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Posted by l.lyle on 09-28-2012 06:46 PM:

Re: Re: Re: MINUS

quote:
Originally posted by Tully
He never said in the original post that the dogs were declared treed on a previously scored tree. He said they were all declared treed and as they arrived 2 dogs left and went back to a dead tree, that had previously been scored as an individual tree. Question is if both trees were dead. If the tree they left was not previously scored they have to be minused!

I worked for a vet and we sewed some guts back into a steer. The farmer said you did such a fine job,I believe he will pull through. The Vet said," he's dead and and don't know it." "You better get him to market".

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-28-2012 08:19 PM:

I am starting to think some people don't grasp the concept of the previously scored tree. A handler does not have to declare the dog treed if the cast thinks they have went back to a dead tree. If the handler does declare his dog treed and it is found to be on a dead tree then the points are deleted. The dogs in this scenerio were struck and treed and found to be on their previously scored trees, points deleted. Handle yor dogs, timeout is called, and one dog runs off. Handler has an hour to catch it. This scenerio has changed several times so we can only assume his first post was the most correct information.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 09-28-2012 09:28 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
[B]I am starting to think some people don't grasp the concept of the previously scored tree. A handler does not have to declare the dog treed if the cast thinks they have went back to a dead tree. If the handler does declare his dog treed and it is found to be on a dead tree then the points are deleted.

You can't determine anything about a tree until dogs are handled where they were treed at.They left before they could be scored and it be determined to be a previously scored.Minus the two that LEFT THE TREE handle the one that stayed and delete the tree....Start the 8 on the two at large,that's my take on it.YOU CANNOT SCORE ANY TREE UNTIL JUDGE DECIDES DOGS ARE TREEING TO HIS SATISFACTION AND ARE TOLD TO BE HANDLED and when judge watches them walk off of a tree they should of been minused emmediately at that point.Handle what stayed and score the tree,which was obviously deleted.

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 09-28-2012 09:34 PM:

Score the dog(s) as they are called. If you tree your dog, he is supposed to be treed on something. If he is handled at a previously scored tree, delete him.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 09-28-2012 09:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
[B]I am starting to think some people don't grasp the concept of the previously scored tree. A handler does not have to declare the dog treed if the cast thinks they have went back to a dead tree. If the handler does declare his dog treed and it is found to be on a dead tree then the points are deleted.

You can't determine anything about a tree until dogs are handled where they were treed at.They left before they could be scored and it be determined to be a previously scored.Minus the two that LEFT THE TREE handle the one that stayed and delete the tree....Start the 8 on the two at large,that's my take on it.YOU CANNOT SCORE ANY TREE UNTIL JUDGE DECIDES DOGS ARE TREEING TO HIS SATISFACTION AND ARE TOLD TO BE HANDLED and when judge watches them walk off of a tree they should of been minused emmediately at that point.Handle what stayed and score the tree,which was obviously deleted.

Let me really screw up your minds a little....

I heard a story about a cast at the world hunt (championship rules) where they were down to two dogs left in the cast. The dogs split treed by about 50 yards apart, the judge insisted that he see both trees that the dogs were treed on, and so he walked half way between the trees and when he was satisfied that he knew which trees the dogs were on he yelled "HANDLE YOUR DOGS"....and one of the dogs was spooked by the yelling and left before the handler could catch his dog.

The judge walked over to the tree that no longer had a dog under it, leaned a log against the tree and told the handler that he had an hour to catch his dog.

The handler of the dog that left went with the judge to the other dogs tree, and subsequently the dog that left treed yet again, and was called treed. The judge told him that he could not take his tree call, but did write it on the scorecard with a question.

They scored the other dogs tree...not finding a coon, they circled that tree...then went to the tree that had the the log leaned against it, and the judge shined that tree....

When the judge and other handler got to the second tree that the dog made, the judge explained that he had plussed the dogs tree that he left, and that time was out.!!!!

Now, I can't say that I agree with the judge in this case, but I can see the "logic" in his thinking.

He had determined which tree the dog was on, and if there were a possum found in that tree the dog would be eliminated, so he was going to look anyway, if the dog could be eliminated, and it was partially his fault (for yelling the way he did) constituting some form of interference, he felt that the tree was scorable once the judge determined what tree, and told the handler to handle the dogs.

If you follow that logic in this case you would certainly delete the points as soon as you determine that they are treeing on a closed tree.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-28-2012 10:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
[B]I am starting to think some people don't grasp the concept of the previously scored tree. A handler does not have to declare the dog treed if the cast thinks they have went back to a dead tree. If the handler does declare his dog treed and it is found to be on a dead tree then the points are deleted.

You can't determine anything about a tree until dogs are handled where they were treed at.They left before they could be scored and it be determined to be a previously scored.Minus the two that LEFT THE TREE handle the one that stayed and delete the tree....Start the 8 on the two at large,that's my take on it.YOU CANNOT SCORE ANY TREE UNTIL JUDGE DECIDES DOGS ARE TREEING TO HIS SATISFACTION AND ARE TOLD TO BE HANDLED and when judge watches them walk off of a tree they should of been minused emmediately at that point.Handle what stayed and score the tree,which was obviously deleted.

You keep talking abour determining something and scoring something.
As soon as the judge sees that all 3 dogs are at a previously scored tree all points are deleted right then, theres nothing to score ITS A DEAD TREE. because 2 of the dogs then leave doesnt change a thing ITS A DEAD TREE and there is NOTHING TO SCORE.
You say you cant determin anything about a tree until dogs are handled NOT TRUE you always determin which tree they are on before they are handled ALWAYS.

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Posted by joey on 09-28-2012 11:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
You keep talking abour determining something and scoring something.
As soon as the judge sees that all 3 dogs are at a previously scored tree all points are deleted right then, theres nothing to score ITS A DEAD TREE. because 2 of the dogs then leave doesnt change a thing ITS A DEAD TREE and there is NOTHING TO SCORE.
You say you cant determin anything about a tree until dogs are handled NOT TRUE you always determin which tree they are on before they are handled ALWAYS.

Allen must be enjoying this. Its real simple in my mind. Were we disagree is when to delete the points. You cant delete them untill the dogs are handled. Until then the points are live and if they leave they are minused and there strike is still live.

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Posted by englishbuddy on 09-29-2012 01:20 AM:

when the judge saw that the dogs were on a tree already scored IT'S A DEAD ISSUE >>>>>>>>> Call time out get cast back together and recast ......

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-29-2012 04:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
You keep talking abour determining something and scoring something.
As soon as the judge sees that all 3 dogs are at a previously scored tree all points are deleted right then, theres nothing to score ITS A DEAD TREE. because 2 of the dogs then leave doesnt change a thing ITS A DEAD TREE and there is NOTHING TO SCORE.
You say you cant determin anything about a tree until dogs are handled NOT TRUE you always determin which tree they are on before they are handled ALWAYS.

I did not post the bottom half of the post you quoted. I wrote the top half. Stillwater farm added to my post. I agree that it is a dead tree. I wish he would have put his post where it did not look like an addition to mine.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-29-2012 04:59 AM:

My original post that stillwater farm added to

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Posted by Tully on 09-29-2012 05:27 AM:

Re: My original post that stillwater farm added to

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
I am starting to think some people don't grasp the concept of the previously scored tree. A handler does not have to declare the dog treed if the cast thinks they have went back to a dead tree. If the handler does declare his dog treed and it is found to be on a dead tree then the points are deleted.

Regardless of what a handler HAS to do, all dogs WERE declared treed.

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Posted by l.lyle on 09-29-2012 06:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
[B]I am starting to think some people don't grasp the concept of the previously scored tree. A handler does not have to declare the dog treed if the cast thinks they have went back to a dead tree. If the handler does declare his dog treed and it is found to be on a dead tree then the points are deleted.

You can't determine anything about a tree until dogs are handled where they were treed at.They left before they could be scored and it be determined to be a previously scored.Minus the two that LEFT THE TREE handle the one that stayed and delete the tree....Start the 8 on the two at large,that's my take on it.YOU CANNOT SCORE ANY TREE UNTIL JUDGE DECIDES DOGS ARE TREEING TO HIS SATISFACTION AND ARE TOLD TO BE HANDLED and when judge watches them walk off of a tree they should of been minused emmediately at that point.Handle what stayed and score the tree,which was obviously deleted.

NC coonhunter , i'm glad you straightened that out cause it sure did look like you contradicted yourself and I was going "what the Hey".

Posted by Rip on 09-29-2012 02:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Allen must be enjoying this. Its real simple in my mind. Were we disagree is when to delete the points. You cant delete them untill the dogs are handled. Until then the points are live and if they leave they are minused and there strike is still live.

Points are never "alive" on a dead tree. That's why you don't even have to call them treed. You do have to call them struck but you don't have to call them treed. If you think it's a previously scored tree you just go see, even two seconds after they tree.

Now this is where it gets confusing. If the dogs were to leave BEFORE you see that they are on a scored tree then you would minus their tree points if they were treed and their strike would be open. That's why you have to call them struck, and that's why if you really think they are on the same tree it's stupid to tree them.

The problem here is that the judge can plainly see that the dogs indeed ARE on previously scored trees. According to the post they can see the dog and see which tree it left.

In that case you can't "unsee" that. The rule doesn't say the dog has to be handled. It just says "no points"

5: Delete points
"(e) No points, not even circled points, will be awarded
when dogs return to tree that had previously been scored, cast may go to tree without dogs being declared treed, if majority of cast agree, when hunting Judges are used."

So this is one of those grey areas because the rule clearly states no points, none means not minus either, will be awarded when they return to a previously scored tree. Now if you don't know it, like they leave before you see them that's one thing, that's minused because they were called treed and they moved.

But if you are standing there looking at them you can't "unknow" that you saw them treeing on a previously scored tree and in that case I don't see a provision in the rules that would allow you to minus them because the rule clearly says they can't be scored any way, not plus, minus or circle on a previously scored tree. That would be a delete as soon as you confirm that they are on a previously scored tree.

Strike would still be open.

Until UKC rules different this is they way you would have to score it by the rules that are written.

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Posted by StrawberryMt on 09-29-2012 04:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Points are never "alive" on a dead tree. That's why you don't even have to call them treed. You do have to call them struck but you don't have to call them treed. If you think it's a previously scored tree you just go see, even two seconds after they tree.

Now this is where it gets confusing. If the dogs were to leave BEFORE you see that they are on a scored tree then you would minus their tree points if they were treed and their strike would be open. That's why you have to call them struck, and that's why if you really think they are on the same tree it's stupid to tree them.

The problem here is that the judge can plainly see that the dogs indeed ARE on previously scored trees. According to the post they can see the dog and see which tree it left.

In that case you can't "unsee" that. The rule doesn't say the dog has to be handled. It just says "no points"

5: Delete points
"(e) No points, not even circled points, will be awarded
when dogs return to tree that had previously been scored, cast may go to tree without dogs being declared treed, if majority of cast agree, when hunting Judges are used."

So this is one of those grey areas because the rule clearly states no points, none means not minus either, will be awarded when they return to a previously scored tree. Now if you don't know it, like they leave before you see them that's one thing, that's minused because they were called treed and they moved.

But if you are standing there looking at them you can't "unknow" that you saw them treeing on a previously scored tree and in that case I don't see a provision in the rules that would allow you to minus them because the rule clearly says they can't be scored any way, not plus, minus or circle on a previously scored tree. That would be a delete as soon as you confirm that they are on a previously scored tree.

Strike would still be open.

Until UKC rules different this is they way you would have to score it by the rules that are written.

WinnerWinner The rule doesn't say you can't tree your dog. Even if you do tree if by the rule,the majority agrees they are on the same tree you wouldn't have to wait the five but if they were indeed found on a different tree then you would simply back off and finish running the five. Its a decent insurance call in thick coon, therefor smart handling in my opinion. But heck I've been known to minus out a time or three haha.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-29-2012 05:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Points are never "alive" on a dead tree. That's why you don't even have to call them treed. You do have to call them struck but you don't have to call them treed. If you think it's a previously scored tree you just go see, even two seconds after they tree.

Now this is where it gets confusing. If the dogs were to leave BEFORE you see that they are on a scored tree then you would minus their tree points if they were treed and their strike would be open. That's why you have to call them struck, and that's why if you really think they are on the same tree it's stupid to tree them.

The problem here is that the judge can plainly see that the dogs indeed ARE on previously scored trees. According to the post they can see the dog and see which tree it left.

In that case you can't "unsee" that. The rule doesn't say the dog has to be handled. It just says "no points"

5: Delete points
"(e) No points, not even circled points, will be awarded
when dogs return to tree that had previously been scored, cast may go to tree without dogs being declared treed, if majority of cast agree, when hunting Judges are used."

So this is one of those grey areas because the rule clearly states no points, none means not minus either, will be awarded when they return to a previously scored tree. Now if you don't know it, like they leave before you see them that's one thing, that's minused because they were called treed and they moved.

But if you are standing there looking at them you can't "unknow" that you saw them treeing on a previously scored tree and in that case I don't see a provision in the rules that would allow you to minus them because the rule clearly says they can't be scored any way, not plus, minus or circle on a previously scored tree. That would be a delete as soon as you confirm that they are on a previously scored tree.

Strike would still be open.

Until UKC rules different this is they way you would have to score it by the rules that are written.

Rip.. pretty much what i said about three pages back, but i am not sure about the strike points? When the dogs are seen to be treeing on a closed tree,If at that time the tree points disappear logic would say that the strike points do to which would leave us with 2 dogs atlarge and 1 handled.

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Posted by StrawberryMt on 09-29-2012 05:08 PM:

Strike points stay open, 8 is applied and handled dog is recut to opening dogs

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-29-2012 05:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by StrawberryMt
Strike points stay open, 8 is applied and handled dog is recut to opening dogs

Not saying you are wrong but would like to see your opinion backed up by a rule or advisor column or an opinion from UKC. as to why the tree points are deleted and not the strike points at the time the dogs are observed to be on a dead tree.

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 09-29-2012 05:31 PM:

Just say that the dogs were recast off of the tree. They run a few hundred yards, strike, then go back towards previously scored tree, and are DECLARED treed. Then they leave, on the way in there. How would you score them then?

Posted by john Duemmer on 09-29-2012 05:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
Just say that the dogs were recast off of the tree. They run a few hundred yards, strike, then go back towards previously scored tree, and are DECLARED treed. Then they leave, on the way in there. How would you score them then?

It would depend weather or not they were seen to be on the DEAD tree. If they were delete, if not minus.

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 09-29-2012 06:30 PM:

It's no wonder there are so many arguments in the hunts when there are so many people that still can't grasp the rules.

It's a previously scored tree meaning (dead tree no points). Ukc's interpretation is if it's one tree in the air it's one on the ground so bouncing between the two does not get you minused. now Pkc you'd get minused every time.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 09-29-2012 06:52 PM:

That is interesting,you can't score a tree walking in to it........but you can delete it.

You should be scoring the "tree call" before you score the tree.That's kinda like putting the buggy in front of the horse if you ask me.The tree time was dead and dogs left before being handled,that rule infraction should be addressed before the tree ever comes into play but that's just my opinion and everybody sees things alittle different.

If this is UKC's take on scoring it,so be it,It seems to be contradicting there own rules.JMO.

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 09-29-2012 06:54 PM:

Funny Bingham, 2 weeks ago, dogs treed on 2 trees, dog treeing on both, back and forth. Scored as one tree, and the dog treeing on both got minused. It was questioned. FIELD REP, said minus. So the guy tried to show him in advisor, he said that thing don't mean a hill of beans to me

Posted by BIG HAROLD on 09-29-2012 06:57 PM:

If I'm judging, and you tree your dog, and he is not treed when we arrive, he is minused. Closed tree, previously scored tree, anything. If you tree your dog, it is supposed to be treed..... Jmo

Posted by Jack Bingham on 09-29-2012 07:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
Funny Bingham, 2 weeks ago, dogs treed on 2 trees, dog treeing on both, back and forth. Scored as one tree, and the dog treeing on both got minused. It was questioned. FIELD REP, said minus. So the guy tried to show him in advisor, he said that thing don't mean a hill of beans to me

So your trying to tell me that a Ukc field rep. pulls rank on what the UKC rules on. We all know what mistakes they have made at critical times. And if he ruled against the advisor he should be reprimanded because he's not ruling with Ukc on it's interpretations of the rules.

Let me ask you this how many of you have filed formal complaints and won your question.

Posted by Jack Bingham on 09-29-2012 07:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
If I'm judging, and you tree your dog, and he is not treed when we arrive, he is minused. Closed tree, previously scored tree, anything. If you tree your dog, it is supposed to be treed..... Jmo

The question was can u minus a dog bouncing between two trees on the ground if there scored as one in the air. And on previously scored tree.
And if you do minus me I will question the call. If master hounds rules in your favor i will file formal complaint and I will win.

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