UKC Forums - But how many hunts did it take ????

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-- But how many hunts did it take ???? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928419335)

Posted by Jackson87 on 06-05-2015 07:10 AM:

Not trying to get your fired up.I haven't seen the buddy system.All the locals guys around here are pretty much straight up and call it like it is.Even if they do try to cheat ya the rules are the rules and a coontreer will win more than he loses.I know a man can make bad calls to.Thats part of the game.

Posted by walkerman75 on 06-05-2015 07:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jackson87
Not trying to get your fired up.I haven't seen the buddy system.All the locals guys around here are pretty much straight up and call it like it is.Even if they do try to cheat ya the rules are the rules and a coontreer will win more than he loses.I know a man can make bad calls to.Thats part of the game.

lol.. wont get me fired up.. i agree with you .. but there is still buddy system stuff out there.. an it is as simple as bending a rule for your buddy.. i personally like getting beat by a better dog. tells me i still need work with my dog.. i just lost a hunt this weekend.. we treed a big poplar an shook vine an coon looked.. all dogs treed there.. next tree. 2 dogs tree, mine dont.. smellin round area. get there an handled at tree. guys laugh. i say if coon there ill take my minus.. look up tree only 40 feet. with a vine.. can see tree real good. thin .. shake vine whole tree moves.. no coon.. tree got circled an i lost... i take my lumps.. .. so sometimes buddy system aint even buddys, but 2 guys that will take minus if they dont agree to circle..

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Posted by Jason Baldwin on 06-05-2015 07:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by walkerman75
lol.. wont get me fired up.. i agree with you .. but there is still buddy system stuff out there.. an it is as simple as bending a rule for your buddy.. i personally like getting beat by a better dog. tells me i still need work with my dog.. i just lost a hunt this weekend.. we treed a big poplar an shook vine an coon looked.. all dogs treed there.. next tree. 2 dogs tree, mine dont.. smellin round area. get there an handled at tree. guys laugh. i say if coon there ill take my minus.. look up tree only 40 feet. with a vine.. can see tree real good. thin .. shake vine whole tree moves.. no coon.. tree got circled an i lost... i take my lumps.. .. so sometimes buddy system aint even buddys, but 2 guys that will take minus if they dont agree to circle..

Right. See its not an EXACT science. There are variables. But over a period of time, hunt after hunt, cast after cast after cast. Trends and tendancies and patterns show up if you look.

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Posted by walkerman75 on 06-05-2015 08:23 AM:

but what your saying will only show bad towards dog.. not the handler or the judge.. people aint breeding or buying a handler or judge, there getting the dog.. so if a dog wass in 20 hunts an had 10 dif judges. an had a crappy handler.. u would only b seeing the dog lost 20 hunts.. not the handler was crappy.. an the dog very well could b a good dog out of good stock,, wont prove nothing on statistics ,, if you look at records u say oh he lost 20 hunts.. if you hunt with dog an he trees 3 times an has 3 coons.. your statistics just changed.. right

Posted by msinc on 06-05-2015 12:25 PM:

Walkerman75 has an excellent point and I will take it one step further and say I have personally seen 3 really fantastic dogs in my lifetime that were owned by guys that tried them in competition hunts and were cheated. The sad part is that the guys never bothered with the hunts again. To make it worse...no one really recognized their dogs and the result was a loss to us all. These dogs never were bred and produced no puppies for anyone else to enjoy. Maybe they would have been on the reproducers list, maybe they were great dogs that didn't reproduce, but the point is because of trophy chasing cheaters we will never know.

Posted by yadkintar on 06-05-2015 01:02 PM:

Well I am going to have to disagree you can take a really good dog and a sorry handler (me) all you have to do is strike and tree that really good dog and the dog will do the rest far as the cheaters if you just keep a smile on your face and be polite as your stuffing coon after coon up they're back sides they can't cheat you every time lol !!

Posted by msinc on 06-05-2015 02:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Well I am going to have to disagree you can take a really good dog and a sorry handler (me) all you have to do is strike and tree that really good dog and the dog will do the rest far as the cheaters if you just keep a smile on your face and be polite as your stuffing coon after coon up they're back sides they can't cheat you every time lol !!

Yes, you absolutely can and should do exactly as you are describing...but, not all guys will. They get cheated, they get a bad attitude and they just stop, it's just that simple...should they have done what you say??? Sure, but that is not what these particular fellas chose to do.

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 06-05-2015 05:02 PM:

Everything yall are saying is true. Yes. But your thinking on way way way too small of a scale. Think big. Your thinking one dog and one handler. I'm talking about entire bloodlines. Stud dogs offspring. Clubs. Patterns.

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Posted by Jason Baldwin on 06-05-2015 05:07 PM:

You will look at results of individual dogs but if you continue dog after dog after dog after dog looking at the records you can find patterns in regards to bloodlines , stud dogs , etc.

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Posted by walkerman75 on 06-05-2015 05:19 PM:

but how will you no what stud dog each dog is out of... there alot of dogs out there out of alot of different stud dogs.. aint no way to figure out who made who

Posted by yadkintar on 06-05-2015 05:20 PM:

Jason if you really get the whole truth I would be with you 100 percent but I have seen major breeders have dogs hauled all over the US to get those titles put on those all grands at those little 1 dog ntch buddy buddy hunts then when run at stud the public just ate it up personlly in years I haven't bred to a dog that I didn't hunt with the three studs I had I hunted with anybody that wanted to see them go plus it's usually so far between good dogs for me when I get a good one I don't want to leave it home lol !

Posted by pamjohnson on 06-06-2015 12:29 AM:

years ago hunted with a dog (unamed dog) at some local hunts often. it was a nice dog but im sure it took a fair # of hunts to finish the dog out. later the dog went on to win the world hunt.it was a nice coondog.

next thing you will want an age adjustment along with the # of hunts it took.

how bout after it finished to gr nt ch maybe someone can keep track of every, hunt win ratio , for the bigger hunts and $ hunts.

Posted by GA DAWG on 06-06-2015 01:46 AM:

I had a buddy that had a coon treeing sucker but hewas unlucky in the hunts. Had like 14 second place finishes. In today's comp world that would never happen. He never even made him ntch. I saw him leading the scores one night with like 575. Here thats one heck of a score. About 5 min till deadline a cast comes in with a young blue male as winner with 6 something. I felt plum sorry for him. Thats about the last one I rem him hunting. To me if they win their cast consistently an do like he did. I dont care if it took a 100 hunts. You cant help where you draw to. You can just try and beat what you draw.

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Posted by msinc on 06-06-2015 02:58 AM:

I really believe that for the end result you are looking for the performance pedigree that UKC has is close enough. When it first came out if I remember right it was called P.A.D. {pups and degrees} it is, I believe, the most useful tool we have along the lines of what you are looking for and the computer made it practical.
I agree it does not show the in depth information you are wanting to have included. I also agree that what you are asking for would be fantastic and extremely helpful to the point it could possibly change breeding coonhounds way to the better.
Just comparing the number of pups and the number of them that make nite and grand nite champion is still valuable information. If a stud dog produces at a fantastic 12 to 14% of course not all of those degreed dogs would be one you will want to own. Of course some of them maybe made it by doing something questionable, but I would bet that number is less than 1%. Some will have made it by catching a few lucky breaks but again, how low would that percentage really be.
You are looking at it from a "what cant we see" standpoint, but I think there is a definite "what can we see" or "what do we know" side to this that counts for a great deal of valuable information. When I see a dog reproducing at 14%, and bear in mind it is very hard to get to that point, what that means to me is that out of every 100 puppies the dog produced we don't know how many were given a serious chance, but it has to be a lot because 14 of those puppies went on to beat everything else in a few hunts. Their owners thought they were good enough to spend money to buy, feed, raise, train and then enter in and win enough hunts to make them a champion. Maybe one or two slid by and skated, but the other 12 have to be fantastic dogs. That has to count for something.
People say things like "papers don't tree coons" and "titles don't mean anything"...yeah, O.K. you try to sell a litter of Walkers these days with all PR dogs and no titles in the pedigree. You will be feeding most of them until you raise, train and prove them. Then they might sell.

Posted by AppalachianBlue on 06-06-2015 03:31 AM:

I know people wit pr lone pines that sell whole litters every year.

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Posted by Jason Baldwin on 06-06-2015 05:42 AM:

no dog wins every hunt its entered in. At least not that I know of. My dogs may have a TERRIBLE win - loss ratio if this ever got started and was available. But at the same time, im not gonna make them out to be something they are not. Why are people so defensive ? Its a tool to help educate the common coon hunter. That's all.

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Posted by walkerman75 on 06-06-2015 07:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Baldwin
no dog wins every hunt its entered in. At least not that I know of. My dogs may have a TERRIBLE win - loss ratio if this ever got started and was available. But at the same time, im not gonna make them out to be something they are not. Why are people so defensive ? Its a tool to help educate the common coon hunter. That's all.

i understand your point.. but im not shure how it will educate the common coonhunter.. just dont see the point on that much more paper work an trouble to try an keep up with a win loss ratio on a dog.. jmo.. do what ever you all like but i dont want no part of it, for simple fact it might make a dog with a slick handler look good an b bred alot an cant tree its own coon. an a dog with a crappy handler that is a real nice dog look bad an not get bred.. will shure hurt the bloodlines on coondogs an make a impact on the real good reproducers.. jmo. do what yall like.

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 06-06-2015 07:30 AM:

That statistic would be included in the hunt records though. You can see it for yourself. For instance. You got a stud dog that's produced 20 nite champions and 5 grand nites. Ok great. The record would also plainly show that out of those 25 titled dogs, 18 of them were handled in the hunts on nearly every single win they received by the same handler and with the same guide. Now, was it dirty ? Who knows , but now you see the facts. You ask around and find out that the actual "owner" of 12 of those titled dogs is also the owner of the stud dog. You then find out that this certain particular handler is paid a big price tag to do what he does and he has no regular job at all - his job is handling dogs - which, in and of itself is fairly common in the competition hunting world and no harm at all, except in this particular case is a piece to a puzzle as well. Now, you pick out several of those 18 titled dogs and hunt with them a few nights. They all have the same problem - ( they cannot show you a coon ) now you can kinda figure out a few things. So now tell me , would you breed your female to this dog or drive 1,500 miles across the country and pay $1,000 for a puppy ? This is not a tool to take the place of actual hunting. Not at all. But it could help educate folks and give them a starting place and narrow down their search.

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Posted by Jason Baldwin on 06-06-2015 08:05 AM:

You pay $400 per puppy from different bloodlines and breeders and over the course of 8 years you buy 5 of those pups. That is $2,000 spent on those pups altogether. The first 4 never made it and you didn't even keep them. You regret it. The last one done great and you enjoy the dog. So you spent about 7 years and $1,600 on 4 different pups that never even made a keeper. Not to mention the other costs of raising them. Add it up. Now, what if you could go back 8 years ago and find out there is no point dealing with any of those bloodlines to start with ? What if the bottom line is, after the research you done, you found out that those bloodlines excel in ONE particular part of the country and ONE particular situation. Which is absolutely not where you live or your situation at all. What if in this scenario, there's nothing dirty or any cheating going on whatsoever ? The dogs got it honest. They truly did. But you simply didn't understand the situation. That's all it boils down to.

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Posted by msinc on 06-06-2015 12:57 PM:

I totally get it...and I am all for it. I just don't see it as feasible enough to think we ever will see it happen. I hope so and it would be very extremely valuable info to anyone that is serious about coon dogs.
I would add to the above puppy scenario...5 puppies at $400 each just buys the ownership. That does not even get them to your house!!! You can maybe figure $200.00 each to get them home and that is probably cheap. Then you have to register, vet and feed them for a year, if that is even long enough. Bottom line, if the actual cost of the pup itself was all it took, shoot, I wouldn't worry about the info I have right now.
It all goes back to what John Wick writes about in his book...for the cost of raising and training/breaking a puppy you are money ahead to buy one outright and cut thru all the chance taking that he wont make it because he already has. All that said, you can spend a lot of time and money finding that broke dog too.

Posted by AppalachianBlue on 06-06-2015 03:24 PM:

Like I said before. itl make lazy breeders that want some one else to do they're work. and participation will go way down in events when attendance already is on a downward spiral. Cause ur dictating it and makin it all to serious. Stop tryin to make it unenjoyable and like a business.

Posted by shane_atchison on 06-06-2015 04:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Baldwin
You pay $400 per puppy from different bloodlines and breeders and over the course of 8 years you buy 5 of those pups. That is $2,000 spent on those pups altogether. The first 4 never made it and you didn't even keep them. You regret it. The last one done great and you enjoy the dog. So you spent about 7 years and $1,600 on 4 different pups that never even made a keeper. Not to mention the other costs of raising them. Add it up. Now, what if you could go back 8 years ago and find out there is no point dealing with any of those bloodlines to start with ? What if the bottom line is, after the research you done, you found out that those bloodlines excel in ONE particular part of the country and ONE particular situation. Which is absolutely not where you live or your situation at all. What if in this scenario, there's nothing dirty or any cheating going on whatsoever ? The dogs got it honest. They truly did. But you simply didn't understand the situation. That's all it boils down to.

Here's a thought: 1. Maybe the whole theory is WRONG?? What if the DAM is just as important as the the SIRE? What if proper handling & training were more common? If people started adding up cost of raising & proper training, pups would be a lot less expensive(as they should be) and finished hounds would be more valuable (as they should be).

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Posted by AppalachianBlue on 06-06-2015 05:29 PM:

Thats why where iv went to get pups have been semi local. Similar enviroments

Posted by GA DAWG on 06-06-2015 05:54 PM:

Ive been thinking and think Id rather see lists of all the cheats that get caught. All the sorry son of a guns that steal money from folks on here and other places. The sorry rascals that lie and cheat on dog deals. You know that kinda stuff. I wanna know who the crooks are and why ukc is so skeered to let anybody say anything about em. All the sue talk is scare tactics. So they can cheat more people.

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Posted by AppalachianBlue on 06-06-2015 05:57 PM:

Agreed

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