UKC Forums - Increasing Performance point payouts

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Increasing Performance point payouts (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928485864)

Posted by rob thompson on 07-25-2017 10:57 PM:

Re: Re: No money

quote:
Originally posted by H.W. Moore
What papers mean=a family tree someone paid $20+ to look at occasionally.
Sports fade & times change. A hunter should help slow it down every chance he gets..
If people can't afford an additional $20-50 yearly they likely can't afford to own or properly care for an animal.
Papers are important when selling animals, typically the more you have the better..

papers help sell dogs to dog traders, ability sells them to coon hunters! Period. And Jim is right!

Posted by yadkintar on 07-25-2017 11:19 PM:

If you are not going to go to the hunts with big enough numbers to get the maximum points looks like you would be loosing $$$.

Jim I might be wrong if I am correct me you could finish a dog into Grntch at 3 and 4 dog hunts at 1/4 points a hunt and in 8 hunts only earned about $200 but I am probly wrong ....... Again lol.

Posted by rob thompson on 07-25-2017 11:21 PM:

Ukc I don't think is interested in making any changes at all, so I think we are beating a dead horse here.

Posted by H.W. Moore on 07-26-2017 02:05 AM:

Agreed.. Its sad to, they had a shot to help owners, hunters, breeders, clubs and the sport and have chose to let this program dwindle down to the point it's no longer relevant.

Posted by H.W. Moore on 07-26-2017 02:21 AM:

Re: Re: Re: No money

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
That one is 100% completely bogus. It has not one thing to do with what I can afford, it has everything to do with what I chose to pay. I'll pay $30 to gamble on a 6 month old pup. I wont no way pay $50-80 to gamble on that pup.

I can't imagine not having enough faith in a pup or my training ability to not pay an extra $20 for a chance at a substantial return, but to each their own.. Only 10% goes to UKC, the rest to the folks out there keeping the sport I love alive. If my next pups a cull I'm very happy knowing the $ I put in the fund will go in a man's pocket that's hitting the hunts, helping the club and keeping the sport alive..

Posted by JiM on 07-26-2017 02:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
If you are not going to go to the hunts with big enough numbers to get the maximum points looks like you would be loosing $$$.

Jim I might be wrong if I am correct me you could finish a dog into Grntch at 3 and 4 dog hunts at 1/4 points a hunt and in 8 hunts only earned about $200 but I am probly wrong ....... Again lol.

Yeah, you are way wrong. The last dog of mine that titled did it mostly at hunts that didnt pay PRP points, Super Slams, Rqe. I cant ever remember winning a 3 or 4 dog hunt with any of my dogs. Our numbers are down but we still have very few one cast hunts around here.

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Posted by JiM on 07-26-2017 02:59 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: No money

quote:
Originally posted by H.W. Moore
I can't imagine not having enough faith in a pup or my training ability to not pay an extra $20 for a chance at a substantial return, but to each their own.. Only 10% goes to UKC, the rest to the folks out there keeping the sport I love alive. If my next pups a cull I'm very happy knowing the $ I put in the fund will go in a man's pocket that's hitting the hunts, helping the club and keeping the sport alive..

And that is your choice. So don't go saying anyone who choses otherwise is too poor to own a dog.

Posted by jdgher on 07-26-2017 07:11 AM:

Competition and recognition gets people to show up.

Maybe this would work. UKC could show the performance breed leaders (put it where everybody see's it, on the website, on the message board, in the magazine etc....) Big and bold, so people would see it without searching for it. Everyone couldn't help but know which dogs are performing, which dogs are reproducing the winners. Overall leaders and breed leaders. Make a big deal out of it. This might get people out to the hunts.
Trophy's, well those are nice and a big deal at first, then after awhile, for most, not so good. They collect dust and aren't fun to clean up. If you have a trophy room, then maybe they are cool.
Recognition is really where it's at.
Simplify the registration/performance nomination, just make it so all pups will be performance paid up. Raise the registration fee for all pups and a % of the registration fee goes to the performance fund. If people choose not to go compete for the money, then their loss.
Just a thought.

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Posted by joey on 07-26-2017 07:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
If you are not going to go to the hunts with big enough numbers to get the maximum points looks like you would be loosing $$$.

Jim I might be wrong if I am correct me you could finish a dog into Grntch at 3 and 4 dog hunts at 1/4 points a hunt and in 8 hunts only earned about $200 but I am probly wrong ....... Again lol.

Tar on average you would get between 5 to 600 for finishing a dog to a grand in a year with $160 in entries for 8 wins. At least around here. The same 8 wins at local money hunts would get you between 500 to 600 with $240 in entries. The Pay out is the same but the entry is more for the money hunts. The thing is in the money hunts after 8 wins you keep going. In UKC you are done. See the problem with that business plan?

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Posted by H.W. Moore on 07-26-2017 11:28 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No money

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
And that is your choice. So don't go saying anyone who choses otherwise is too poor to own a dog.

If you could afford to pay & don't, that's just bad financial decision making. As originally posted slight increases across the board would substantially help the program, help the breeders, help the owners, help the clubs & help the sport. As point values continue to fall less people see it as beneficial to pay their dogs up and in return checks continue to fall for those who are wanting to compete and earn..

Posted by yadkintar on 07-26-2017 01:07 PM:

How many dogs do you have to win against to get a full point I looked I can't find it.

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 07-26-2017 01:56 PM:

Joey. You are exactly right and you hit on the nail on the head why people choose to pay more but win less.

In Money Hunts you KEEP GOING. I think the part UKC needs to look at is the KEEP GOING.

You connect the KEEP GOING part to qualifying for the bigger hunts and keep state standings to get recognition. You have just came up with the secret sauce.

In your example it takes $240 to win 500 to 600 bucks. Thats not as good a deal as UKC. But the the benefits are bigger. Those dollars earned get you to the State Hunt. Those dollars earned get you to National and World hunts. Those dollars earned get you to SS Hunts. The main thing is those dollars earned are listed and State standings are kept on who is doing what in each state.

You increase the benefits of a program and you can increase the cost to play. You also have to make an evaluation on how the money on these programs will be divided up. You can give a little to a lot of people which I think the Performance Program does. Or you can give more to fewer people. The more to fewer people brings out the competition in people which is what this is all about. That also means more entries which causes the snowball to grow.

Getting a $100 or $150 back on a worthless dog that got lucky a few times during the year does nothing but give people a false sense they have a coonhound and a reason to keep the mutt. You make them go against the best dogs in their state or the nation to win a bigger prize and you will see an overall increase in the performance of the hounds.

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Posted by yadkintar on 07-26-2017 02:22 PM:

Bruce with any program or buissness as it grows you will have to hire more staff to take care of it properly right now it is controllable if the PP was set up like you suggested to grow I think it should have its own staff to take care of nothing but that. When you get $$$ involved I think the small numbers under the hunt dirrector format could be a problem believe it or not there are a lot of clubs out there that do not want about 4 dogs to show up at their hunts ( their own ) you see a lot of the problems over $$$ that the $$$ kcs have and they at all their bigger hunts and they are fully staffed and they still try and pull the hanky panky. I think there are several like you, Jim, Joey,HW , and ukc staff should get together somewhere without interruption to plan somthing like this because it needs to be well thought out before anything is ever implemented. Jmo.

Posted by JiM on 07-26-2017 04:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
How many dogs do you have to win against to get a full point I looked I can't find it.

It takes 10 dogs to get 1 point. 2 points is the max that can be won at an event. 20 dogs to get 2 points.

Posted by H.W. Moore on 07-26-2017 05:23 PM:

If 2 points was worth $500-$600 instead of $200-210 I've got a feeling more people would b interested in earning them..

Posted by Dogwhisper on 07-26-2017 05:55 PM:

10 dogs to earn 1 pt...
Go back to when this program 1st. started , points were worth earning, today their not worth it.
We don't need no fee increases ....UKC needs to revamp the point value based on the average local hunt attendance.
Hunts don't draw 20+ dogs anymore....dahhhh!
The program out of step with reality!

Posted by Allen / UKC on 07-26-2017 07:16 PM:

Re: Increasing Performance point payouts

quote:
Originally posted by H.W. Moore
Suggestions to make a $100 point a $300 with very minor increases. Helping hunters who are entering the hunts and increasing interest for some who aren't. Mostly bringing attendance up and helping the local clubs out.
1.$10-20 increase to performance register one.
2.$10-20 increase to nominate a litter.
3.$20-30 fee to nominate a dam before breeding.
4.$25-50 increase in Performance sire fee.
5. Don't waste paper, envelopes, postage or man hours mailing checks under $50
6. Add a $1 fee per dog entered at a hunt to be placed directly in the performance fund.
Any 3 of these suggestions will more than double the fund, all will more than triple it.
This program has become stagnant and losing interest rapidly.

H.W. Moore and all,
While I've read several posts in this thread, I've not read a whole lot nor responded for several reasons, which is totally irrelevant. I don't think I know you personally but you seem to be a pretty intelligent man based on your ideas and comments. That goes for others who commented as well.

I think most would agree that the best ideas are the result of the individual having a good solid basis to work from. I say this because, until now, we have not publicly provided certain actual information as it pertains to the Performance Program. Information that I think might change some ideas and perspectives when it comes to considering the best ideas on how to improve the program.

#1. I see remarks suggesting that UKC simply doesn't care; be it there customers, clubs, the Performance Program or anything else. That couldn't be further from the truth! Who wouldn't want to have THE BEST programs possible for their customers? If not, the result should be plain and simple...... You're fired!

Regardless, I'm going to start a new thread for discussion with regards to ideas on how to improve on the Performance Program. Probably better than burying that information within this thread and see what good ideas might come of it. We'll be interested in considering any idea that would improve the program. In that thread I'll disclose some of the afore mentioned information that might be helpful.

Thanks.

Posted by JiM on 07-26-2017 07:47 PM:

After you fix the PRP program, maybe you could fix the time stamps on these posts. I'm sitting here at 2:45 PM, 7-26-2017 and your post above shows your post time at 7:16 PM 7-26-2017. Unless this is StarTrek, I don't see how that is possible.

Posted by joey on 07-26-2017 07:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
10 dogs to earn 1 pt...
Go back to when this program 1st. started , points were worth earning, today their not worth it.
We don't need no fee increases ....UKC needs to revamp the point value based on the average local hunt attendance.
Hunts don't draw 20+ dogs anymore....dahhhh!
The program out of step with reality!

Wasn't 20 dogs then either. The one and only reason the first few years paid so well was because very few were eligible to earn points. You see everyone was getting started and paying in, but the first couple of years there were only a couple of young dogs winning. Lots of people paying in and very few old enough to win isn't going to happen again.

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 07-26-2017 08:16 PM:

JiM, I think the time stamps are set from each individuals Control Panel (CP). Then under edit options you can select your time zone. But yours is right so, I don't need to tell you. LOL

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Posted by JiM on 07-26-2017 08:19 PM:

The very first year, there was no cap on the maximum number of points you could win at a single event. Duke Prioux won the reg hunt at AO that year and collected a huge number of points from that hunt. That, coupled with the high point values those first years, gave him a check for something like 20 grand. Next year, they had the cap put on. Anyone remember that?

Posted by Allen / UKC on 07-26-2017 08:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
After you fix the PRP program, maybe you could fix the time stamps on these posts. I'm sitting here at 2:45 PM, 7-26-2017 and your post above shows your post time at 7:16 PM 7-26-2017. Unless this is StarTrek, I don't see how that is possible.

Must be the setting on your end. It shows 2:16 on my end.

Posted by JiM on 07-26-2017 09:09 PM:

Ok. Anyone know where I go to fix it?

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 07-26-2017 09:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
The very first year, there was no cap on the maximum number of points you could win at a single event. Duke Prioux won the reg hunt at AO that year and collected a huge number of points from that hunt. That, coupled with the high point values those first years, gave him a check for something like 20 grand. Next year, they had the cap put on. Anyone remember that?

I do. Point value that first year was over a grand

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 07-26-2017 09:55 PM:

I remember it. I drew out with him that night. I couldn't understand why he was hunting a dog at AO but found out why later.

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