UKC Forums - Naturals

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-26-2016 01:57 AM:

Re: done all that

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
Richard, haven't you ever had one that all you had to do was take it hunting and it did the rest. It went out without being encouraged, it struck a track and opened on it because it couldn't help but do it, it started checking trees when it lost the track, it treed on the wood because it smelled where a coon had went up and it kept doing it night after night with only a few minor set backs that work themselves out with more trips to the woods. If you haven't had one like that I hope you get one. They don't come along every day but they are not a myth . I have had people tell me that all they had to do was take a pup hunting and it did the rest. I think many people think they are training a dog and sometimes the dog is doing most the training itself the people just take the credit for it.
A coon dog loves to run a coon and they love to get the prize for dong so. When they make mistakes and don't get the prize they learn to search harder and use their nose and brains. We just think it's all us. It's them doing what their bred to do. I believe a true natural needs nothing more than a real good pat on the head and some praise for doing a job right and a regular trip to the woods. Scold em on off game and give them time to get treed on the ruff tracks. They can pretty much train themselves after that..

Im not disagreeing with you. I would say most of my "training" is in the form of correction. I let the natural ability come out on its own and then just try to keep the dog between the lines. The extent of my actual encouragement training is very little and usually in its first month or two and only if it doesnt start showing me something on its own the first few times out.
I think many people just get impatient and think there is a time limit and if your pup isnt treeing by 8 months...that it will never amount to anything.
Somebody ask Doc Hallada at what age Cali started since she seems to be on everyones tongue these days...the answer might surprise some...
How good a dog ends up being has nothing to do with how old it was when it started....imo

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by mmarshall on 02-26-2016 01:48 PM:

Re: done all that

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
[B]Richard, haven't you ever had one that all you had to do was take it hunting and it did the rest. It went out without being encouraged, it struck a track and opened on it because it couldn't help but do it, it started checking trees when it lost the track, it treed on the wood because it smelled where a coon had went up and it kept doing it night after night with only a few minor set backs that work themselves out with more trips to the woods. /B]

That is what I feel we should be breeding for you hunt them you don't train them its natural a dog can only pass on natural ability not trained ability

__________________
mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

Posted by Adam Wingler on 02-26-2016 02:16 PM:

Natural or not, so can you (anyone commenting here with success) think like dog?

That's the big question, right? Hindsight is so easy after something goes wrong, the pup has moved on somewhere else, you think back on why the dog or you failed, but by then it's too late, right? Learning from mistakes is imprinted into my brain so much quicker, but I prefer to learn from someone else's mistakes.

I hear, read and see so many folks making big "training" errors (I'm just as guilty), yet they are repeated over and over and over. We've hit on some already, but another great example is shock collars. More often than not when I've bought a dog, started or finished, I find out they are collar smart. Meaning at some point somebody slapped that magic zapper around their neck, with no forward thought, and went to zapping. But now when a collar is put on said hound they freeze up or wet themselves standing still. They had been permanently altered because somebody didn't think like a dog. Natural or not, the path that hound was on was changed. Well, some say naturals don't need a shock, but maybe you get my point.

Anyhow, I'm sidetracking. Just know I have appreciated this thread and all that have put their 2 cents in, maybe I can avoid something I haven't encountered yet and learn about something I've never had...and that's something I'd call natural.

Posted by mmarshall on 02-26-2016 05:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Wingler
Natural or not, so can you (anyone commenting here with success) think like dog?

That's the big question, right? Hindsight is so easy after something goes wrong, the pup has moved on somewhere else, you think back on why the dog or you failed, but by then it's too late, right? Learning from mistakes is imprinted into my brain so much quicker, but I prefer to learn from someone else's mistakes.

I hear, read and see so many folks making big "training" errors (I'm just as guilty), yet they are repeated over and over and over. We've hit on some already, but another great example is shock collars. More often than not when I've bought a dog, started or finished, I find out they are collar smart. Meaning at some point somebody slapped that magic zapper around their neck, with no forward thought, and went to zapping. But now when a collar is put on said hound they freeze up or wet themselves standing still. They had been permanently altered because somebody didn't think like a dog. Natural or not, the path that hound was on was changed. Well, some say naturals don't need a shock, but maybe you get my point.

Anyhow, I'm sidetracking. Just know I have appreciated this thread and all that have put their 2 cents in, maybe I can avoid something I haven't encountered yet and learn about something I've never had...and that's something I'd call natural.

I hunted a dog for a guy once he said old Dixie was 100 % straight as long she had a shock color on I just made a fake shock color in the garage for Her she was straight while I had her lol

Posted by Adam Wingler on 02-26-2016 06:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
I hunted a dog for a guy once he said old Dixie was 100 % straight as long she had a shock color on I just made a fake shock color in the garage for Her she was straight while I had her lol

Ha, I've never had a collar smart dog work in my favor, good point. But you'd maybe been better off if she was broke a different way, who knows, maybe she was extra hard headed.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-26-2016 08:10 PM:

I just look at whats best for the breed.
Pups with a lot of natural ability who dont have to be "trained" or pressured into treeing are more likely to produce offspring the same way.
Many people who buy a started dog or even a finished dog or even breeding to a stud cannot be sure if they are getting one that was a natural or one that was more of a man made dog that didnt show much natural ability at a young age. Some guys wont care....but any serious breeder should always have natural ability at the top of his or her list...imo

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-27-2016 04:45 PM:

Re: Re: done all that

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
That is what I feel we should be breeding for you hunt them you don't train them its natural a dog can only pass on natural ability not trained ability

In a perfect world, yes. You breed for it but you don't always get it. But I must say that you see early starting a lot more now than you used to. I just haven't been convinced that it is "natural" vs "maturing quicker". But then, I don't have the experience with these "naturals" that y'all have. Maybe if I keep at it, I will come around. I guess that I am just hardheaded.

Posted by sox12 on 02-27-2016 07:46 PM:

maybe if I would maturing quicker I might be able to train some dogs,but on the other hand it might be to late for me to be a natural trainer.but I am not in a perfect world

George

Posted by mmarshall on 02-27-2016 08:31 PM:

Re: Re: Re: done all that

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
In a perfect world, yes. You breed for it but you don't always get it. But I must say that you see early starting a lot more now than you used to. I just haven't been convinced that it is "natural" vs "maturing quicker". But then, I don't have the experience with these "naturals" that y'all have. Maybe if I keep at it, I will come around. I guess that I am just hardheaded.

Not trying to change any ones method do what you prefer but I have learned very few things come easy but this is one that can and does but you got to be willing to put faith in the pups breeding and not try and take short cuts or you will never injoy the benefits of a natural in future generations you can't just say they are or your guessing or worst yet your lying to your self you have to prove it
Hope you get another natural Richard I don't know about you but I like less working so I can do more hunting 👍

Posted by RedScorpion on 02-28-2016 12:01 AM:

I have a question in my mind if we are all talking about the same thing when we use the word naturals. I have had dogs that the first time they smelled up a tree they wimpered, whined, and started barking. These same dogs didn't open on track and a couple didn't even go with an old dog I was using to train them with. Are these dogs naturals? I have had others that would naturally go hunting with the old dog, may even open on track and tree a little the first or second night out. But if you take them by themselves, they wouldn't really go hunting or be able to tree a coon by themselves. Are these dogs naturals. Finally I was really lucky to have one dog that saw his first coon on the first drop on the first night out. On the second drop of the first night he shot out of there like he was on fire, struck first, and treed ahead of the old dog. On the second night, I took him by himself and he treed a coon. People will find it it hard to believe but I only saw him on that tree all night until I had to go get him. He was 11 months old and got hit by a car a year later. I never had him in a hunt. I know he was a natural.

__________________
Home of the Red Solo Cup

Posted by mmarshall on 02-28-2016 03:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by RedScorpion
I have a question in my mind if we are all talking about the same thing when we use the word naturals. I have had dogs that the first time they smelled up a tree they wimpered, whined, and started barking. These same dogs didn't open on track and a couple didn't even go with an old dog I was using to train them with. Are these dogs naturals? I have had others that would naturally go hunting with the old dog, may even open on track and tree a little the first or second night out. But if you take them by themselves, they wouldn't really go hunting or be able to tree a coon by themselves. Are these dogs naturals. Finally I was really lucky to have one dog that saw his first coon on the first drop on the first night out. On the second drop of the first night he shot out of there like he was on fire, struck first, and treed ahead of the old dog. On the second night, I took him by himself and he treed a coon. People will find it it hard to believe but I only saw him on that tree all night until I had to go get him. He was 11 months old and got hit by a car a year later. I never had him in a hunt. I know he was a natural.

If they can find track and tree there own coon in 5or6 nights with no training natural in my book
If they do that under a year old natural early starter in my book jmo
hope that helps

Posted by Sawblade on 02-28-2016 12:22 PM:

instinct

Things I look for to tell me I'm working with a dog that had natural ability and instinctive traits.
1.A pup that WANTS to go. I always take a pup with an older dog the first time out and I want to see that pup want to follow the old dog. If that pup is gone the entire time and at least keeping up without fear of getting lost ,I know I got something I can work with. Normal time frame is 5 to 9 months old for this.
2. Pick the right night. That pup needs to find a coon track to run, I always try to increase those odds by scouting a good spot and making sure there is sign and the coon are there. Sweet corn in the summer , cherries and acorns in the fall, Den trees and wet springs from coon breeding season until may. couple nights out in these areas and a pup with natural instincts will show you what your looking for. If your in thin coon and that isn't possible ,You should use box trapped coon and let them loose .

I want everyone to understand that I have tried everything a hunter can do to get some pups to start . Caged coon, box traps , feeder buckets, rope bags and on and on. But when I see a natural start on it's first trip out I know I won't have to go thru all that, just keep taking them to the woods. All the ones that have started that way have turned into above average dogs. Winners

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Posted by Crazy Luke on 02-28-2016 01:19 PM:

Dang it Kelly

Dang It Kelly. You keep giving away all the secrets and you won't have a dog left on the place to hunt.

Posted by mmarshall on 02-28-2016 02:10 PM:

Re: Dang it Kelly

quote:
Originally posted by Crazy Luke
Dang It Kelly. You keep giving away all the secrets and you won't have a dog left on the place to hunt.

Yep he just gave away that last key natural ingredient for that secret family recipe of coon dog soup 😛

Posted by sox12 on 02-28-2016 02:56 PM:

sometimes people trys to start a pup to young,when they act like they are not mature enough to go,ill throw a old hide out and let the pups play with it all they want at a young age.

George

Posted by mmarshall on 03-02-2016 05:22 PM:

Re: natural

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
A natural will make ALMOST any training method a success. and Breeding dogs that have strong natural ability is the best cull method there is. Just something to think about.

I can only think of one method that can be used to prove out if it's the pups breeding 100%

Posted by Sawblade on 03-03-2016 01:38 PM:

yea, I bet

I bet you a can guess what is.
Let's think this very simple idea thru. If we as breeders are making any kind of progress towards breeding dogs that can win against competition and can tree real live coons without making many or any mistakes. Than the very best way to judge the improvement of these "in the blood traits" would be to evaluate the dog prior to any human interference or training. That makes sense to me. Feed a pup well , keep them healthy let them be pups and look for signs they have those traits. Look for those traits before you start to train the pup. I have heard many talk about how they start a pup first by just letting it run loose around the farm. That's not training that should be just normal development. They explore ,they learn on their own. they find a scent to follow they follow it. You only give them the chance to show what traits they already have. Best way I know to judge weather or not the bloodline is producing natural ability.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-03-2016 02:52 PM:

Y'all are right. If you are just breeding for natural early starting ability then that is the best way. But what if some of that natural ability comes out later. I wonder if some pups have that natural ability deep down inside them and it doesn't come out until they mature a little later. Maybe y'all are just breeding for pups that mature early?

Posted by Sawblade on 03-03-2016 03:48 PM:

Early starters

I never mentioned anything about how quick a dog finishes out. I've seen some finish pretty late. I would have to say that most true naturals show the instinctive traits fairly early and are very easy to start. That's just one of those traits that comes thru. If they start real late and show no instinctive signs, is that a trait we want more of or less of ? Given that an early starting pup with plenty of natural instinct has at least the same chance ,I would say much greater chance to finish out into a true top hound . Why would a breeder want to build on a trait that could potentially slow down the learning curve or loose what we all love to see , like an early starting pup with huge amounts of natural instinct. I'm pretty sure that is what most every one wants when they buy a pup .The only way I know to get more of them is to breed dogs that have those traits with other similar dogs. Maybe I have been missing something. hmm

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-03-2016 06:24 PM:

I have seen no indication that pups that start early turn out to be better competition dogs in the end.
But....as a breeder...I want to see that natural ability showing at a young age...preferrably when they are still young enough to run loose or the first few times I have them out in the woods at 6-8 mo. This is because I feel like the earlier they show those signs...the easier it will be for people to start these pups. Having said that....I never give up on one before about a year and a half of age that has shown at least some signs of natural ability when young...even if it doesnt start to put it together until its 12-16 mo old.
Would I use a late starter in my program? Probably not unless the rest of the litter was early starting and most of them including the late starter turned out to be above average in ability...then I might consider it.
Today the breed is getting much better about producing pups that start earlier...but with alot of people using un natural methods to start them with peer pressure, props and over encouragement...Im not sure just how much of what is being seen is natural ability.
Some may not care or think it matters how a pup starts tracking and treeing...but I really think it does...especially to a breeder who wants to produce early starting naturals....and it should to anyone who wants to buy a pup and start it themselves in a more natural fashion.
Let me say that another way...
Unless you give a pup a chance to show you it is doing things naturally....instead of working it with a pack of dogs on cage coons or drags from the time its 4 or 5 months old...you can never know if it would have started naturally on its own or if you "taught" it to mimic the other dogs and what they are doing.
Pups, and even old dogs can be "taught" to tree....but that doesnt mean that those same dogs can go out into a strange woods...hunt out far enough to find a track, use only their nose to trail it and then accuratly locate the right tree and tree on it till you get there with no help from the handler or another dog.
One looks good in pictures....but the other one is a real live wild coon treeing dog...and thats what it takes to win in competition and to satisfy most coon hunters.
To me the term "started" gets thrown around too loosely these days. It seems when most say they can start a dog or that they have a started dog they mean the dog will tree. Thats fine if they mean the dog has and will tree a wild raccoon by itself...but most mean it will tree a drag or a cage coon.
When I say a dog is started...I mean it has trailed and treed a live coon by itself ....not in a cage or one that has been led to a tree. I will broaden my use of the term to include those who will tree a raccoon that has realeased and actually runs more than 50-100 yards before going up a tree and then is successfully tracked and treed at night where the coon has climbed up high enough that the pup cannot see it so there can be no doubt that it is treeing by scent alone.
I say this because in situations like this the circumstances are very similar to running across a hot track in the wild and i have never seen a dog that could tree a release coon that could not tree a hot easy coon it comes across in the wild.
For me...natural ability is one of if not the most important things from the perspective of our breeding program...so its very important to me that I see that pup exhibit some natural ability before anyone puts any real influence on the pup with other training methods.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-10-2016 06:02 PM:

I have had quite a few people discuss this thread with me and most said it really opened their eyes to a lot of things that people do when it comes to starting pups. They said the main takaway from it was that before they read all of the posts by many many different people...they were under the influence that anything and everything one could do to make a pup tree was a good thing.
But,
Almost everyone of these people said that after reading the entire thread...they have come to realize that isnt the case...and they are going to try to be more careful and targeted about how they start their pups from now on.
Thats a smart thing in my opinion and one that will help this breed turn out more natural real live wild raccoon treeing winners in the future.
There is a lot of good info here from many different sources and most point to a common theme...and thats what makes this a great thread.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-10-2016 06:02 PM:

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-10-2016 06:17 PM:

See, that is what happens when we don't all "just get along". A lot of eyes get opened. It is a great thing as long as nobody's eyes get blacked.

Posted by INDIANA-DAN on 03-10-2016 06:25 PM:

I have to chime in to support what Outlaw just posted. I have read this entire thread at least 4 or 5 times and that is exactly what I took away from it. I have a pup and I want him to turn into a great coondog, but the end, for me, will never justify the means if I am coaxing him (or any other future pup) to do anything earlier that what he/they are ready for. I made that mistake ( I see now) with my previous hound. I did not let him have the opportunity to work things out on his own and inadvertently taught him a few bad habits that spoiled him. I am not overstating it when I say that this thread really changed my thought process from here on out. I want a good future with my hound and the ones to come, and I thank everyone for their contribution in this thread. Much appreciated.

Posted by ahallada on 03-11-2016 05:55 AM:

Re: naturals

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
There seem to be a lot of talk about how a person should train a natural. I'm of the opinion that naturals really don't need much training mostly they need a chance. It may be hard for some to accept but some dogs have such natural ability I'm not sure it's possible to ruin one with any form of training that has proved to work at least some times.

A long time ago I had a young dog that seemed to be a natural. One of the very first coon that dog treed we decided we should shake out and let that pup get it. That's the way we did it back then. My buddy climbed up and I waited with a club and the young dog. When the coon hit the ground it was bigger than we expected and more than the young dog could handle. The pup was giving it all it had but needed some help. I got ready with the club and when the pup backed up I swung as hard as I could. At the same time the pup lunged back in and I hit her square across the skull, she hit the ground screaming and ran off. I figured she was about to die and started looking for her. It took about 20 seconds and the coon figured it was time to run and next thing I knew the pup was on it again ,treeing on a small sapling that the coon had climbed. I wouldn't recommend this training method but that pup made GrNiteCh. I couldn't beat the natural ability out of her with a club. Just something to think on. By the way it's a true story and I got witnesses to the entire ordeal. Sawblade dogs got hard heads !!

Great story Kelly and so true. Unless you've actually had a natural, none of this makes much sense. When I first started in coonhunting it was a common training method to stick a pup in a barrel with a coon and roll the barrel down the hill. If the pup had what it took, it would go on to hate coon and be a coon dog. There was no way I was going to subject my first female pup to that barbaric method of training. I kept searching for different methods and read Millers Training Manuals 1 & 2 and tried a few of those. They actually worked and got me a good start. Not long after that I met a couple of the smartest houndsmen I've ever known, John Adametz and his dad Jim Adametz.

These guys had years of knowledge and Jim was one of the pioneers of the Bluetick breed. Nothing gets you to where you want to go faster than having good mentors. They hunted every breed of hound on about every species of animal so they understood the differences between a good bear dog vs a good coon dog and a cold nose tracker vs a medium nose or hot nose dog. When a dog opened they knew what the dog was doing, what it was running, and what kind of track it was. It was like a young stock investor hanging out with Warren Buffet. I wasn't the only student of theirs, and a few of my friends went on to win some of the biggest hunts in the country with their Blueticks.

I got to see a bunch of pups started and trained and helped train a few pups that went on to make a good name when I was 14-20 years of age. These guys never messed with cage coon at all and laughed at the method. In fact the only coon these pups ever saw were the ones that were treed naturally and hit the ground. They believed that a natural coondog shouldn't need unnatural training methods to develop. If they didn't tree coon by the time they were a year old they were either culled or used on pigs or bear. They had a dog by the name of Dual Gr.Ch. Adametz Little Bruiser that became my yardstick for coondogs and of over 50 years of breeding dogs he was their absolute best. He was a double Hammer 2 bred dog and is still one of the best I've ever walked behind.

Through them I became friends with Dave Dean and learned another level of techniques on breeding and training of coondogs. Interesting that Jim Adametz and Dave Dean both started with Blaksley bred Redbones. Dave later named his kennel after Blaksley's Northern Red Kennel, Northern Blue Kennels. He said Roy's breeding programs were a major influence on his future breeding program and he thought that Roy was years ahead of most in breeding techniques. In the 1970s and 1980s the hunts in the Midwest were dominated by Dave's Hammer bred dogs from Hammer 2-6., including Northern Blue Jet, Northern Blue Rebel, and Northern Blue Trapper lines. Some of the most natural pups I ever saw were from this breeding program. It wasn't uncommon to hear of a 3 month old pup treeing coon with other dogs from this line of dogs.

By the time I was 21 , I knew what I wanted in a Redbone after hunting with some of the best blue dogs of that era. They were smart, fast, independent, big mouthed , pressure tree dogs. I wanted all of that along with accuracy. The first Redbone I hunted with that had those traits was Gr.Nt.Ch. Smokey Mountain Brandy.

I was hunting a Gr.Nt.Ch. blue dog named Jessie at Autumn Oaks for a buddy of mine. She was a daughter of the Bruiser dog above and she was a decent enough dog to win it that year. We drew Alger and Brandy and we were in for a battle. We were leading the cast with a good score with 20 minutes left in the hunt. Jessie hit a track and drove it into a bean field and couldn't get her head off the ground. No other dog was open and with 10 minutes left I thought the hunt was mine, when Brandy opens up behind us about 200 yards on the edge of the woods and trees. Yep he had the meat and won National Gr.Nt.Ch.Redbone that year.

That was one smart dog and the closest thing I'd seen to the Bruiser dog. I didn't think he was super fast, but he had the big mouth and was a smart pressure tree dog. I'd say his daddy Gr.Nt.Ch. Smokey Mountain Dooley was the most underutilized stud dog of that era and a huge loss to this breed. Bill Wallock came real close to breeding TJ's mom Nt.Ch. Cane Spring Dawn to Dooley but decided to make an outcross on Lookout Luke instead. I can only think about what that would have done for our breeding program.

Bill was making his big move in the Redbone breed in about 1980 when he purchased Dawn from Max Hunter. She was heavily line bred Timber Chopper 3x and won US Redbone Days at 2 years of age. She had an unbelievable cold nose and one of the best strike dogs of that era, and was a good solid hard tree dog. After breeding her to Luke, he went back for a recommendation from Max Hunter. With the recommendation of Max, he bred her to a son of Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Chopper Jr. named Gr.Nt.Ch. Toussaint Red Talker and that is what created Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack.

Timber Jack was a natural early starter and placed at National Redbone Days at 9 months old. By the time he was 1 1/2 years old he had won 13 straight hunts. He was a really good dog at 2 and 3 but I wouldn't say he was a world beater. He actually never peaked until he was 5-6 years old when he was dominant on the big stage. That seemed to be a common peak age for the Timber Chopper bred dogs including Smokey Mountain Brandy, Toussaint Red Talker, Famous Amos, Burning Ben, and others. So I don't think it's true that dogs that start early peak early, or that dogs that start later peak later. These dogs were all early natural starters.

Now the Little Man dog was an early starter and peaked early and that is the way my Too the Max dog was too. He was as good as he was going to get at 2-3 years of age. Bill Wallock said he did become a better track dog later on however. So maybe for some of these dogs the dominant tracking abilities come out later in life. I know that TJ was a decent track dog at 2-3, and a great track dog at 5-6. At 7-8 years he drove tracks that most of my dogs and others couldn't smell. He also became rangier as he got older and it was not uncommon for him to go 2 miles when he was 9-10 years old. I've never hunted a dog with so much drive and heart right up until he died at 12 years old.

Contrary to what I heard by a prominent but misinformed Redbone Breeder at Autumn Oaks, TJ threw pups that were generally early starters, depending on the female he was bred to. Every big name dog he produced started early between 3 and 6 months of age including Max, Moon, Girl, Jack, Page, Rock, and Shock. These dogs were in competition hunts by the time they were 15 months old and they dominated at 2 years of age winning every major Redbone Hunt in 1992, including Opposite Sex and Overall Show Winners. No other stud has ever done that that I know of.

__________________
Dr. Allen Hallada (Doc Halladay)

Current:

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever
(Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Aftershock x Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Breanna)
2016 Finished to PKC Ch. in one week!

Dual Grand Champion CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Glissens JJ Jr. x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)
4 Generations of All Grand Nite Champions!
Timber Jack 3X and Timber Chopper over 30X
2019 Southern National Redbone Days Champion
2016 National Grand Nite Champion Redbone
2016 CHKC Redbone Days Champion
2016 PKC Super Stakes Reserve Champion
2016 CHKC Elite Shootout Winner - Texas
CHKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

Bodacious
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch.PKC. Gold Ch.CHKC CH. Outlaw G-Man x Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. Classy Cali)

Past:
Gr.Nt.Ch.Ch. Dawns Timber Jack
1988 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner
1989 UKC World Champion Redbone
1989 Purina Outstanding Redbone Coonhound
#2 Historic Redbone Sire/ Top 20 All Breeds
American Redbone Coonhound Assoc. Hall of Fame

Gr.Nt.Ch. Bussrow Bottom Brandy II
1991 American Redbone Days Champion
1992 AKC World Champion Redbone
1992 ACHA World Champion Redbone
1992 Wisconsin State Champion
1994 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex
Produced 2 Nt. Ch. , 1 Gr.Nt.Ch. out of 2 litters and two Redbone Days Winners

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. PKC Gold Ch. Layton's Classy Cali
2012 UKC World Champion Redbone and 7th Place Overall
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 UKC World Champion Redbone Female
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - Goodsprings, AL
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Series Race - 3rd Place Overall
2016 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - New Albany, MS
2016 PKC Texas State Race Winner
2016 PKC Redbone Breed Race Winner
PKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Coffman's Smokin Red Buck
2016 UKC World Hunt 5th Place and World Champion Redbone
2016 National Redbone Days Overall Winner

Gr.Nt.Ch. Reinhart's Central Page
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Brandy II)

Gr.Nt.Ch. Too the Maxx
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Jenkins Crying Katie)
1992 National Redbone Days Champion

Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Ambraw River Rock
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Hersh's Huntin Red Kate)
1992 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex

Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle
1986 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner

Nt.Ch. Timber Mace
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack X Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle)
Mother of Gr.Nt.Ch. Babb's Hazel

Nt. Ch. Timber Shock
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Jessie)

Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Squaw Mountain Goldie
(Direct Daughter of Gr.Nt.Ch.Smokey Mountain Brandy)
1990 Autumn Oaks Best of Show Winner
1988 Indiana State Champion

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