrossing/crossbreeding. If you breed healthy individuals, you get healthy individuals whether they are related or not.

Now if you have an unhealthy female, it would be very difficult to "breed" that out of her pups. You would be much better off to just get a healthy female and start from there.

But if you have a healthy female and you are simply trying to introduce new traits into your line, then outcrossing or cross breeding can do that.

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Are you saying that only having one dingleberry is caused by too close breeding? I always thought that it was caused by a mutant gene. Now if you breed that dog, he can pass that mutant gene on to his offspring. But the gene can mutate on its own or be hereditary. From what I have read, it really has nothing to do with inbreeding. The male/female being bred can carry the recessive gene whether they are related or not. Of course if you linebreed the young male to his offspring you can get cryptochord males.
Once again, if you breed healthy individuals to healthy individuals, you will get healthy individuals whether you are linebreeding or outcrossing. But you have to cull any unhealthy individuals. If you linebreed those unhealthy individuals then you will increase the incidence of unhealthy individuals.
Now you will also have occasional problems caused by mutated genes whether you are linebreeding or outcrossing.

I'm sure it can happen from a mutation but Chryptorchidism is a highly hereditary fault. In the quarter horse world they are not supposed to be used for breeding. So I can certainly see where line breeding could intensify this fault.

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Tom Wood

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Richard you said the key to many issues and subjects we discuss on here.
"You have to cull"

Define the word cull an way you feel comfortable. But the quickest way to improve what we are doing is to eliminate a larger percentage of breeding dogs.

It's totally a personal choice and we can talk till we are blue in the face. One rotten apple can spoil a whole barrel.

Cull doesn't mean sell, give away, or make excuses for. It means to eliminate.

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Suppose you could forget looking at the papers until after you find out in the woods if the dogs, male or female, are even worth being bred in the first place.

I know......... that will never happen!!

So what percentage of coonhounds being bred today are crosses that are being made where the breeder actually has 1st hand knowledge through actual observation of both sire and dam performing in the woods on say at least (3) different occasions? How far back in the pedigree does the breeder actually have first hand knowledge of the dogs behind the two being mated?

Truth be known it's likely a very low percentage. Competition degrees don't necessarily indicate a dog is worth raising a litter from.

I honestly hope reproducing top hunting dogs of any kind never becomes predictable enough that really good ones are in abundance. If it does, inside of 10 years there won't be any game left to hunt!

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Dan

Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Richard you said the key to many issues and subjects we discuss on here.
"You have to cull"

Define the word cull an way you feel comfortable. But the quickest way to improve what we are doing is to eliminate a larger percentage of breeding dogs.

It's totally a personal choice and we can talk till we are blue in the face. One rotten apple can spoil a whole barrel.

Cull doesn't mean sell, give away, or make excuses for. It means to eliminate.

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Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Tarbaby, I hate to burst your bubble but "scientific" studies have been done that show there is no greater incidence of health problems with linebreeding/inbreeding than with outcrossing/crossbreeding. If you breed healthy individuals, you get healthy individuals whether they are related or not.

Now if you have an unhealthy female, it would be very difficult to "breed" that out of her pups. You would be much better off to just get a healthy female and start from there.

But if you have a healthy female and you are simply trying to introduce new traits into your line, then outcrossing or cross breeding can do that.

---

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Breeding dogs

I am NOT a Breeder, never wanted to be one, but I have been witness to several breeders over the years enough to know that ANY breeding is at best an educated guess at the outcome. I do know that back in the day of breeding coon dog to coon dog regardless of breed that we had some pretty nice coon dogs that were cross breeds. Registering dogs in order to hunt in the competition hunts stopped the process of cross breeding for the most part, even though some pleasure hunters continued to cross breed their dogs. Now that UKC has implemented the Cross Breed program, everyone has a chance to cross breed and register the offspring. NOT EVERY ONE SHOULD DO SO, only those with top females breeding to top males with the traits in both dogs being traits that are highly desired in the pups. Not every cross breeding will work anymore than every purebred cross will work, but it gives us access to superior traits in other breeds or dogs of other breeds. Some have forgot how the breeds of today got where they are, I have not forgotten, it was necessary to cross breed back in the day and it is needed in the present to better the breeds. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

We all can go back and forth on breeding and the best way to get the best result when in reality breeding a hound is a crap shoot at best. You take world champion and breed to a good female and you don’t get anything worth feeding breed back yard Rosie to road running Larry and boom you get a freakishly good dog. But the more research we do along with looking at the averages of hounds produced from whatever lineage the better off we are.

__________________
(252) 213-6115 call or txt anytime
email: jeremyleeharris79@gmail.com

Jeremy Harris

Re: Breeding dogs

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
I am NOT a Breeder, never wanted to be one, but I have been witness to several breeders over the years enough to know that ANY breeding is at best an educated guess at the outcome. I do know that back in the day of breeding coon dog to coon dog regardless of breed that we had some pretty nice coon dogs that were cross breeds. Registering dogs in order to hunt in the competition hunts stopped the process of cross breeding for the most part, even though some pleasure hunters continued to cross breed their dogs. Now that UKC has implemented the Cross Breed program, everyone has a chance to cross breed and register the offspring. NOT EVERY ONE SHOULD DO SO, only those with top females breeding to top males with the traits in both dogs being traits that are highly desired in the pups. Not every cross breeding will work anymore than every purebred cross will work, but it gives us access to superior traits in other breeds or dogs of other breeds. Some have forgot how the breeds of today got where they are, I have not forgotten, it was necessary to cross breed back in the day and it is needed in the present to better the breeds. Dave

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__________________
(252) 213-6115 call or txt anytime
email: jeremyleeharris79@gmail.com

Jeremy Harris

bigdiezel79

I am old school and remember the days of mostly grade dogs in these mountains, rarely seen s registered dog back then, but the coonhunters tried to breed the best coon dog to the best coon dog and that practice worked pretty good. Now you rarely seen several generations of the same breeding just because of the practice of breeding best to best regardless of breed. I see the benefit of cross breeding in getting the best traits of both dogs being bred, where both digs are top coon dogs and have the traits you desire. I only advocate breeding the best to the best regardless of breed to get the best traits. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

I completely agree with you. Coonhound to Coonhound regardless of breed is the best way. I was raised in the era of breed to what works, just like in quarter horses and mules my grandfather raised. He bred what worked the best and got some outstanding offspring.

__________________
(252) 213-6115 call or txt anytime
email: jeremyleeharris79@gmail.com

Jeremy Harris

Years ago I remember the old timers stayed away from breeding closely related dogs...some of those old timers would say it made the dogs stupid...etc...etc...and they did have good dogs...I think the Mt cur dogs were a mixture of hound and cur using that type of breeding philosophy...I believe that old style Mt cur was a great all around dog for hunting and guarding the farm and hen house ( my opinion)...

However I will say that breeding best to best within a well bred family of dogs will produce more of the same...and when you know that the close relatives from both sides of the sire and dam are outstanding dogs which is a big plus...and there is a father and daughter in that family of dogs that are outstanding in every way...why not breed them and then pick the best pups from that litter...chances are most of these pups will someday be hunting dogs we can be proud of...and the possibility of having a pup or two in that litter that can actually be better than the sire and dam is there...this is the route I would choose...but I will also have the option to outcross at any time...I choose this option because the probability of getting a higher percentage of quality pups is in my favor...

I also think that breeding within the family we know exactly how each dog hunted for quite a few generations...which I see this as a big plus...

When breeding best to the best we might not always know how the grandsires, grand dams or even further back on how they hunted...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Years ago I remember the old timers stayed away from breeding closely related dogs...some of those old timers would say it made the dogs stupid...etc...etc...and they did have good dogs...I think the Mt cur dogs were a mixture of hound and cur using that type of breeding philosophy...I believe that old style Mt cur was a great all around dog for hunting and guarding the farm and hen house ( my opinion)...

However I will say that breeding best to best within a well bred family of dogs will produce more of the same...and when you know that the close relatives from both sides of the sire and dam are outstanding dogs which is a big plus...and there is a father and daughter in that family of dogs that are outstanding in every way...why not breed them and then pick the best pups from that litter...chances are most of these pups will someday be hunting dogs we can be proud of...and the possibility of having a pup or two in that litter that can actually be better than the sire and dam is there...this is the route I would choose...but I will also have the option to outcross at any time...I choose this option because the probability of getting a higher percentage of quality pups is in my favor...

I also think that breeding within the family we know exactly how each dog hunted for quite a few generations...which I see this as a big plus...

When breeding best to the best we might not always know how the grandsires, grand dams or even further back on how they hunted...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Reuben

Cross breeding may not be for everyone, my thoughts are it's for those wanting fast results that may be produced by breeding the best to the best regardless if breed. If anyone is going to be a long time breeder, they probably should stick with a certain breed and breed the best to the best. Old time hunters were not interested in generation type breeding as much as going for litters from the best dogs available regardless of breed. Cross breeding is just another tool and certainly not the only tool available. If anyone has a line of dogs that suit them and has the traits they desire that their line reproduces consistently, they better stick with that line of dogs. Cross breeding should only be done to strengthen or infuse the traits lacking in the dog/s one has. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses