UKC Forums - Nite Hunt Scenario

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 03-06-2018 05:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
Well I guess it's my turn to be wrong . At first I agreed with Redneck Mafia but the coon wasn't seen ( not if ) . So therefore it has to be scored. As far as a place of refuge , lol . That's a place where the coon could be hiding to me so I don't see that . So I would score it as A -225 , B -75 , C - 100 . Cut dogs loose back in for next available points which is 50 & 25 .

But the big question that's not answered is was the honey bun white icing or glazed ? That could make a difference.

after thinking more about this I changed my ruling on this . I would minus A -225 both ways , B
-75 leaving , C-50 strikes points only because there's NO tree to assign for the next available

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Posted by brian gilley on 03-07-2018 05:40 PM:

yall are making this harder than it is and looking for loop holes.
dog A minus both ways
dog b minus tree for being treed and not staying treed( regardless of what it is on)
dog c- minus his strike points and minus next available ( for a slick tree, a 2 foot tall broke off snag that isn't hollow, roll of wire, old scrap car, cage etc.) if he is at the end of a track and showing treed when you get there he gets next available. If he was doing what he was supposed to ie treeing on a tree with a coon , he would not be in this situation. He is just as wrong as dog A, so he get next available.

It being a trap, only comes in to play, if there is a coon in it. for obvious reasons...not fair chase and people could plant traps in there spots for quick and guaranteed points. without a coon in it, there is no reason for a dog to be treeing on it ( the dogs need some correcting!!). The coon being in the trap is what gives it the viable reason to delete.

This is just my opinion, of coarse. Like everyone, i have been mistaken before. However, the more thinking you do on it, the less common sense is applied. You can always add buts and ifs to a situation and twist one rule against another. This is a competiton hunt , which going back to the basics is did the dogs strike and tree a coon? If they did not, then take our minus, drive on and laugh back at the club with everyone and tell the story with a smile on our face. Do this and everyone will be glad to draw you at the next hunt and you will have another enjoyable one, even if the dogs don't operate properly. When you score correctly and don't make excuses, your wins have more merit in everyone eyes.

Posted by thomasg on 03-07-2018 06:58 PM:

MUST HAVE BEEN A OLE GHOST COON .LOL SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF THEM NOW DAYS 25 % LOL

Posted by Charles Pullen on 03-07-2018 07:03 PM:

Answer

Think about this and it would apply here as the same . We all agree B dog gets 75 for leaving . The A & C is where is all the differences of opinions " You would score it same as if they had a coon in a hole .Why because a trap isn't a tree . " A gets strike & tree points ( only cause he treed his dog ) , C gets strike points only !

A -225
B-75
C-50

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Posted by joey on 03-07-2018 07:40 PM:

Charles, thats what I have been saying from the start, it might be wrong and UKC might say to delete A and C. Dog B will get minus no matter what. I would say wait and see but as long as it has taken and no UKC answer I'm assuming they hope it will go away.

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 03-07-2018 08:17 PM:

Re: Answer

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
Think about this and it would apply here as the same . We all agree B dog gets 75 for leaving . The A & C is where is all the differences of opinions " You would score it same as if they had a coon in a hole .Why because a trap isn't a tree . " A gets strike & tree points ( only cause he treed his dog ) , C gets strike points only !

A -225
B-75
C-50

I believe this is the correct scoring. For these reasons.

It has always been contended that once a dog is treed it is accountable for those points.(exception rules may apply)
No dog can be taken off a track without calling those points minus(exception rules may apply).

If Dog A had never been treed the cast could have backed away and hoped the dogs would tire of the trap and continue on with Dog B on trail.
Whether the hole rule as stated above which they could have been caught ,I don't agree with that application in this instance. In a hole case circle strike could had been applied if it had in fact been a hole.
Once Dog A and C were handled they were accountable for their strike points.

The backing away would had been similar to using the stationary rule. They want to stay there all night they will get no credit/discredit until the handler decides to catch them off the trap or they leave on their own.
But as stated once A was treed It became accountable.

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 03-07-2018 08:27 PM:

A dog struck and treed , C struck only , get there and they're in a hole . Coon seen during the shine time A gets 225 + so C would get strike points only 50 + . Like I said above not being a tree I don't see awarding him (c) on tree points on a trap . Place of refuge ( Lol ) , I definitely don't see that . That's why I see it somewhat similar to a hole scoring but this hole has a minus .

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Posted by yadkintar on 03-07-2018 08:39 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joey
Charles, thats what I have been saying from the start, it might be wrong and UKC might say to delete A and C. Dog B will get minus no matter what. I would say wait and see but as long as it has taken and no UKC answer I'm assuming they hope it will go away. [/QUOTE

I can see how it could be a hard decision being how a honeybun is an important part of office supply's. That being torn on if a honeybun is off game or.......... Not.

Tar

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-07-2018 09:13 PM:

If y'all don't think that a trap can be a situation all to its own and be scored with different rules then why is a hole scored with its own set of rules. Only in the case of a hole does only one dog have to "show" the hole. Other dogs can be milling all around and not get minused as long as one is barking or digging in the hole.

Posted by brian gilley on 03-07-2018 09:18 PM:

??? +50 on a hole with coon seen , that the dog was not treed in on?i don't believe so.The only way to get +50 on it, is if they can get their mouths on it. In this case, there would be no +225. it would be +100 for strike points only.

Posted by joey on 03-07-2018 09:26 PM:

Brian, you do not have to be treed in on a hole to get plussed on your strike. You also do not assign tree points to one in a hole and not treed if the hole is slick.

Richard, only one has to show the hole but the others cant just be milling around. The dog showing the hole is the one in it. The others still need to be by the hole they just dont have to be in it. The wording on that one throughs a lot of people and just like a tree its up to the judge on how far they can be from the hole.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 03-07-2018 09:39 PM:

I see every ones point of view and reasons .
These are my reasons.
If the trap had of held a coon .This situation has been addressed in past times.
This is an empty box trap. It is any ones guess when it last held a coon , or even why it is setting empty in the middle of the woods, even if there was any fresh scent. Putting that aside. These dogs where barking at an inanimate object.
Whether it is a box trap or an old water bucket . A log on the ground.Maybe even a feeder tire a coon visited earlier in the evening. It is an in animate object that at one time held coon scent.
The only reason a coon cannot be scored in a box trap is because of fair chase rules
The fact that it is an empty box trap I don't think should enter into the decision because of my stated above reasons..

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-07-2018 09:50 PM:

I have seen handlers run their dog down, call them in and many other situations and not get minused because "only one dog has to show the hole". No where does it say how close or how far the other dogs can be away. I have questioned this several times because I disagree and taken it back to several MOH and they have all ruled against me.

Posted by brian gilley on 03-07-2018 09:57 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joey
[B]Brian, you do not have to be treed in on a hole to get plussed on your strike. You also do not assign tree points to one in a hole and not treed if the hole is slick.

Let me see if this is correct. a dog strikes for 100 goes left. next 3 strike and go 3/4 mile straight in. these 3 tree in. 5 is up, you go to the tree. 45 minutes later, you get there and its a hole. you realize all 4 dogs are there now. pull them out of a hole and see a coon in it( that by some miracle the dogs did not get hold of). You are plussing the 3 that treed in on strike and tree.. and plussing the strike points on the one , that did not tree in( even if he got there 20 minutes late? Wow, I have been doing some things wrong then.... or maybe others have. i can understand plusing strike points on a dog not treed, if they catch a coon but... whatever

Posted by joey on 03-07-2018 10:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by brian gilley
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joey
[B]Brian, you do not have to be treed in on a hole to get plussed on your strike. You also do not assign tree points to one in a hole and not treed if the hole is slick.

Let me see if this is correct. a dog strikes for 100 goes left. next 3 strike and go 3/4 mile straight in. these 3 tree in. 5 is up, you go to the tree. 45 minutes later, you get there and its a hole. you realize all 4 dogs are there now. pull them out of a hole and see a coon in it( that by some miracle the dogs did not get hold of). You are plussing the 3 that treed in on strike and tree.. and plussing the strike points on the one , that did not tree in( even if he got there 20 minutes late? Wow, I have been doing some things wrong then.... or maybe others have. i can understand plusing strike points on a dog not treed, if they catch a coon but... whatever

A dog does not have to be treed in on a hole. You can just go to it and score it. So as long as the dog got there before you did then yes he will get his strike plussed.

Richard, how many times have you seen a rule done wrong over and over because thats how they always did it? It will be up to the judge on if the dog is at the hole or not. If they are doing it different they are doing it wrong.

Posted by jkidd1 on 03-07-2018 10:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
A dog struck and treed , C struck only , get there and they're in a hole . Coon seen during the shine time A gets 225 + so C would get strike points only 50 + . Like I said above not being a tree I don't see awarding him (c) on tree points on a trap . Place of refuge ( Lol ) , I definitely don't see that . That's why I see it somewhat similar to a hole scoring but this hole has a minus .

In this situation here in order for Dog A to get tree points he had to be declared treed (5mins ran), and if dog C wasn't declared treed and coon was seen he would be sitting with 50-

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Posted by yadkintar on 03-07-2018 10:23 PM:

I don't like rule questions but I would minus both dogs that are struck and treed there is clearly no coon there. If the other dog trails away recut for 25 strike. I got a problem deleting a dog treed and showing treed on anything empty jmo.

Tar

Posted by Allen / UKC on 03-07-2018 10:24 PM:

Sorry folks. I've been advised of this question but have not had the time to research before responding. I'd first like to see what exactly has been written on box trap scenarios.

Until then, I have two questions...

1) How long have you been hunting in nite hunts?

2) How many times have you seen dogs treed on an empty box trap?

lol.

Posted by brian gilley on 03-07-2018 10:27 PM:

33 years .. never seen it happen. it would be a funny conversation piece and i would take my minus with a smile. The dog would not be happy though!!LOL

Posted by yadkintar on 03-07-2018 10:27 PM:

Allen in Oklahoma empty means slick means minus lol.

Tar

Posted by Charles Pullen on 03-07-2018 10:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Sorry folks. I've been advised of this question but have not had the time to research before responding. I'd first like to see what exactly has been written on box trap scenarios.

Until then, I have two questions...

1) How long have you been hunting in nite hunts?

2) How many times have you seen dogs treed on an empty box trap?

lol.

1) I'm 52 and been hunting nite hunts around 60yrs

2) Few times but it was always a Redbone 😜

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Posted by Bob Hennessey on 03-07-2018 10:34 PM:

Enough posts to fill 5 pages. No wonder people are always crying (I got cheated.)

Posted by novicane65 on 03-07-2018 10:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
1) I'm 52 and been hunting nite hunts around 60yrs

2) Few times but it was always a Redbone 😜

either there's a typo if you've been hunting linger than you've been alive.

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 03-07-2018 11:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
either there's a typo if you've been hunting linger than you've been alive.

I just had a chance to rattle Allen's chain that's all . It's just a joke . Lol

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Posted by joey on 03-07-2018 11:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Sorry folks. I've been advised of this question but have not had the time to research before responding. I'd first like to see what exactly has been written on box trap scenarios.

Until then, I have two questions...

1) How long have you been hunting in nite hunts?

2) How many times have you seen dogs treed on an empty box trap?

lol.

Somewhere around 30 years and I have seen it once. It was the guides dog and he had a guy running ahead of us cutting coons loose. We pulled up on him on the third drop and caught him leaving. He panicked and forgot to pick up the trap. Ive seen dogs bay coons in leg hold traps several times. What happens if we find one barking at a empty leg hold trap?

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