UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Direct from UKC Legal Counsel (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928409685)

quote:

---

Originally posted by walkerman75
an i noticed it said about dogs fighting hogs.. what i think that refers to is the multipule vedios of 10 people standing around with a hog an dogs in a pin an someone recording it... if it wasnt for them videos people would not think things.. i understand thats how u train a hog dog. but we dont need to give people ammo to use against us... the videos that have been an are being posted on social medias. is what gives them there ammo.. videos of dogs treeing coon. or dogs baying hogs are diferent then a video of a dog chewing on a coon or a hog.. i hope u see my point.. not defending the bill. im just making a statement

---

__________________
Skip Hartline
219-325-0914- H
CELL 219-898-5725


gone but will never be forgotten

PR Van Dusen's Hanna o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Maggie o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Mickey o/h
PR Buck Brush Copper o/h
D NTCH PR Crooked Oak Boss o/h
D NtCH PR Alford's Alibi h
NTCH PR Alford's Hatchet h
NT CH PR Mill's Dotty h

Re: Re: Direct from UKC Legal Counsel

quote:

---

Originally posted by John D


But that's kind of a blind, knee jerk reaction, isn't it? Just because people from HSUS breathe, doesn't mean we should stop breathing, does it? If UKC tells us we should breath air, does that mean they sold out to HSUS?? No way. That's ridiculous but that's exactly the logic of a lot of posters on this subject.

As far as whether this law has any new effect on coonhunting, an actual lawyer posted this:

quote:
Originally posted by S Chisnell

So you can see that hunters are already currently exempted and that will not change with the proposed bill, as I have previously stated. Ths exemption for hunters has existed for 20+ years and has worked to protect hunters all that time--nothing changes that now. .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by S Chisnell

The EXISTING CURRENT LAW in Kentucky already states:

525.125 Cruelty to animals in the first degree.
(1) The following persons are guilty of cruelty to animals in the first degree
whenever a four-legged animal is caused to fight for pleasure or profit:
(a) The owner of the animal;
(b) The owner of the property on which the fight is conducted if the owner
knows of the fight;
(c) Anyone who participates in the organization of the fight.
(2) Activities of animals engaged in hunting, field trials, dog training, and other
activities authorized either by a hunting license or by the Department of Fish
and Wildlife shall not constitute a violation of this section.
(3) Cruelty to animals in the first degree is a Class D felony.


The proposed bill would add the following wording to expand the class of animal fighters who can be charged:

"
Any person who knowingly owns, possesses, keeps, breeds, trains, sells, or otherwise transfers a four-legged animal for the purpose of that animal or its offspring being used to fight for pleasure or profit is guilty of cruelty to animals in the first degree."

---

__________________
Tree Jar'n Black and Tans
Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels


319-201-8445

quote:

---

Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
I have to sign off and go. I will be back Monday morning.

---

__________________
GR NT CH GR CH PKC Platnum CH
HTX3
Wild Style Stylish Slammer
Charlie Portwood Jr.

the term 4 legged is already in the existing bill kentucky has.. if thats the sole reason people are complaining we should have had this arguement along time ago

__________________
home of;;;;
FCH NITECH GRCH'PR'BOYDS NOCTURNAL PEG[walker] RIP

GRNITE CH GRFCH GRCH'PR' ALL GRAND HARRYS MAN HTX 2 [walker]

GRCH FCH WCH PR HARRYS BIG BAD BOOMER HTX

NITECH CH VIRGINIAS MIGHTY MOE

quote:

---

Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
High Ridge....I don't know what it takes to change wording. It's not our bill. It's my understanding that it is hard. I don't know. Yes, I would like them to change the wording but the way I understand it, that is the wording in all States.

---

__________________
Windy Gap Kennels
*Home of*
*Strouds Wipeout Zack Again
****R.I.P****
Ntch'Ch Southern Style Windy Gap Nailor
Ntch' Yadkin River Late Nite Hobo
GrCh'Windy Gap Knockem Down Hanna
CH'Showtime Lakota 2

I don't like the way the Arkansas dog fighting bill is worded either. Called my Senator and he said were better off leaving it alone because of the power these anti dog groups have nowadays. Another words, if you push em, it could get worse. He said as long as their not bothering you, leave it alone.

You see fellas, It takes money anymore to talk!! And the truth is, it'll take all of us getting together as one voice, and of course, digging into our wallets to make a difference!!! Money talks!!! The tree huggers are sure not afraid to dish it out for their lobbiers.

__________________
Bobby Cagle,
Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

This has been a hot topic on this board for a while. I have some experience on both sides and wanted to get my 2 cents worth in. I have been an animal control officer for the past 20 years and know the frustrations of law enforcement when dealing with dog fighting. You pretty much have to catch someone in the act to prosecute them the way most laws are written. We also have breeders promoting those Jeep, Gator, etc. bloodlines selling them as game bred but also claim to not fight dogs. With that being said laws are needed to help law enforcement stop dog fighting because the public will not help stop it.

It is true HSUS is against all hunters stand for and they have payed staff in each state. I live in South Carolina and have met with the HSUS representative while at the state house concerning animal shelter legislation. I agree with UKC that there will be times that even enemies have to agree especially on an issue that is right. We had issues in SC with the hog/dogging where people would put an APBT and hog in a pen and watch the dog kill it for amusement. Most of us hunters probably know someone who does these things or keeps bad looking dogs of any breed. We as hunters need to police our own because turning a blind eye causes legislatures to write laws like this.

For those condemning UKC they cannot write states laws nor can they dictate what lawmakers put in them. Only Kentuckys law makers can do this and they work for VOTERS! How many who post on here have honestly e mailed all of their representatives? Be polite when giving your opinion or asking questions and let them know they can call on you anytime for legislation involving hounds. If you act like lots on here have they will write you off as crazy!I don't know about each state but SC has laws like this and I have never heard of a hunter having any trouble.

Lastly I have been a coon hunter for 32 years and have a passion for it and have taken my share of kids over the years. I also try and set an example of good sportsmanship and stewardship. A lot has changed over the years and if we don't change how we do things a little it only gives groups fuel to add to their fire. Social media has brought all of these folks together ,especially on FB, in the form of rescue groups. Get to know who they are and what they are doing in YOUR community. With the same passion we have for hunting they are home posting against it. Become informed about you dogs condition because most folks have obese dogs and think yours are skinny. Google the Purina BSC chart for a good reference.

Guess this turned into 50 cents sorry. Pray over all of it.

WELL SAID JOEL.. WELL SAID

__________________
home of;;;;
FCH NITECH GRCH'PR'BOYDS NOCTURNAL PEG[walker] RIP

GRNITE CH GRFCH GRCH'PR' ALL GRAND HARRYS MAN HTX 2 [walker]

GRCH FCH WCH PR HARRYS BIG BAD BOOMER HTX

NITECH CH VIRGINIAS MIGHTY MOE

I think the UKC would be better off to stayed out of this.

__________________
Jimmy Gatlin

Over legislation! There's so many laws out there that its impossible to know all of em. And when they make these laws, their not specific, their blanket laws that include the innocent. And now, what happens, is the loudest and most expensive voice, get their way. IMO.

__________________
Bobby Cagle,
Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

I remember when Missouri's chicken fighting bill was on the ballot. It failed in every county with the exception of St Louis and those in the KC area, however passed by a wide margin in those urban counties and was enough to push it through.

the sheriffs response from those rural counties said it all. they had better things to do than run down the breeders and bust up the rings.

fast forward 20yrs or so.........and there are as many now as there ever were

__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

You mean to tell me chicken fightin is illegal? Law passed or not. Its still illegal and its still gonna happen. Be no different than if they outlawed coon hunting in Ga tue night. Id be in the woods wed night. Enforce the laws we have. Quit making new ones over and over. I do agree with stuff said above. Ukc should have stayed out of it or pushed for a bill of their own if they were so worried about it.

__________________
Michael Ghorley

I posted this on another thread, but that thread seems to have gotten lost ,


I raised the question to sara chisnell about LGDs (livestock guardian dogs) herd dogs and the like......and the effect this bill had on those. no response yet but maybe its because its the weekend. I do note that PKC raised the same questions in there response to the law. pretty crazy when me and PKC agree on ANYTHING :O

also she has not responded about the dog fight breaking out in a cast and that NOT being covered in the wording of the law. that is a paper trail I can see a subpoena being issued to get ahold of(3 times per dog last I looked before anything is really even done about it). as the law is worded now killing a coon in season wouldn't be a violation, however if the dogs fight over that coon or if (using a PKC term here) they "jockey for position" on the tree IT IS NOT COVERED AND IS A FELONY. only the act of hunting is exempt, not anything else that comes from it.

__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

is anybody in the woods paying to soly watch 2 dogs fight. or di it just happen becuz they couldnt get along. becuz in my eyes if your hunting an something takes place you are coverd under the fact that your hunting.. hunting is excluded. this is for the people that pay to specificaly watch dogs fight for enjoyment.. im not defending ukc or this bill,.. but if everybody that posts about it con not read in the law were it says hunting feildtrial an all other by license or from department of fish an game ,, as a club u have to apply for a permit to hold a night hunt.. an if a fight does break out then the state its self would b at fault becuz they sold the club a permit.. AM I RIGHT OR AM I WRONG

__________________
home of;;;;
FCH NITECH GRCH'PR'BOYDS NOCTURNAL PEG[walker] RIP

GRNITE CH GRFCH GRCH'PR' ALL GRAND HARRYS MAN HTX 2 [walker]

GRCH FCH WCH PR HARRYS BIG BAD BOOMER HTX

NITECH CH VIRGINIAS MIGHTY MOE

I read the law. I understand the wording of the law.

lets say every thing you said is true ( and I think that is the intent behind the law to be honest) under the wording of the law any aggression from the dog towards intended game would be a hunting activity and would be exempt. any aggressive acts among the dogs WOULD NOT BE COVERED. only the hunting act.

if it was I could use that field trial license to make any dog fight legal I wanted.

even if it WAS covered, that still doesn't address the issue of LGDs and the like. they guard herds from free roaming mongrels who at times maul stock. not a hunting activity.

I promise you the best ring fighter in the business wouldn't last more than a couple minutes in the pasture with my LGDs. over the years (we have a lot of loose pitts and pitt crosses around here along with the occasional lab ect) I have come to believe my LGDs think they taste like chicken

__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

are u being payed to watch the hunting dogs that have agresion .are u trying to stop it or incourage it.. an as for your dogs protectingur flock,, are u getting pleasure from them defending your flock.. they are doing there job.. it is against the law to punch a guy in the face.. but if u are a bouncer in a club an you are protecting a the people in the bar you are exempt .. am i wrong

__________________
home of;;;;
FCH NITECH GRCH'PR'BOYDS NOCTURNAL PEG[walker] RIP

GRNITE CH GRFCH GRCH'PR' ALL GRAND HARRYS MAN HTX 2 [walker]

GRCH FCH WCH PR HARRYS BIG BAD BOOMER HTX

NITECH CH VIRGINIAS MIGHTY MOE

I guess watching humans fight is legal cause you can turn over to a couple of channels and watch them beat the hell out of each other. Blood everywhere, broke arms, legs, noses and bones showing. People choose what they want to except in life I guess.

yep your wrong. or at least IMO you are.

if I was working for a hunter or farmer charged under this law I would offer the same argument you just made. if I was working for HSUS or PETA, I would make the argument I myself made. what argument won in court would depend on the judge or jury hearing it. I suspect here in rural Missouri your argument would win, in a more urban court mine would. I would think the same would be true in Kentucky.

in Missouri we also use what is known as legislative construction (I think texas is the only other state that uses that if I remember right). that means when laws seem to conflict with another, or when seeking out legislative intent behind a law, we use other laws to further define. in other words, he who argues best wins.

__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

i agree with you. im not going to dispute that.. but in my opinion. your lgds would still b guilty as u put it even by they way the law is now.. right.. what there trying to add would make they man that bred them guilty. right.. granted i agree with everything your flock guard dogs do.. the are protecting there flock . if something happens an they kill something in there field. you are not geting payed for people to watch it.. an i asume u pay taxes for raising your flock . an them taxes go to department of fish an game.. at least a portion does.. so y wouldnt they b included in being exempt from punishment.. if i was your lawyer that would b my arguement.. it is the other sides job to show me my tax dollers do not go to help fish an wildlife..

__________________
home of;;;;
FCH NITECH GRCH'PR'BOYDS NOCTURNAL PEG[walker] RIP

GRNITE CH GRFCH GRCH'PR' ALL GRAND HARRYS MAN HTX 2 [walker]

GRCH FCH WCH PR HARRYS BIG BAD BOOMER HTX

NITECH CH VIRGINIAS MIGHTY MOE

Walkerman75 you are exactly right about what some people were saying about the 4 legged law, this is not my argument here. It's how UKC went about it. There is alot bigger picture being painted here you are not seeing. It's how UKC went about it. They should have contacted the KHA before making a public statement to see how they stood on this new bill but they didn't. Have you ever saw HSUS, PETA and Anti-Group praise UKC before? Never has so much attention been drawn to our state because of UKC,s support for this bill, heck The Humane Society thinks they've already won because of UKC,s involvement and during the phone conference when the UKC Lawyer admitted she had been working along side the Humane Society thats when I knew we were in trouble and that's when I sat my foot down and said no more. They, the HSUS and others will not stop. They will try and keep changing our legislation until the word "Hounds of any kind are no longer used for chasing or molesting any 4 legged animal". No mas! I'm making my stand now.

UKC

I understand and appreciate all of the commotion this subject has caused. I will start by saying in no way do I support this bill since there are already laws to remedy this problem. I do want to make a point in saying this. Please do some research on those whom you are condemning. I went to the US Sportsman Alliance to look to see if the UKC is a business sponsor. They are the only coonhound registry that has a business membership and while I was looking there is not a single business that is listed in the "Dog Supply Vendors" that has a business membership. I have followed the USSA for three years now and they are on top of things. I suggest that every single person that is not a member pay the $25 and sign up TODAY. I would also challenge business owner on here to sign up today even if means charging an extra 1% to me and everybody else on here. While most hate to here the words "send money" it beats the heck out of losing our rights as hunters. The antis spent 2.5 MILLION in Maine to try to shut down bear hunting and just settled with Ringling Bros. and they have not slowed down. The USSA also has a spot for clubs so I say up the dues on your hunting lease to have your club listed as well.
Doug

quote:

---

Originally posted by blackflagginit
yep your wrong. or at least IMO you are.

if I was working for a hunter or farmer charged under this law I would offer the same argument you just made. if I was working for HSUS or PETA, I would make the argument I myself made. what argument won in court would depend on the judge or jury hearing it. I suspect here in rural Missouri your argument would win, in a more urban court mine would. I would think the same would be true in Kentucky.

.

---

__________________
Tree Jar'n Black and Tans
Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels


319-201-8445

For all these people talking about quitting UKC due to their KY HB-154 stance, there sure are a lot of you still lingering around to whine about it.

__________________
CH 'PR' Thunderstruck Russian Gold [ENG] "Chunk"
||AKC CCH ACHA GRNITECH CH UKC GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' Taylor's Rasputin x AKC CSG UKC CCH GRCH 'PR' Allen's Little Gold Magic - co-owned by Lesa Watson & Caleb Tolley||
-2015 NC State Championship BMOB
-2015 English Days Puppy Class Winner Thurs. & Fri.
-2015 UKC Shriner's Hospital Benefit BMOS
CH 'PR' Taylor Made Thundering Magic [ENG] "Molly"
||BIMBS RBIMBS CCH CH 'PR' Whiterock Mountain Red Ruger x GRCH 'PR' Hill's Little Dolly - co-owned with Lesa Watson||
-2015 TN Youth State Championship BFOB
-2015 UKC RQE BFOS
'PR' Thunderstruck "Grace" O'Malley [ENG]
||GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' Spanky's Hillbilly Stinger x CH 'PR' Thompson's Hillbilly Carrie||
CH 'PR' Thunderstruck "Jewel" Weed [Plott]
||Bias Bred||
'PR' Thunderstruck Rittercruz "Ivy" & 'PR' Thunderstruck Fistful Of Dollars "Joe" [Plott littermates]
||AKC CGCH GCH CH UKC GRCH CCH 'PR' C-Cruz Mob Boss Vito's Gotcha x AKC CH UKC CCH GRCH 'PR' County Line Eleanor||
GRCH Thunderstruck Silver "Nugget" [ALH]
||GRNITECH GRCH Stampede's Camo Dazzle x GRCH By Faith Blessed Assurance||
-2015 Grand American BMOB
-2015 Winter Classic Senior Class Winner
-2015 Winter Classic Overall High Scoring ALH Male
-2015 SETWD BMOB, Fri. & Sat.
-2015 Macon Co. CHA Benefit BMOS, Sat.
-2015 Peach Classic CH Male, Fri. & Sat.
-2015 Peach Classic Overall High Scoring ALH
-2015 Plott Sectional CH Male
-2015 UKC RQE CH Male
-2015 English Days Overall High Scoring ALH
-2015 PlottFest CH Male
-2015 WNC Houndsmen GRCH Male
-2015 Shriner's Hospital Benefit GRCH Male
Thunderstruck A Holy Terror [ALH] "Cas"
||GRCH GRNITECH By Faith Coat Of Many Colors HTX x CH Striker's Bawlin' Blitz||
Thunderstruck H&A's Indigo Skies [ALH] "Sky"
||WSHOWCH CCH GRCH Elburn's Indigo x R&A's Lilly Of The Valley - Co-owned with Adena Fussnecker||
'PR' Thunderstruck Super "Fly" [ALH]
||Gurley Creek Buddy x Gurley Creek Half Stack Susie||

im not going to court to argue any point. im just using my god givin right to say whats on my mind.. if you all want to keep pointing fingers at each other go ahead.. i was trying to let calmer heads prevail. but obviously that aint gonna happen... everybody is against ukc now becuz of this.. but if something happens an somebody trys to stop hound hunting.. do you think ukc will just set by an let it happen... I DONT THINK SO.. there hunting program means alot more to them then what youall think it does. ill garentee it.. an just as this post shows.120 sumthing an still growing everybody that says ukc screwed us is still on the ukc mesage board posting.. i will let this post alone now so you all can have your rant time

__________________
home of;;;;
FCH NITECH GRCH'PR'BOYDS NOCTURNAL PEG[walker] RIP

GRNITE CH GRFCH GRCH'PR' ALL GRAND HARRYS MAN HTX 2 [walker]

GRCH FCH WCH PR HARRYS BIG BAD BOOMER HTX

NITECH CH VIRGINIAS MIGHTY MOE

If all here think that UKC is trying to screw you over and has, answer a question for me? Why would they allow this issue to stay on their message board so openly and talk to you about it the way they have? I promise you, and you all know it to be fact, the first mention on the Prohound board that puts PKC in any negative light, its removed and a nasty email was sent to its author to not do it again. UKC is a friend to all here, and they do work hard to help each of us. And they also allow you to speak your piece on THEIR board, pro or con. To that I say thanks.

__________________
Robert " Rock" Johnson

Johnson Creek Kennels
home of:
UKC Grand Nite Champion "PR" Yadkin River Addkis. Deceased 12/11/2016 RIP

2009/2010/2011/2012 AKC GA. State Leader and Supreme Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

2010 ACHA Georgia State Champion Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

PKC Champion Yadkin River Addkis

Bright Eye Lights


Treeing Walkers

912-663-5287 cell (perfered)