UKC Forums - Black and Tan Bones

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-- Black and Tan Bones (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928473456)

Posted by Deon Collins on 02-07-2017 08:28 PM:

Somewhat Agree

The associations can only make recommendations... I just wish that the systems goal as a whole was to produce a better Coon Hound... if everyonee to include associations and UKC would all make decisions base on the improvement of Coon Dogs things would be a lot better but as with anything money and politics get involved... None of this is going to stop me from producing the dog I want to hunt... Papers are just that.... Paper.. we are having hunts now locally where you can hunt anything and it is really fun...

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 02-07-2017 10:08 PM:

Here's a good example of a dog from 2 PR bred redbones. I personally think he looks cool. i'd love to have one that looks like it.

[/URL]

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-07-2017 10:38 PM:

I once had a litter about 25 yrs ago that had 2 that looked just like that, 2 black and tans and 2 solid red.

Posted by Deon Collins on 02-07-2017 10:52 PM:

Now that's a well built dog

Jack that is a good lookin dog... I'll put my order in now for one as well... lol....

Posted by Wade Kuhns on 02-08-2017 01:32 AM:

I will say this about that big red and white hound,he is out of two grntch PR redbones that were both very consistant winners in competition and night after night they were both the kind of coondogs that you took hunting when you absolutely wanted to shoot a coon.He is registered xbred,and he has earned a spot in my kennel,dogs like him don't come around everyday in any breed.I'm just going to enjoy him for what he is .I really like this dog .

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-08-2017 02:06 AM:

I'm sorry...I must have made a wrong turn...I thought this was the Redbone page....but clearly with so many professing their love and admiration for off colored dogs I must have clicked on something I shouldn't have....so I will just back on out of here ......

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Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
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as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by Deon Collins on 02-08-2017 02:22 AM:

?????

No one loves their Redbones more than me but when nature makes a decision for me I don't go against it I work with it... I've heard a lot of the old timers talk about this and they just culled them and moved on... today we have DNA... use to everyone just assumed those old timers were mixing breeds today it can be proven we aren't... I'm all for a breed standard but don't let a thing like color be the deciding factor for a coon dog there is a word for that "Show Dogs" and we have enough of those already... I just want that B&T bone to be view fairly for what it is.. if you take that pup and breed him back to a redbone you will get red pups that meet the breed standard and are 100% redbone by their pedigree so how can they not be Redbones?

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 02-08-2017 02:32 AM:

WOW

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-08-2017 03:18 AM:

Re: ?????

quote:
Originally posted by Deon Collins
No one loves their Redbones more than me but when nature makes a decision for me I don't go against it I work with it... I've heard a lot of the old timers talk about this and they just culled them and moved on... today we have DNA... use to everyone just assumed those old timers were mixing breeds today it can be proven we aren't... I'm all for a breed standard but don't let a thing like color be the deciding factor for a coon dog there is a word for that "Show Dogs" and we have enough of those already... I just want that B&T bone to be view fairly for what it is.. if you take that pup and breed him back to a redbone you will get red pups that meet the breed standard and are 100% redbone by their pedigree so how can they not be Redbones?

I'm not picking sides or giving an opinion either way on this subject.
But I will say this...ukc considers a pure bred purple ribbon bred redbone that is out of registered redbones for 3 generations...that's all.
We all know that dogs that are 5, 6, 7 or more generations of purple ribbon bred redbones still throw off colored dogs today. That color didn't come from the redbones in their family tree...it came from the result of a cross breed and that particular gene is still in that dna and will surface from time to time.
While a lot of you seem to be worried about that off color gene.... I worry more about the weak genes from weak dogs who never should have been bred many generations back...because those genes show up way more often than off color genes in the form of complete duds that should be culled and very low quality, mediocre ability in a high percentage of the litters this breed produces every year. Those are holding us back way more than a few off colored pups here and there. I sometimes wonder if a lot of redbone folks just think the only requirement for being a breeder is having to dogs each with a set of papers...
There are lots of standards that should be met by dogs before they are allowed to reproduce....the breed standard concerning looks and color is one that was decided on by redbone people...for the good of most other redbone people long ago. Had a color requirement not been set....redbones would probably not even be predominantly red today.
But what about the other characteristics of the standard that have to do with composition...or other desired traits?
What about performance? That's the most important one to me. I won't breed dogs that have not proven to me that they are above average...or in many cases in the top 10 or 20 percent of where I think redbones are in comparison to other top competition dogs. That's how you weed out the weak links that keep showing up in such a high percentage of redbone pups produced each year...but just like it took 75 to 100 years to get the color of redbones like it is today...so too will it take years and years to get the ability up to where it could be. It's even harder than color....because it's inside...not on the outside...and everybody has a different opinion about ability and where it might rank.
I wish we had an ability standard...like that a dog has to make Nite Champion or earn another title like htx before it can be shown on the bench or registered as a hunting redbone because many of the show breeders hurt the hunting side of the breed by not ensuring that hunting ability was maintained in the dogs they were producing...and now we are playing catch up to other breeds who didn't have to worry so much about looks and color in their breeds. Just my two cents

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-08-2017 03:45 AM:

Sounds like some people need to do their homework. Breed Standards pre-date bench shows by a long shot, so to say that the bench show people are to blame for how the standards dictate what is considered a Redbone and what is not, isent nessecarily accurate.

Yes I agree, there are plenty of people breeding for show purposes, but they do not dicatate how the standards were written originally or now. The Association and UKC control our standards WE breed by and I would say that the influence of those people that are breeding strictly for the show ring is minute.

Also, form follows function, so standards are written for us breeders, to maintain a guideline so that we can produce the most physically efficient dogs we need to do a particular job, treeing raccoons. It would be hard for a Bassett Hound to do the job of Classy Cali, Moonshine, Big Walnut Boone, or any other winning Redbone, from a physical standpoint. Color merely separates us from the rest, and makes our breed distinctive among the seas of White and Blue.

And for those who are wondering, the way the X-Bred program works with UKC right now, all off colored offspring produced by a 'PR' sire and dam are registered "X-Bred".

HOWEVER, those off colored offspring, produced by two "purebred" parents, CAN produce 'PR' offspring, so long as they meet the written standard set forth for that breed.

So yes, a Black & Tan Redbone pup can be registered... as an X-Bred, and it CAN produce "purebred" purple ribben offspring... Redbone Coonhounds.

Pretty neat huh?

I don't see what all the hubabaloo is about off colored pups. They happen in every breed, we aren't the only ones. If you get them, fine, register them as X-Bred. But don't get all butt hurt because it can't be registered as a REDbone.

At least UKC offers a leginament way for those pups to have a shot in the hunts now, no more inaccurate registrations or culling required.

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Posted by ibrobiinhood on 02-08-2017 04:58 AM:

Agree with your post Shane. And as a guy that had 3 off colored pups by PR registered parents can live with them being registered for x-bred I believe we should, as houndsmen pursue on changing the standard of getting rid of that non-hunting gene. If they can't tree/bay their own game cull them.

Posted by ibrobiinhood on 02-08-2017 05:02 AM:

By the way, Wade...I too like your hound. Like him but wouldn't show him IF he were registered Redbone. Like any other disqualifying fault. I have a female with web feet worse then a duck. I clasify her the same as your male. Cept I like solid red...still would breed to your male though, I know his breeder breeds for a COON dog and not just a looker.

Posted by ibrobiinhood on 02-08-2017 05:06 AM:

Corey, I am very pleased with UKC coming forth with the x-breed program. They are stepping up to the plate for the need of man trying to dictate to nature how things should be.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-08-2017 05:07 AM:

One has nothing to do with the other....I know how long breed standards have been established. When I say the bench show breeders did some damage to hunt ability...alot of that happened starting in the 80s and continues to this day. There was a split somewhere in the 80's from people showing their hunting dogs but still breeding for hunting dogs that they could show...to people who didn't hunt at all and didn't even care about hunting ability when they made crosses. Slowly over the last 30 or so years a new group of breeders emerged...ones who breed only for confirmation and show quality and they could care less if those dogs can tree a coon...that's a fact. Many of these pups find their way to people who want to make them a hunting dog...but they just don't have what it takes...so they decide they will breed it to a stud who is a hunting dog so they can get some pups that may have some ability...and there in lies the reason we have so many dogs in the redbone breed with weak hunting traits that are hard to weed out later. I been around a little longer than you Corey...I saw it in living color...in real time as it was happening. Maybe the way I said it in my first post wasn't clear. I don't think the breed standard on color caused people to just breed for show ability...I think it was the fact that shows got bigger...drew more of the other family members into being part of the events besides the Nite hunt...and gradually the trophies and other prizes started to gain in value and made it worth it to people to really get serious about it.
I am the same way about Nite hunt ability...and I could care less how mine looks on the bench...that is an afterthought when I plan a cross...I'm look almost totally at hunt ability. My point is...in this breed ...there are show people who only look at show ability and could care less about hunt ability...and all too often...the offspring from both types of dogs get mixed and then the offspring lack in traits desired one way or the other. Very seldom do you get a perfect balance where they have great ability to win hunts and big shows. It happens...but it's kind of rare.

Posted by ibrobiinhood on 02-08-2017 05:17 AM:

Right Shane. And how many people keep chasing their tails over the PERFECT looking REDbone puppy from a litter whose strain has had all the hunt desire bred out of it. Ohhhh it was there in the beginning but like the off-colored is a recessive gene the no hunt desire has become a dominate gene. I didn't breed to get B&T no more then Wade bred to get his nice looking Redbone. Like him and others we bred hard hunting, tree dogs to produce the same. Again, IF anyone thinks I'm butt-hurt over by non-standard Redbones being x-bred, I'm not. The butt-hurt is there is more characteristics hurting our breed then just the color and it too pre-dates UKC...that is the ability/desire to hunt. Lucky we still have breeders that sets this STANDARD in their breeding program.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-08-2017 05:48 AM:

The trouble with the breed standards is some can be seen and some can't. That leave the door open for breeders to pick and choose which are most desirable to them for their purposes. Some people breed strictly for color and confirmation to win shows...and others breed strictly for hunt ability while trying to stay predominantly red in color...but not caring much about other physical traits as long as the hunt ability is there. These past practices with no real strict adherence to or enforcement of the standards as a complete package in each dog whether a show or hunt dog has led to a pretty noticeable split in the redbone breed and others where you see lines that are either show or hunt dogs...but rarely big winners in both with the same dog. I admit...I am as guilty as the next guy for placing way more priority on hunt ability than show ability...but most others are the same if they are serious competitors in either branch of competition. There really should be two separate classes of redbones...because the best of the best from either group are seldom ever bred to the best of the best from the other group. I would never breed one of my competition hunt bred females to a big winning show dog from generations of the same with little or no proven competition hunt winning ancestors. There is a reason for that...and you do not see the people who are most serious about winning top level shows breeding those dogs to big hunt winners either. They may be the same breed...but there was a separation years ago that is becoming more and more defined. In another decade or two...the predominantly red color my be the only thing these two different types of redbones share...

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-08-2017 06:05 AM:

Shane

I wasent responding to any of your posts directly... I was responding to the topic of the thread. Sorry if it appeared that way. I think everyone would agree you've been around longer then I have

I agreed with a lot of the stuff you said anyway lol

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Posted by jdgher on 02-08-2017 06:39 AM:

Having the X-Bred category sure is a good thing.

I was glad to see UKC start the X-Bred category. After reading this thread, I'm even more glad. It seems to solve a lot of problems.
Wade hold your head high and kick butt with that fine looking X-Bred hound. That's a cool looking hound.
Just my thoughts. Now with DNA and the X-bred category, I wonder, will the "Off color" pups (Throw backs) eventually stop showing up in the Redbone breed? I wonder how many generations or years it will take, my guess is 30+ years, if everyone is honest. Honesty is still at play you know.
I've often wondered if the black gene is more common in the real dark Red pups? My experience, the new born nearly black pups are the ones that end up being the darkest Red pups. So if that's the case the black gene is here to stay.

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Posted by ibrobiinhood on 02-08-2017 01:20 PM:

Darrin, you asked with the x-breed going on if the off color will fade out. Have you've been to the doctor and they've asked you your FAMILY's medical history. It is because it is in your genes, even way back. Same with our hounds, it is in the genes. We can not control nature no matter what our desires are.

Cory, I don't know when the color "standard" of our breed came about. Without investigating, let me ask this....do you know of any breed that is registered that doesn't have a standard. Let's look alittle further. Do you know of any breed that isn't shown? See, the way I see things is our roots focus wasn't so much on looks as it is today but rather the hunting aspect. No matter what breed of dogs was used to make our modern day Redbone. As Shane has pointed to and as a couple of us others, we are happy with UKC decision on x-bred. Can those that live the life show dogs only live with showing against those other dogs outside the COON hound world? I'm not talking the dual champion class. I'm talking about the ones that breed just for looks. This is where my desire lies in the changes being made.

Posted by Deon Collins on 02-08-2017 01:36 PM:

Hope Your Right Corey

I 100% agree with the The above as far as the focus being brought back to hunting stock... where you are trying to start your own line of hunting dogs you start with the foundation having all the hunting traits you want and once you are consistently producing a pup with the hunting traits you want then you can start working on looks.. as long as they all meet the standard... way too many Redbones today have no hunt in them...

Corey I really hope your right about the X-Breed being able to produce a PR ... I specifically asked UKC and was told no.. The post I made above was copied directly off the UKC site... Basically I was told if I took my xbreed pup out of two PR Redbones and breed it back to a pr redbone the pups would be 50%.. and they must be 80% to even be registered as Redbones let alone PR.. if this is wrong please let me know.. But this is what UKC told me verbally over the phone.. and seems to be supported in writing on their site...I hope I am wrong and you are right..

Oh and by the way I have been around hounds for a few days my dad raised and trained Pun Jab who Royal Goodaker Produced.. I hunt with his Great Grandson now..

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-08-2017 02:07 PM:

Some people breed, raise, buy and show Redbones. Other people breed, raise, buy and hunt Redbones. I don't understand why the people that hunt Redbones are complaining about the people that show their Redbones. I have never heard one of the show people complain about the hunt people breeding and raising a bunch of ugly Redbones. And I have seen some ugly ugly Redbones being bred.
Now I wonder why that is?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-08-2017 02:14 PM:

And another thing.... How in the world could a true Redbone man say that he doesn't care what color a dog is? I can't believe that a true Redbone man would say that they think that a white dog with red spots is good looking and that they would love to have one. It is no wonder that this discussion has gone on so long. But I guess that there are a bunch of guys who say that they are Redbone people but think that it is all right to breed a Redbone to a walker and call the pups Redbones.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-08-2017 02:52 PM:

Anyone that has been around Redbones for a long time should know that when the breed standards were set there weren't "show people". There were only hunters that showed their dogs. The reason that Redbones didn't evolve into dogs that went a mile to get treed all by themselves is because that isn't what the Redbone hunters wanted. It had nothing to do with show people or color. And it was the hunters that wanted a good looking solid red hound. The show dog people came along and picked Redbones to show because the hunters had developed such good looking dogs.

Posted by Deon Collins on 02-08-2017 03:22 PM:

Richard

I have never crossed anything with a Redbone but I appreciate a good looking dog no matter what the breeding is.... When Im at a hunt and its over and there was someone there that had a good whatever I shake his hand and tell him he has a good hound.. It's just sportsmanship to me.....
Now for the old timers... My dad is one... He said they never had a problem with dogs standing at your feet by themselves... We as a redbone breed do have that problem today.... Im not saying they all should go a mile but you shouldn't have to walk them over the track either or beat them to make them hunt... It is a breeding problem.. Anyone that doesn't believe this then bring me a female pup and guarantee me at 8-9 months old it will be a no reverse dog... I rest my case....

Oh and unlike others I will tell it like it is even if it belongs to me... The B&T Bone that I had came out of the cross with CAT... You know Richard the one you just breed Boone to... Look out you could have gotten one or one that will throw one... Now why did you breed to Cat could it have been for Go Power??? Why not just pick a show dog... I rest my case...

Oh and the old timers I speak with a lot... have told me multiple times that everyone showed up at the hunt to do just that... Hunt... The show was just a side activity like a treeing contest.. Now a days when I go to a hunt you will see people coming strictly to show their dogs.. There is no intention for them to hunt... Again I have no problem with enthusiast that want to do this but they have their own platform for this it is called DOG SHOWS... The Hunting program should be to foster hunting dogs... When I go to a hunt most of them are at small clubs I will show my dog but it's just simply to support the club... I would never show a dog of any breed that can't tree a coon.. What is the point for doing that at a hunting club...

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-08-2017 04:08 PM:

Deon

I was fortunate enough to be involved with helping put the X-Bred program together when I worked at UKC. So I know a lot about it.

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