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-- titles to titles why we do it. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=481320)

Posted by Dogcop on 02-09-2012 08:05 PM:

I was only saying that would put the old debate to rest. if its called a coonhound it outta be able to tree a coon. And u cant hunt an off colored hound so confirmation is important too. If there were only 2 titles would you show your dog to get the degree or say to hell with it and pleasure hunt?

__________________
RING TAIL KENNELS
Love them Walker dogs!!

Posted by Hey Preacher!!! on 02-09-2012 08:14 PM:

COON DOGS WERE BRED TO BE COON DOGS, AND WALKERS WERE BRED TO BE WALKERS, POODLES MEANT TO BE POODLES, ETC.!!! WITHOUT BREED STANDARDS WE WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT TO CALL WHAT!!! GET A SHIH TZU TO TREE AND YOU'VE GOT A COON DOG, IF IT'S GOOD AT IT, BREED BEST TO BEST!!! MAYBE UKC SHOULD DO AWAY WITH SEPERATE BREEDS AND JUST REGISTER 'COONDOGS' REGARDLESS' OF APPEARENCE!!! 1/2 POMERANIAN,1/4 PLOTT/, 1/4 GREAT PYRENEES, BUT IF IT'S 'COONDOG' BASED ON PERFORMANCE, BREED IT TO A FULL BLOODED LHASA APSO 'COONDOG'!!!

Posted by starplott on 02-09-2012 08:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hey Preacher!!!
OR ONLY PERMIT LITTERS TO BE REGISTERED FROM PARENTS THAT ARE BOTH DUAL GRAND?!!!

Hee hee hee, that is a big can of worms, with a lot of **** at the bottom.

In Germany, and other countries breed wardens are charged with permitting breeding for certain breeds. In order to breed a dog the dog has to be work quality AND meets the breed standard-in addition to health certs being passed.

In order to show you have to have a working title and in order to compete for working title you have to pass breed standard evaluation with no disqualify faults and/or temperament tests.

Fail any one and you just have a pet and breeding is a moot issue.

I read the pudelpointer registry contract a few years ago. WOW. You have to prove yourself worthy to get a female puppy. Breed a litter w/o your dog being cleared or the dog you bred to...$10,000 fine.

Some in order to be work registered they have to pass health certs.

It works both ways. If we implemented such restrictions on coonhounds. UKC would lose $ all the way around. Not only would there be less show dogs...any hound with one nut, altered, any fault that is a DQ factor (over/under size, DQ color, under/over bite, et) would automatically NOT be allowed to compete in nite hunts, water races, or field trials. Titles are deemed for breeding quality dog and if your dog can't pass breed standards there are no working titles. If your dog can't do the work, there are no show titles because if your dog doesn't fit breed standards, health screens, and work ability...it ain't fit to breed so it doesn't exist to the breed reg.

Now wouldn't that cause a quandary within the coonhound community?

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by starplott on 02-09-2012 08:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I disagree... Nature culls ruthlessly, its human intervention that screws up the process, and breeding to a standard is often the cause of the genetic issues that plague many breeds Look at the english bulldog as an example... breeding to the standard has created a breed that cant naturally even reproduce, cant give birth, cant hardly breath and good hips in the breed are nonexistant. this is an extreme example but hound breeders do the same thing to a lesser extent when they create a standard for type ,color, size and coat without regard to the effect on ability.

If you read what I wrote...THAT was EXACTLY my point! We don't let mother nature cull.

In the 70's and 80's if a dog had HD, it disappeared. Now breeders get into trouble for not placing a genetically defective dog in a 'pet' home. But place that dog of special needs (deaf, blind, etc) in a pet home...word travels real fast you breed defective dogs.

Humans have such a drive for stopping the natural culling process to save pups and to accept dogs not being able to do normal dog things or live a normal dog life.

Hard for mother nature to cull what humans are determined to save.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by toe cutter on 02-09-2012 09:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hey Preacher!!!
OR ONLY PERMIT LITTERS TO BE REGISTERED FROM PARENTS THAT ARE BOTH DUAL GRAND?!!!

If they did i would be hunting grade dogs.
I'm interested in buying a pup from the first all no titled litter.
the all grand sure ain't impressed me.

__________________
Randal Raper -
RED EAGLE MACK BRED WALKER DOGS

Posted by starplott on 02-09-2012 09:05 PM:

Re: Just keeps getting.....

quote:
Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
Better !!!!

Starplott is making sense here.

I don't necessarily agree about vet testing everything though.

Guys and Gals, no matter what you want to believe, these old crap eaters didn't get to where they are now without dedicated breeders using hard core selection and culling techniques.

When the bluetick breed seperated from the english, all the bluetick breeders of the time, made a sworn oath to not ship a puppy until it was three months old. Reason was so they could make sure it was going to fit the breed standard.

Ability?? Doesnt do a dam bit of good if the gyp can't milk or won't take care of her pups.

Ability?? Means nothing if the sire or dam can't reproduce their likeness.

Ability?? The guy wanting to breed a gyp ain't gonna forget about a shaggy haired, glass eyed duck footed "registered hound"no matter how good he looked in the woods.

I for one want the hard core bench show people to stick it out, cause we'll have something to breed back into after our ability only hounds start to get problems.

I know some serious foxhunters who have used show blood to get athleticism and vigor back in their ability only lines.

I also believe if you let off colors , bad feet and other serious defects in your breed slip past the culling block... You have no business breeding animals, let alone performance animals.

Foxhounds are not isolated there. See it with a lot of working dogs that have been bred for ability only. Some are really screwed because the breeds have become almost entirely separate. Look at a hunting bred Eng Settee vs the show bred. Look at the Brittany vs the French Brittany (total different breeds now). Cockers, springers, the list goes on.

Dealing w a lot of breeders overseas I hear a lot of 'americans breed their dogs just like themselves; fat, dumb, and lazy'

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by jackbob42 on 02-09-2012 09:51 PM:

Re: Re: Just keeps getting.....

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
....Dealing w a lot of breeders overseas I hear a lot of 'americans breed their dogs just like themselves; fat, dumb, and lazy'

Seems to me , they ruined some of the old hunting breeds before they ever got here , didn't they?

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

Posted by starplott on 02-09-2012 10:08 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Just keeps getting.....

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
Seems to me , they ruined some of the old hunting breeds before they ever got here , didn't they?

Your reply doesn't make any sense

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-09-2012 10:36 PM:

Re: Just keeps getting.....

quote:
Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
Better !!!!

Starplott is making sense here.

I don't necessarily agree about vet testing everything though.

Guys and Gals, no matter what you want to believe, these old crap eaters didn't get to where they are now without dedicated breeders using hard core selection and culling techniques.

When the bluetick breed seperated from the english, all the bluetick breeders of the time, made a sworn oath to not ship a puppy until it was three months old. Reason was so they could make sure it was going to fit the breed standard.

Ability?? Doesnt do a dam bit of good if the gyp can't milk or won't take care of her pup

Ability?? Means nothing if the sire or dam can't reproduce their likeness.

Ability?? The guy wanting to breed a gyp ain't gonna forget about a shaggy haired, glass eyed duck footed "registered hound"no matter how good he looked in the woods.

Would you agree that performance should be the number one consideration when breeding performance dogs?

I for one want the hard core bench show people to stick it out, cause we'll have something to breed back into after our ability only hounds start to get problems.

Why would breeding for ability create problems when the ones with a flaw that inhibits performance will not get bred?

I know some serious foxhunters who have used show blood to get athleticism and vigor back in their ability only lines.

why on earth would anyone be able to assume that dogs that arent bred to perform would add athleticism to a line of dogs that were bred to be athletes?

I live near a guy that has some of the winningiest field trial running walkers in the country and they are also some of the ugliest, poorly made,rangy,ribby,narrow chested suckers you have ever seen BUT i have seen them push a track on snow for 14 hours, stay sound and be ready to do it again the next day. So my conclusion is that you cant judge a hounds ability by its appearance.

I also believe if you let off colors , bad feet and other serious defects in your breed slip past the culling block... You have no business breeding animals, let alone performance animals.

What on earth can a dogs color have to do with its ability to perform?

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 02-09-2012 11:29 PM:

John...

Color has nothing to do with performance and ability!!

I was SIMPLY talking about "breed standards".

John are you trying to start an argument? I am just a simple minded plow boy, who likes to chase a possum or two on the weekends with my high powered ability first and foremost with no thought process involved in breeding decisions other than ability, two-bit registered crap eaters.

I also plan on getting some 6 gen. all Grand pups some day, but do not want a gr.show title on the papers, cause evryone knows if a dog can win on the bench it surely can't be much of a coondog, and up here we only breed by god coondogs, and then we let mother nature cull the tar out of the duds so we don't have to, then we tell all our buddies how much better our naturally culled, non show type dogs are better than everyone else's. Then one day all the coonhound worlds elite breeders, will come to us and ask how we are light years ahead in our programs, and we'll tell 'em " Boys breed coondog to coondog, don't worry if their feet are bad, mothers won't raise pups, dogs are silent, long shaggy hair, coke bottle nosed, cow hocked, over bitten, and sterile". And the masses will rush to our doors for some of this outstanding brood stock to continue with in the future. LOL! LOL makes everything better and not as sarcastic ..right??

Posted by wildbill on 02-09-2012 11:33 PM:

Re: Re: Just keeps getting.....

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
What on earth can a dogs color have to do with its ability to perform?

it dont,,
have you seen how many of the walkers are showing the black back hi-tan/white socks color of the B&t/walker mix from days gone by

or maybe someone is slipping some back into the mix again and just calling them throwbacks to the B&T mixed dogs of yesteryear that john wick called preacher dogs...

i dont think that color is throwing back into the mix from 10-12 gen's back as some try to make people think...

as for the conformation ?have you all really took a look at the breeds lately??

they have so much off breed in them ,ya have to be blind not to see it,,
all the great dane/bulldog blood in the walkers is easy to see unless its money out of your pocket ,then nobody see's it..

get real ,back in the day only certain lines of blueticks and B&T and bloodhounds were taller than 27"
and when you got anything else that was taller than normal ,you knew it was mixed blood..

now they have dogs that if dont get their show titles by 12 months they will have the ht. standards blowed

next time ya go to a show/hunt ,just take a walk around and look and see how many dogs have that something different about them,,but then again if you never saw what one looked like before the behind the barn stuff started you wouldnt know the difference

as the first post ask "TITLES TO TITLES ,WHY? "

EASY

its all about MONEY and selling PUPPYS

__________________
740-255-3087
william(wildbill)saylor
wildbills101@hotmail
wildbills101@yahoo
http://wildbills101.homestead.com/wildbills101.html

Posted by dual walkers on 02-10-2012 05:37 PM:

why...

wildbill i agree that its a money deal why they do it.. but we got to stop for its killing our breed.. heck i went hunting with a frien a couple nights ago.. that meet a guy from tenn.. and he had two young dogs with him less then a year old .. they made 14 trees in just over a hour.. nothing in either tree. not much tracking just setting down treeing .. they were from one of the hottest stud and dam crosses of today.. know thats not good for any breed.. we turned loose two just old country coon dogs that dont have that hight strung blood lines and treed a coon in the same area these other two had treed in all night and seen nothing.. whats that telling us that were doing wrong.. steve randolph..

__________________
CANYON CREEK KENNEL owner Steve Randolph, [home of top hunting and show treeing walker coon-hounds] THE PROUD HOME OF 2007 A.C.H.A. WORLD SHOW CHAMPION /UKC & AKC OPPOSITE SEX WORLD SHOW CHAMPION. 2006 BEST IN SHOW WINNER AT UKC, PREMIER. 2010 NATIONAL GRAND CHAMPION WALKER. 2010 OVERALL BROOD FEMALE WINNER.. AT AUTUMN OAKS.. [CCH.GRCH.HILLTOP LITTLE TAMMY]

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 02-10-2012 05:44 PM:

just got out of balance,dont have nothing to do with high strung
or conformation.

__________________
I don't run scared, I run to scare!

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 02-10-2012 07:17 PM:

Wait.......

Are you saying some young tree idiot bred bull crap made a bunch of empty trees????

This is poposturous!!!!

How can ability bred tree idiot lines of hounds be empty??

Mr. John Duemmer would you like to explain???

How about the other jack wads that posted ridiculous comments on here... Would Love to hear your side of the empty tree story...................

Let me quess, It's the handlers. Always is.

Or , Maybe it's hounds with such ability, they beat the coon to the tree?? I know this happens alot.

What about balance, mothering abilities, good conformation? Tracking capabilities??? Let's not talk about that it doesn't help ability.

Posted by wildbill on 02-10-2012 07:46 PM:

Re: why...

quote:
Originally posted by dual walkers
wildbill i agree that its a money deal why they do it.. but we got to stop for its killing our breed.. heck i went hunting with a frien a couple nights ago.. that meet a guy from tenn.. and he had two young dogs with him less then a year old .. they made 14 trees in just over a hour.. nothing in either tree. not much tracking just setting down treeing .. they were from one of the hottest stud and dam crosses of today.. know thats not good for any breed.. we turned loose two just old country coon dogs that dont have that hight strung blood lines and treed a coon in the same area these other two had treed in all night and seen nothing.. whats that telling us that were doing wrong.. steve randolph..

its all about money..

those tree happy pups will be grandnite in under a year with a good handler and they will be breeding and selling the same stuff from them also.....those titles sell puppys

i'll feed the ones that only tree 1 time with the meat than the ones that tree 20 times with nothing seen..

but the treehappy ones with titles sell more pups and a good handler can get other handlers to see eyes in half of them 20 trees as they will agree with the hope the others will misscall their dog and minus out and the ghost coon will help them with their titles..

thats why people are happy with the 50% tree dogs,,they make more points with them in the nitehunts,,thats why i dont care if a dogs got a title and only trust them if i know the dog/handler that earned it..

i was asked once when i bred 1 of my females to a fellas grandnite dog .

why did i breed her to the grandnite instead of the world champ dog as i could sell the pups easer if bred to the world champ.
both dogs was true coondogs

my reply was ,
i didnt care about the titles and was breeding to the male with the most blood that would line up with my female's blood to make me some natural coondogs.
...i was not breeding for titles or to sell pups...

the pup i got from that litter was treeing coon at 6 months old and at 13 months old was useing him as a check dog and training other pups with him..

you cant do that with titles to titles unless you got a top handler on $$ retainer$$

__________________
740-255-3087
william(wildbill)saylor
wildbills101@hotmail
wildbills101@yahoo
http://wildbills101.homestead.com/wildbills101.html

Posted by jackbob42 on 02-10-2012 09:52 PM:

Re: Wait.......

quote:
Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
Are you saying some young tree idiot bred bull crap made a bunch of empty trees????

This is poposturous!!!!

How can ability bred tree idiot lines of hounds be empty??

Mr. John Duemmer would you like to explain???

How about the other jack wads that posted ridiculous comments on here... Would Love to hear your side of the empty tree story...................

Let me quess, It's the handlers. Always is.

Or , Maybe it's hounds with such ability, they beat the coon to the tree?? I know this happens alot.

What about balance, mothering abilities, good conformation? Tracking capabilities??? Let's not talk about that it doesn't help ability.

Just because a guy says " they were from one of the hottest stud and dam crosses of today.." doesn't mean it's true.
I could tell the same story about a couple of GrCh dogs and you'd never know for sure whether that was true or not.
Talk about a "jack wad" ! LOL
Now , if a guy was to name the dogs and their owners , it MIGHT carry a little more weight. But , that won't happen. Nobody ever wants to name names , even if it really was true.

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-10-2012 10:31 PM:

Re: Wait.......

quote:
Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
Are you saying some young tree idiot bred bull crap made a bunch of empty trees????

This is poposturous!!!!

How can ability bred tree idiot lines of hounds be empty??

Mr. John Duemmer would you like to explain???

How about the other jack wads that posted ridiculous comments on here... Would Love to hear your side of the empty tree story...................

Let me quess, It's the handlers. Always is.

Or , Maybe it's hounds with such ability, they beat the coon to the tree?? I know this happens al

What about balance, mothering abilities, good conformation? Tracking capabilities??? Let's not talk about that it doesn't help ability.

Ok i will give it one more shot. Not sure you have the ability or desire to comprehend Mr. name caller but here it is.

The vast majority of coon hounds are kept for the purpose of hunting and the very best way to produce dogs that are going to fill that need is to breed the individuals that have proven they have the ability to tree coon. With me so far?

As soon as you start selecting individuals based on appearance as your breeding stock, the performance standard will suffer.

I have never said that titles alone should be the standard we use to choose the dogs with the best ability, but it is probably the only option for people that lack the means to travel and hunt with everything available.

Personally i have never seen a dogs color or conformation for that matter have much influence on its ability to tree coon. Years ago i owned a little 3 legged cur dog with 1 eye and i never saw another dog leave her behind on a coon track. Pretty much all the ingredients that are required to make an outstanding coon treeing machine are invisible to the human eye.

If it were possible to look at a dog and see its ability, it sure would make it alot easier to pick that good one out of the litter.

Theres a guy here near me that has some of the top, winningest running walker in the country and they are some of the ugliest creatures on the planet but i have seen them push a track on snow for 14 hours and be ready to do it again the next day. They are narrow chested, splay footed ,rangy looking and not particulary muscled looking, but after watching them perform you would have to agree they sure are athletes.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by dual walkers on 02-11-2012 02:43 AM:

hold on..

wait a minute jackbob... i was being a gentleman and not useing names so i would appreciate it if you dont call me a jack wad.. i will see you somewhere someday.. and we can discusse that.. but you want to know the sire is high x.. the dame is a all grand pedigree female out of cold sweat.. dont know either dog and dont fault either .. but all i know thee pips are .. just talked to david benett from here in ky he ownes them on the phone he said they are 8 months old.. not pleased with them at all. thats all i know about them.. other then he gave over 1000.00 for both of them.. sad thats what we were talking about titles and why we do it.. all because some of us will give that big money to have those titles on our papers.. some think that cause they have all those titles that they can buy pups and they are automaticly going to run and tree coons.. sad story cause its not going to always happen.. my friend we went with has a 3 year old local breed dog.. and i was hunting a 2 tear old female that has no grand nite dogs in fer pedigree and shes not the best dog ive ever hunted but she will drive a track and tree a coon.... dont take all nite either.. .. i competion hunted for three top breeders in the 90s and early 2000 tell i got heart trouble and just cant keep up any more with these younger guys.. i know what it takes to win in the hunts.. a pleasure dog ,, and competion dog are toadly two differant dogs. and you have to be a slick rule useing handler to win hunt after hunt .. been there and done that.. im a simple pleasure hunter know.. enjoy it more then i ever did comp. hunting.. it causes enemenys and gives you a head ach.. sorry but thats just the way it is .. didnt mean to step on anyones toes.. just tell it like it is..

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 02-11-2012 03:30 AM:

john duemmer..

Who has the running dogs you speak of?

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-11-2012 03:35 AM:

Guys name is Dan Bennett.

Now i gotta say sorry Dan for callin your dogs ugly, but man them muts can push a yote.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 02-11-2012 03:38 AM:

Have never heard of him, and we run most of the big hunts.

Probably has some good hounds, but was under the impression he left his back yard.

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-11-2012 03:47 AM:

He has a pen here in NY. I know he travels quite a bunch, do you guys come east much.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 02-11-2012 03:52 AM:

No , don't know him, but I know shane bonavita brought alot of Illinois and southern bred hounds up north, maybe some of them.

Pretty sure his hounds must be outsiders, cause most all the fox/coyote field trialers I know, breed for excellent feet/muscle tone and heads. Just simply, gotta have it.

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-11-2012 04:14 AM:

Think hes only been at itabout 5 years but i know he has waiting lists for his pups at about 1,000 a pop. He used to be a coonhunter but got into the running dogs. I bought his last coondog.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by jackbob42 on 02-11-2012 04:47 AM:

Re: hold on..

quote:
Originally posted by dual walkers
wait a minute jackbob... i was being a gentleman and not useing names so i would appreciate it if you dont call me a jack wad....

Wasn't talking about you.
Sorry if it sounded that way.

Kinda hard to believe that you would expect 8 month old puppies to be any kind of a coon dog though. No matter what their breeding was.

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

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