UKC Forums - High Drive

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-- High Drive (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928494811)

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-20-2017 10:58 PM:

Aftershock would be one. He did a lot of winning and had plenty of hunt.

Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-21-2017 12:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Aftershock would be one. He did a lot of winning and had plenty of hunt.

Ah, and the truth shall set you free. Doesn’t it feel great when people don’t have to read between the lines, especially your lines?

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-21-2017 12:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Aftershock would be one. He did a lot of winning and had plenty of hunt.

Finally....something we can agree on

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Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
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Posted by RedScorpion on 11-21-2017 05:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
i don't have red dogs but blue dogs and this thread has sparked my interest...most fellows have more common sense than to want a hound like that. yes they can win but most don't want to hunt them or can't handle them if they were real honest...how many want this? yes there are a few handlers that can pass this test but they are fewer than the dogs that can...maybe what i have posted sounds a little on the negative side but its not meant to be i just think most people need to be realistic about what they can handle and enjoy that. great dogs can come with a handle on them and can be extremely enjoyable.

You make some very good points and what you say is true for many people's taste in coonhounds. However, what I and several others are talking about is increasing the average drive in almost all breeds, for the most part. Still others are talking about increasing drive in competition hounds toward the extreme (or towards what it takes to win).

So what does the statement "increasing drive" really mean and what will be the reality of that endeavor. If I understand breeding principles correctly, in order to increase the average performance, one must breed toward the extreme over several generations, and be vigilant to keep out lazy dogs (we are talking about one trait here: drive). What you are describing is tending toward the extreme, and this is something many on here say they want, and more power to them for dealing with it. But what I am saying, if you look toward the AVERAGE performance of our hounds of all breeds, it appears we need to turn up the "drive dial" a little...we need a higher percentage of dogs with more drive from each litter...And in order to do that, we cannot breed the "brood" female that doesn't do anything but stand at your feet. We need to breed the females that get out there, hustle, and hunt (have drive). Every time someone breeds that lazy female and lazy male, he is pulling down the average in the gene pool for that particular trait. If we increase the average in a particular trait, we will get more dogs (a higher percentage) that tend toward the extreme for that trait. Of course, as Mr. Outlaw described, above, you must balance your breeding for all of the other traits that are important, too...and theoretically, if we can move the breed forward in this way, perhaps we can make everybody happy with the final product.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-21-2017 07:06 PM:

When you say "average" are you talking about "balanced"? Are you saying that you think that we should breed a female with a lot of drive to an average or balanced male? Or breed an average or balanced female to a male with a lot of drive? But of course they must have all of the other traits that we want also.
And do you really think that everyone will ever be happy?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-21-2017 07:31 PM:

Just as an example, do y'all think that if I take a nice balanced female like Gr Nt Wilma and breed her to a male with a whole lot of drive like Gr Nt Boone:
Some of the pups will have a lot of drive like Boone
Some of the pups will hunt like Wilma
Some of the pups will have drive somewhere In between Wilma and Boone?

Posted by RedScorpion on 11-21-2017 07:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
When you say "average" are you talking about "balanced"? Are you saying that you think that we should breed a female with a lot of drive to an average or balanced male? Or breed an average or balanced female to a male with a lot of drive? But of course they must have all of the other traits that we want also.
And do you really think that everyone will ever be happy?

You pointed out some fuzziness in my words and I went back to edit what I wrote.

When I talk about average (remember, we are focused on one trait in this discussion), I am talking about the average amount of drive per litter (there would be more dogs with more drive per litter)...in that case, balance applies as a quantitative description between what you think is too much drive and too little. In that context, I think our coonhounds (on average) do not have enough drive. Yes some have too much and many have too little. To have a meaningful discussion, we must agree that we are talking about average; the extreme will take care of itself if we improve the average drive, in my opinion. So average drive means that, on average, more dogs in each litter will have more drive than we presently see...then the line breeding or inbreeding or trait matching process starts to lock it in.

If this theory is not correct, this method will at least help the people looking for extremes to get there faster with less culling in their breeding programs.

When I think of the way "balance" is used in a coonhound, I think it applies to the balance of all of the traits together that make up the dog, and not just one trait.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-21-2017 07:46 PM:

Yes, that makes a lot of sense now. That is if you think that you can breed more drive in and can do it in increments. Myself, I would rather increase the average drive and work from there than to increase the extreme drive and then try to tone it down to get a better average. But first increasing the extreme is another way of doing it. I don't know which is the "best" way. I would hate to be the one that had to hunt those extreme dogs down here where I live however. Boone is too much for me to keep up with now.

Posted by Have One Reds on 11-21-2017 07:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I would hate to be the one that had to hunt those extreme dogs down here where I live however. Boone is too much for me to keep up with now.

Those are the ones you sell to the competition hunters.

__________________
Dan Delp

Posted by RedScorpion on 11-23-2017 04:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Just as an example, do y'all think that if I take a nice balanced female like Gr Nt Wilma and breed her to a male with a whole lot of drive like Gr Nt Boone:
Some of the pups will have a lot of drive like Boone
Some of the pups will hunt like Wilma
Some of the pups will have drive somewhere In between Wilma and Boone?

Hoosier Outlaw already answered your question...and how those traits line up will determine if you get a good one or a common one...This is not an easy game, and your only hope is to start with animals with most of the traits that you like and only work on a scant few to polish the final product.

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
....you get some pups that take after one parent and some that take after the other and you may get a trait swap on one or two pups.
To put it simply....breed a tight mouth quick tree dog to an open mouth not so quick tree dog and a certain percentage of the pups will be more like one parent and the rest will be like the other....in most traits. There might be some minor differences like type of mouth or volume or color and this really depends on how dominant those traits were in any particular parent.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-23-2017 01:11 PM:

But he is just one person. I was trying to find out what several different people thought so that I could get an "average". I don't like to go by just one person's opinion.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-26-2017 03:04 PM:

This is what happens when you hunt a dog with drive like Boone. He is just too much for young and old....

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 11-26-2017 03:20 PM:

We're they tired or just bored lol

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Posted by oklared on 11-26-2017 04:09 PM:

HUNT IN A COON PEN YOU DONT NEED HI-DRIVE

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Posted by jkhutch on 11-27-2017 03:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
We're they tired or just bored lol

That’s funny. It wasn’t a real exciting hunt. Boone treed one at .87 and then at 950. We got to drive most of the way!!

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Posted by oklared on 11-29-2017 06:16 PM:

IF YOU HAVE A DOG WITH HI-DRIVE LOAD HIM AND HEAD FOR BATTLE OF THE BREEDS AT ADA OKLA, YOU WILL SEE IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH HI-DRIVE OR IF YOU NEED TO ADD A LITTLE MORE.

SECOND WEEK IN DEC.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-17-2017 03:21 PM:

Oh my goodness, I read the play by play of the World Championship last night. The dog that won was the one that treed a coon right out of the truck within 5 minutes. Deep and alone dogs got beat. I wonder what is up with that?

Posted by Adam Wingler on 12-17-2017 03:37 PM:

Feeders...duh

Posted by okreddog56 on 12-17-2017 04:53 PM:

DOGS WITH REAL DRIVE THAT START HUNTING FROM THE TRUCK WILL GET ONE RIGHT FROM THE TRUCK AND THEN DEEP AND ALONE.

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Posted by George pouliott on 03-27-2018 01:11 AM:

Bringing this post back up . Definitely peaked my interest . When saying breeding for deep independent dog's or well balanced I understand what that entails . But I haven't seen it either of them . I have owned several redbones some off big winner's some not . And I've only had 1 out of all of them I've had that hunted over 300 yrds . And I'm serious only 1 and I've pushed and given dog's every chance they ever needed . And not just one line but several . Good money spent and quite a bit of traveling to find just that well balanced dog. Down here a dog needs to have drive ( want to get treed with the meat willing to go 6 or 8 hundred yards if need be but not passing coons to tree coons ) and not be afraid of water . Most everything I've owned has been a natural me too dog . Now they may run their own track 2 3 hundred yards but will go that far to back a dog whether it's right or wrong .

So I guess I'm interested in who's breeding these independent driven tree dog's with brain's that aren't afraid of the dark or water that I can pull off a tree whether it be 100 yrds or 1 mile .

Also I'll add I haven't hunted across the state's to see first hand this is just my experience with the red dog's I've hunted the last 5 yrs

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Posted by Conrad Sharpe on 03-27-2018 01:26 AM:

High Drive

Mr. Pouliott,
I was replying to your comment on redbones that will not hunt far, and I would love for you to join to see the two males I have at home. Both of these hounds will make the garmin lose signal, and easily take a track over 1000 yards and have the coon independently. If you’re willing to see what a high powered redbone coonhound looks like my address is 415 pine grove rd, blythewood sc. please give me a call, you’re more than welcome to come and hunt one night! 8037307852
-Conrad Sharpe

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 03-27-2018 02:51 AM:

Conrad, how are they bred?

And, George, ida quit redbones from the word go if that’s the deepest I had ever seen one go. Heck, I’d have to quit coon hunting period.

Posted by Matt Roberts on 03-27-2018 03:10 AM:

I’d also be interested to know how Mr Sharpes dogs are bred. I’m like Adam, If mine won’t hunt a minimum of 800 yards to half a mile alone I may as well quit. Granted they don’t have to hunt that way all the time but I like one that will get a mile or more deep if they have to.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-27-2018 03:53 AM:

George, take Mr Sharpe up on his offer. I did once and had a great time. And I sent my female down there the next time she came in heat. Maybe you need to get out of Florida.

Posted by kasey dooly on 03-27-2018 05:22 AM:

Book Em Danno is the answer to a lot of questions you guys have on this board. Most are just too hard headed to breed to him or buy a pup off him. Danno is by no means perfect, but the only reason he is in my kennel is because of his heart and drive! I am a competition hunter to the core and before I hunted with Danno I had no desire to own a Redbone, Period. This dog has never let me down as far as going hunting with no quit. I have bred him to Red females and produced drive, I bred him to walker dogs and got drive, English and Bluetick and still got pups that will leave your feet and get in the dark. He will be dead and gone before most of yall ever recognize him, but oh well, Ive had a blast winning with this dog, treeing coons, alone and never giving up. It takes a hard going dog with heart and drive to win top level hunts. In todays world there is hundreds of thousands of dollars out there to be won with a hound like this. If its not your game, so be it, but for me, im all In!

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