UKC Forums - Why and What?

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-- Why and What? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928336797)

Posted by okietreedog on 09-11-2013 03:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
You got names and resumes? I follow pretty close and i allready got a pup outa piazon,id say him and his pups have acomplished more than any other male alive!

Did you forget the echo dogs? last time i checked Echo II made it to world hunt, Bodacious and bocephus following in line bocephus pup are young but i hear he is throwing some nice pups.

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Posted by coonbone on 09-11-2013 03:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
Dancer, Son, Hillbilly, Jet 8, Gauge, Grover, Double Barrel Durango. Pie for sure too. Brummy has held his own anywhere I've carried him. That's dogs that are alive or recently deceased, several more in the past that were a handful any time you drew them. Not a bunch like I said, but some that I'd put up against anything.

I haven't hunted with any of these dogs.Clyde,can you explain a trait,or that extra edge that made any of these dogs hard to beat? And are they passing this on to there pups? I guess the ones i'd be most interested in are the ones that are still alive.

Posted by ov_blues on 09-11-2013 03:51 PM:

Piazon

What are the dominant traits that he seems to be throwing?

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Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-11-2013 03:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
AGAIN, what happened to the original question asked on this thread? just about any good thread started by someone In our breed gets blown up and taken off the subject. some of you complain and whine way too much about what others are packing when you yourselves have never won anything worth talking about. some can't loose a hunt because they got beat by a better hound or out handled. some will complain about getting beat and then talk bad about others when they do the same thing. hypocrites! we do have some nice dogs in our breed that carry good traits and just because some of you don't have one or don't like certain lines of hounds or the owners you will let your pride get the best of you and trash dogs you have never hunted with. once again shame on you! stop talking about what it takes and show us!

nuff said!

lets get back to talking about traits in certain dogs and maybe then we can find dominant things in certain lines that will help some of our dog's faults. I was hoping to get educated by this thread.

your right Eddie, I had to go back to remeber just what the original question was lol.

the other breeds threads end up the same way except they're usually saying who cheats the most to win lol

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Posted by Blue Iron on 09-11-2013 03:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by coonbone
I haven't hunted with any of these dogs.Clyde,can you explain a trait,or that extra edge that made any of these dogs hard to beat? And are they passing this on to there pups? I guess the ones i'd be most interested in are the ones that are still alive.

The ones that I've hunted with on this list don't care what another dog is doing, they actually prefer to be split, are willing to go hunting harder and FASTER than the competition and are wanting to get treed not waller around on a track all night and will stay treed until you get there.

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Posted by Tom Jones on 09-11-2013 03:56 PM:

Re: Why and What?

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
[
What lines or individual dogs do some of you think would be known for being well above average on a particular trait ( tree, go, independence, locating ability, accuracy, etc. ) and would improve that trait on most other bloodline? [/B]

Mr. Smith, what do you mean by locating abaility? quick one bark, tree them on their locate i presume since accuracy was mentioned next?

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-11-2013 04:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
your right Eddie, I had to go back to remeber just what the original question was lol.

the other breeds threads end up the same way except they're usually saying who cheats the most to win lol

lol I almost forgot myself

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Posted by wesley martin on 09-11-2013 04:12 PM:

The Sugar female I believe passed on a trait of being competive with other dogs. I have hunted with a few going back to her which were better in a cast than alone. They just will try twice as hard to beat the other dogs. In the last few world hunts several go back to her Saline Sadie, Layup Lucy, Bocephus, Flo, and I think last years male of Mr. Duncan. Not to mention all the other good dogs going back to her.

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-11-2013 04:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wesley martin
The Sugar female I believe passed on a trait of being competive with other dogs. I have hunted with a few going back to her which were better in a cast than alone. They just will try twice as hard to beat the other dogs. In the last few world hunts several go back to her Saline Sadie, Layup Lucy, Bocephus, Flo, and I think last years male of Mr. Duncan. Not to mention all the other good dogs going back to her.

that's a great observation and would be hard to argue against with that many nice dogs behind it. thanks for sharing that

Posted by ov_blues on 09-11-2013 04:26 PM:

Re: Re: Why and What?

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
Mr. Smith, what do you mean by locating abaility? quick one bark, tree them on their locate i presume since accuracy was mentioned next?

Locating ability is a term I used to hear more from the generations before me. I guess it really isn't a common term now. A dog that was described as a good locating dog treed coon more quickly and accurately than an average dog, almost like the tree with the coon in it had a magnet on it and the dog just was pulled onto the side of it. A dog that can get treed accurately that doesn't have to "check" the tree by circling, that can commit to a tree before it even gets to the tree the coon is in. An extra special locating dog trees coon that other dogs don't even know are there, trees coons that other dogs miss and the other dogs go on, or they drop out of a race and fall treed 30 to 50 yards off to the side and have a coon.

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Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-11-2013 04:35 PM:

i understand, thanks

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Posted by coonbone on 09-11-2013 05:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
The ones that I've hunted with on this list don't care what another dog is doing, they actually prefer to be split, are willing to go hunting harder and FASTER than the competition and are wanting to get treed not waller around on a track all night and will stay treed until you get there.

Sounds like the traits my dogs need.Thank you for the response.

Posted by coonbone on 09-11-2013 05:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wesley martin
The Sugar female I believe passed on a trait of being competive with other dogs. I have hunted with a few going back to her which were better in a cast than alone. They just will try twice as hard to beat the other dogs. In the last few world hunts several go back to her Saline Sadie, Layup Lucy, Bocephus, Flo, and I think last years male of Mr. Duncan. Not to mention all the other good dogs going back to her.

The Rambo II,Sugar cross did produce good.

Posted by Brock Wilson on 09-11-2013 06:53 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HILLBILLY'S BLU
[B]( Just my two cents!) I agree with a lot of what has been said so far on this post. I agree, that several generations of Line (Family) Breeding is needed to establish, and/or lock the desired, or wanted genetic traits. However, I also believe without a selected outcross, the family breeding will only produce more of what is already there..... I think the litters that are produced will have a higher percentage, of commen to good dogs, instead of maybe the (Superstar's) that we all are lookin for. The question is ,,will that (Superstar) Reproduce his/her likeness?? I can't say, and I don't think anyone else can say either, for 100% certainty. I also don't think anybody can say, just breed to any one stud ,and solve all the breeds problems, because all crosses don't work, no matter how good the male, or female is.

Very well said! Very insightful and DEAD ON!

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Posted by 408northville on 09-11-2013 07:45 PM:

Brock, No outcrosses here and I am happy to produce more of what I have. When you outcross you start again and is the cause of lack of improvement in the hounds we have today and I am 100% certain of that.
JTG

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Posted by rance56 on 09-11-2013 09:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
I am 100% certain of that.
JTG

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums...gspuppies22.jpg

reminds me of a very famous quote.

�The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.�

� Bertrand Russell

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Posted by 408northville on 09-11-2013 10:07 PM:

No thanks, I will pass on the advice of socialists.

.Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM, FRS[2] (18 May 1872 � 2 February 1970) was a British philosopher, logician, mathematician, historian, and social critic.[3] At various points in his life he considered himself a liberal, a socialist, and a pacifist.

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
reminds me of a very famous quote.

�The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.�

� Bertrand Russell

Posted by rance56 on 09-11-2013 10:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
No thanks, I will pass on the advice of socialists.

.Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM, FRS[2] (18 May 1872 � 2 February 1970) was a British philosopher, logician, mathematician, historian, and social critic.[3] At various points in his life he considered himself a liberal, a socialist, and a pacifist.

here is another quote, basically same principal. only the closed minded consider one point of view and think they are always right, seems right in line with you way of thinking.

here is another quote, but same principal

The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.�

� Charles Bukowski

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Posted by 408northville on 09-11-2013 10:36 PM:

I doubt he was right.

On July 22, 1944, with World War II ongoing, Bukowski was arrested by FBI agents in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he was living at the time, on suspicion of draft evasion. He was held for 17 days in Philadelphia's Moyamensing Prison. Sixteen days later he failed a psychological exam that was part of his mandatory military entrance "physical" and was given a Selective Service Classification of 4-F (unfit for military service).

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
here is another quote, basically same principal. only the closed minded consider one point of view and think they are always right, seems right in line with you way of thinking.

here is another quote, but same principal

The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.�

� Charles Bukowski

Posted by rance56 on 09-11-2013 10:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
I doubt he was right.

On July 22, 1944, with World War II ongoing, Bukowski was arrested by FBI agents in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he was living at the time, on suspicion of draft evasion. He was held for 17 days in Philadelphia's Moyamensing Prison. Sixteen days later he failed a psychological exam that was part of his mandatory military entrance "physical" and was given a Selective Service Classification of 4-F (unfit for military service).

he might be wrong, but not for the reasons you are giving. i totally disagree with obama on most things, but i would be foolish to believe he doesnt have any viewpoints that are worth considering on anything. russell was a nobel prize winner. again, you just show your closed mindedness.

you remind of the guy my friend describes that has driven chevy and only a chevy for the past 30 years and is 100% certain they are the best truck

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Posted by 408northville on 09-11-2013 11:03 PM:

Rance, I am wrong to argue with you and I am not closed minded. Do I believe what I doing is working, you bet, is the way I am breeding different you bet and maybe you are the one that is closed minded.

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
he might be wrong, but not for the reasons you are giving. i totally disagree with obama on most things, but i would be foolish to believe he doesnt have any viewpoints that are dworth considering on anything. russell was a nobel prize winner. again, you just show your closed mindedness.

you remind of the guy my friend describes that has driven chevy and only a chevy for the past 30 years and is 100% certain they are the best truck

Posted by ov_blues on 09-11-2013 11:29 PM:

408northville

With all due respect, you are entitled to your own opinion and I am not going to say your are wrong, but to suggest that we should all get a couple dogs that meet our standards, breed them, keep entire litters, cull, keep the best, and repeat the process for several generations is not something that is even feasible for the vast majority of people to do. This process would take almost total dedication to accomplish correctly in my opinion. So, can we get back to the original question about traits?

I personally had to take a few years away from coon hunting to raise kids. When I got back into it heavy about 7 years ago, I personally felt like the other breeds had advanced considerably from what I had remembered. I started questioning to myself why is that and looking at other breeds and maybe different breeding philosophy's and things that may be working for them. I noticed that you may have 4 different Grandsires that were from different lines on several of the big winning dogs. Totally different than what you would typically see on a Blue dogs papers. Those dogs aren't winning by luck and they are from a variety of different "bloodlines'. They are coon hounds so why would it work for them and not in a Bluetick? Traits of the different dogs and blending them together into one hound to make a top coon dog is the only answer that I can come up with.

Not trying to re invent the wheel, but trying to keep an open mind and learn from other coon hound breeders, not just the breeders of Blueticks.

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Posted by max destruction on 09-11-2013 11:31 PM:

408 im glad you have all the answers to bobcat hounds now can we get back to cponhounds

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Posted by max destruction on 09-11-2013 11:39 PM:

Re: 408northville

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
With all due respect, you are entitled to your own opinion and I am not going to say your are wrong, but to suggest that we should all get a couple dogs that meet our standards, breed them, keep entire litters, cull, keep the best, and repeat the process for several generations is not something that is even feasible for the vast majority of people to do. This process would take almost total dedication to accomplish correctly in my opinion. So, can we get back to the original question about traits?

I personally had to take a few years away from coon hunting to raise kids. When I got back into it heavy about 7 years ago, I personally felt like the other breeds had advanced considerably from what I had remembered. I started questioning to myself why is that and looking at other breeds and maybe different breeding philosophy's and things that may be working for them. I noticed that you may have 4 different Grandsires that were from different lines on several of the big winning dogs. Totally different than what you would typically see on a Blue dogs papers. Those dogs aren't winning by luck and they are from a variety of different "bloodlines'. They are coon hounds so why would it work for them and not in a Bluetick? Traits of the different dogs and blending them together into one hound to make a top coon dog is the only answer that I can come up with.

Not trying to re invent the wheel, but trying to keep an open mind and learn from other coon hound breeders, not just the breeders of Blueticks.

Very very well said!

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Posted by max destruction on 09-12-2013 12:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by okietreedog
Did you forget the echo dogs? last time i checked Echo II made it to world hunt, Bodacious and bocephus following in line bocephus pup are young but i hear he is throwing some nice pups.

I have absalutly no experiance at all with that line of blueticks,never been to thr woods with one bred heavy in it.

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