UKC Forums - Should silent dogs be scratched?

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-- Should silent dogs be scratched? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=456734)

Posted by michigancooner on 10-19-2011 11:47 PM:

amazingcursouth,

That is why the bench shows and nite hunts are seperate, many terrific show dogs can't tree a coon, and many outstanding cooners aren't built well enough to earn a bench title. A dog in a show is being judged on it's conformation, where as a dog in a nite hunt is being judged on it's ability to tree coons. If you reverse what you said, if you tried putting some of these GRNITECH's on the bench they would not make the cut, so should they be stripped of they're hunt titles? Absolutley not. That is why they are seperate. I have never shown a dog and don't know if I will, I breed and look for more hunt all the way. If the breed standard of a hound requires that it gives SOME mouth on track, then UKC has every right to eliminate dogs from hunts (not shows) that do not meet that particular requirement. Until someone changes the standard to say it's ok for a hound to not ever give a bark on track, I imagine the rule will stay this way.

Posted by gfults on 10-19-2011 11:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
Maybe we should just leave all the dogs at home, head out with a spot light and just see how many coon we can find??? If we're not coon hunting with hounds, to listen to them run, then why are we doing it?

It seems like the whole world is in a hurry for some reason. We need to tree and get treed now! We need to get the coon and get on... didn't we used to coon hunt for relaxation?

Maybe someone other than me is making millions off of coon hides and competition hunts, and that's why they're in such a hurry to just get treed.

JMO

David Schmidt

99% of the people I know coon hunt to tree coons! Thats why they call it coon hunting. If all you wanna do is listen to a race, go get you some fox hounds or a coon hound that wont tree but loves to run deer! Explain to me the down side to getting treed quick and having the coon to boot!!! Silent dog or babbler, the one that can get treed the quickest without sacrificing accuracy, is gonna be the best dog. Lifes too short to settle with mediocre. Why not do your best to hunt the best dog that you can find and afford?? If you wanna coon hunt and relax, then go pleasure huntin! This thread is about silent dogs being scratched in COMPETITION hunts. JMO

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-19-2011 11:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
well then, take all them purty dogs off the bench and make them show you a coon. Many of them my be silent. if they are strip their titles from the bench. they don't meet the standard.

Yep I have allways said they should have to prove themselves in the woods before you worry what they look like.

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Posted by gfults on 10-19-2011 11:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RHK
im a coonhunter not a coon chaser. i love my dogs more than everything but my kids and my smokin hot wife. ive been in very few competitions for this reason... junk dogs win too much and people cheat. the best coondogs in this country arent on the ukc website or in american cooner. they are owned by hillbillies and country boys that hunt because they love it. if its a registered coonhound it should be able to hunt with registered coonhounds. the coon up the tree is all that matters. theres always a dog that opens as soon as it hits the timber anyways. its lying but it doesnt get scratched....boy it sure sounds good though.

Um excuse me, but did you say you had a smokin hot wife?? Photos??

just jokin

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Posted by Lakeland Kennel on 10-19-2011 11:54 PM:

There are some strains of English that are know to throw more silent dogs than some strains of Curs. And, I get a lot of English people hopping mad when I point out that a very popular English that was originally registered as a Walker was silent as told to me by the guy that won big time with the dog. I don't know how a silent dog could have been single registered, the breed standards clearly call for an open mouth, but lots of English breeders swear by the dog instead of swearing at him.

I had a silent Mt Cur that had the meat on the outside almost every time he treed. I saw him put it on some really good hounds at times. Other times, the hounds treed coon he didn't know was in the woods.

I have some very tight Curs I hunt in places I would get in trouble if I hunted hounds. The neighbors just think their neighbors house dog is barking. I have permission to hunt but that doesn't stop some folks from raising a ruckus.

Why should Curs be allowed to compete with hounds?

Anyone that really knows very much about coon dogs knows you can cross some of the wide hunting bird dogs with a tree minded hound and get a silent dog that will win a lot of competition hunts. Some of the resulting pups will look full hound. That is where a lot of your tight dogs come from, a bird dog cross.

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Posted by gfults on 10-19-2011 11:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
I have been in this game a loooong time, and i comp hunted for good many years. But you got alot of guys thats been hunting 5 to 10 years and all they have been drilled is winning the hunts. First strike first tree or i dont feed them. If they really ever owned a sure nuff coon dog they would change their minds. Im not talking about a dog that will tree a coon, im talking about a COON DOG. As for the silent hounds go, Smiths Hardtime Rocky, did not open much at all on track. He won the purina race in 88 or 89. Mundo, Radar were really really tight on the ground and Radar won the world hunt. Im not saying silent dogs are better, but they do tend to be more accurate and faster. An independent tight mouth dog with blister a full open dog 8 out of 10 hunts.

Whats the point of going to a competition hunt if you dont go to win??

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Posted by greg stull on 10-20-2011 12:04 AM:

I HAVE A MALE THE IS 6 Y OLD THAT GIVES PLENTY OF MOUTH ON TRACK UNLESS HE IS WITH COMPANY. THERE IS NO ? THAT HE DOES THIS SO THE ME TOOS WILL NOT JOIN HIM. HE LIKES TO BE ALONE.

Posted by WORMY#1 on 10-20-2011 12:10 AM:

A TREE HOUND, NOT A HOW LITTLE OR HOW MUCH MOUTH THEY GIVE ON THE GROUND HOUND. COONS CLIMB SO TREEING IS THE NAME OF THE GAME, I PERSONALLY LIKE DRAWING A TIGHT MOUTH DOG, NOW I LIKE TO HUNT A OPEN MOUTH DOG, BUT THATS JMO. NO I DONT THINK A SILENT DOG SHOULD BE SCRATCHED,

Posted by L ALLEN on 10-20-2011 12:19 AM:

coon

dog is waht iam looking for i think that rule needs throwed out dont relly matter how much mouth they give aslong there are 2 looking down jmo

Posted by RHK on 10-20-2011 12:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
Um excuse me, but did you say you had a smokin hot wife?? Photos?? just jokin

HAHA! i think shes pretty enough! i like all my teeth quite a bit so i cant do pics! i really enjoy to have a good time and joke with people. there seems to be a lot of good guys on here. im glad i found this site because id talk about dogs all day,and hunt every night if i could!

Posted by davery on 10-20-2011 12:55 AM:

Well it goes to show that we have got champion dogs that don't open on track,somebody in the judging game miss out on the rules,now we ended up with a bunch of silent dogs that should have had better judge put on them.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-20-2011 01:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
Whats the point of going to a competition hunt if you dont go to win??

To have fun.............winning is just a plus every now and then when lady luck is on your side.

Posted by amazingcursouth on 10-20-2011 01:49 AM:

the coon hound standards for the breed goes for all breeds. they have standards of conformation, height, ear length etc. Don't try to tell me a separate set of standards for COON TREEING DOGs and BENCH DOGS. if they are within that breed they fall under their standards. A dog should be bred for conformation as well as performance in the woods. i love a good looking hound that can show and like watching people show them. but they should have to show they can do what they were bred to do...........TREE COON.

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Posted by l.lyle on 10-20-2011 02:08 AM:

If I could breed a dog that had big old coons feet I would. That would not fit the breed standards. Coons seem to get around good in the marsh where I hunt. They would have to open though. It would be mighty boring listening to marshgrass crunching as little far as you could hear that for an hour or two LOL.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-20-2011 02:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
99% of the people I know coon hunt to tree coons! Thats why they call it coon hunting. If all you wanna do is listen to a race, go get you some fox hounds or a coon hound that wont tree but loves to run deer! Explain to me the down side to getting treed quick and having the coon to boot!!! Silent dog or babbler, the one that can get treed the quickest without sacrificing accuracy, is gonna be the best dog. Lifes too short to settle with mediocre. Why not do your best to hunt the best dog that you can find and afford?? If you wanna coon hunt and relax, then go pleasure huntin! This thread is about silent dogs being scratched in COMPETITION hunts. JMO

I couldn't disagree more... show me a coonhound that doesn't have several degreed dogs somewhere in it's pedigree, and I'll believe there's a separation between competition events and coon hounds in general. But the fact is that 99% of our dogs are directly impacted by what wins hunts and shows. (probably a little more so, by hunts). I know this, and UKC knows this, which is why they have made their best attempt to ensure the best all around hound wins hunts. That's why squirrel hunts only have tree points and coon hunts have strike and tree points.

And I think we've already clearly made the point that silent dogs will or should be scratched, in competition hunts, and it would appear that there are many itching to do just that! So hounds that don't open on track as they should, which I happen to enjoy listening to, will be scratched and not deemed the "best dog". So according to the rules, they're not the best, and according to my personal opinion they aren't the best "hound".

And once again, someone is putting words into my mouth. I never said I didn't want to tree a lot of coons, and quite frankly I do. And I never said a hound had to be slow, and personally I hate listening to a ground-pounder as well, but they do need to open.

David Schmidt

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-20-2011 02:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
I couldn't disagree more... show me a coonhound that doesn't have several degreed dogs somewhere in it's pedigree, and I'll believe there's a separation between competition events and coon hounds in general. But the fact is that 99% of our dogs are directly impacted by what wins hunts and shows. (probably a little more so, by hunts). I know this, and UKC knows this, which is why they have made their best attempt to ensure the best all around hound wins hunts. That's why squirrel hunts only have tree points and coon hunts have strike and tree points.

And I think we've already clearly made the point that silent dogs will or should be scratched, in competition hunts, and it would appear that there are many itching to do just that! So hounds that don't open on track as they should, which I happen to enjoy listening to, will be scratched and not deemed the "best dog". So according to the rules, they're not the best, and according to my personal opinion they aren't the best "hound".

And once again, someone is putting words into my mouth. I never said I didn't want to tree a lot of coons, and quite frankly I do. And I never said a hound had to be slow, and personally I hate listening to a ground-pounder as well, but they do need to open.

David Schmidt

Good post Mr. Schmidt

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-20-2011 02:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
If I could breed a dog that had big old coons feet I would. That would not fit the breed standards. Coons seem to get around good in the marsh where I hunt. They would have to open though. It would be mighty boring listening to marshgrass crunching as little far as you could hear that for an hour or two LOL.

Yea I have never figured out the reason they have to have the cat feet. They don't get around in the mud as well or swim as well as a web or bigger footed dog. I know a small foot doesn't get torn up in the briers and things but that is just in parts of the country. Don't know why they would have a standard on them like that. Around here one is about as handy as the other. We have wet land and thick stuff in Okla.

Posted by l.lyle on 10-20-2011 02:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
99% of the people I know coon hunt to tree coons!. If all you wanna do is listen to a race, go get you some fox hounds or a coon hound that wont tree but loves to run deer! Explain to me the down side to getting treed quick and having the coon to boot!!! This thread is about silent dogs being scratched in COMPETITION hunts. JMO

I can't stand a deer chaser because they get out of hearing which means you can't hear them which means they might as well be silent.

Foxes don't generally tree so there is no climax to the hunt. But I do like a fox chase round and round and you can tell what dogs are driving and what dogs are tagging along .

I never heard of fox dogs ground pounding and i couldn't stand for that in a coondog. I live for the few exceptional nights that a coon will run like a fox and cover ground. I can evaluate my own pack of dogs better than anything else when that happens .

I know of a comp hunter that has won the Grand American that would shoot his favorite bucket coon if it ran 400 yards before it treed. He wanted them to climb and climb right now. Coons generally are lazy to me. They either hear a dog open on their trail or a dog in the leaves behind them and up a tree they go. I kill every one of them wwith no remorse but really hate to kill a coon that gave me a fox type of race. But, to each his own I reckon.

Posted by 8hawg on 10-20-2011 02:53 AM:

If silent dogs are to be scratched, then the "me too" and babblers need banned for life.JMO.

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 10-20-2011 02:59 AM:

I'll pray for all my brothers out there that only want to see the meat on the limb and seem to feel its not important how ole silent got there, but what is important is that he got there first.

You see, those of you that think that way have completely been thrown for a loop when it comes to understanding the intent of our founding fathers that originally developed the night hunt (HONOR) rules.

You see it was their intent to develop a set of rules that payed respect to the coon being treed as much as it did to developing a Hound, (using hound traits) that could consistently tree a coon while giving that coon a SPORTING chance to fool the hound and get away.

That is why it is required for a hound to open on track, so that the coon will know the hound is chasing it, and give that coon a fair chance to pull some tricks to fool the hound before the hound can catch it. Its not very sporting to use the SUPRISE attack of a silent trailer to force the coon up the nearest tree before it even known the hound is in pursuit.

That would be like some guy coming up and sucker punching you right in the nose and then tell you he wants to fight. Not very sporting but yes it is effective in giving you the advantage in winning the fight.

For all you young Whipper Snappers the term I am referring to are (THE SPORTING RULES OF A FAIR CHASE) I am sure many (if not all hunters under the age of 40) have never heard of this term but that is why a Hound is required to open on track.

If you still don't understand why a hound is required to open then I don't think I can do anything more to help you understand why the silent trait is such a significant fault.

Good Luck to you all and enjoy your season no matter what type dog you like to follow!!

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-20-2011 03:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
I can't stand a deer chaser because they get out of hearing which means you can't hear them which means they might as well be silent.

Foxes don't generally tree so there is no climax to the hunt. But I do like a fox chase round and round and you can tell what dogs are driving and what dogs are tagging along .

I never heard of fox dogs ground pounding and i couldn't stand for that in a coondog. I live for the few exceptional nights that a coon will run like a fox and cover ground. I can evaluate my own pack of dogs better than anything else when that happens .

I know of a comp hunter that has won the Grand American that would shoot his favorite bucket coon if it ran 400 yards before it treed. He wanted them to climb and climb right now. Coons generally are lazy to me. They either hear a dog open on their trail or a dog in the leaves behind them and up a tree they go. I kill every one of them wwith no remorse but really hate to kill a coon that gave me a fox type of race. But, to each his own I reckon.

Me too. a long running smart coon is hard to find. They learn the same way the dogs do though. I some times leash up the dogs off the tree and take them back in the direction they came from. Then go back to the tree and squall the coon out. Then amke a half circle around the tree and put them on the same coon again. They run further the second time and it doesn't loosen the dog up on the tree like rerunning them from the tree.

Posted by Blue Iron on 10-20-2011 03:04 AM:

Wow what a thread.

I don't want a silent dog but I don't want one that does much barking.

To me a tighter mouth dog trees more coons faster and that's my goal, to tree the most coons in the shortest amount of time possible. I pleasure hunt first and competition hunt second but still like a dog to tree coons FAST. If I wanted to hear a bunch of barking I'd buy a pack of beagles.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 10-20-2011 03:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
Wow what a thread.

I don't want a silent dog but I don't want one that does much barking.

To me a tighter mouth dog trees more coons faster and that's my goal, to tree the most coons in the shortest amount of time possible. I pleasure hunt first and competition hunt second but still like a dog to tree coons FAST. If I wanted to hear a bunch of barking I'd buy a pack of beagles.

Must be a Ga thang cause Im the same way.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-20-2011 03:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
Wow what a thread.

. If I wanted to hear a bunch of barking I'd buy a pack of beagles.

And if all we wanted is to tree we would go squirrel hunting. but coon hounds are supose to do both. That doesn't mean they have to be slow about it. Tracking conditions and type of coon is what determins track speed. That and quality of hound. Now if that is all your hound can do is run threw the woods till it finds a hot track and put it up quick then that is what it has to do. But in thin coon a hound like that is going to have problems. It does make a dog look fast when the track isn't over 100 yards long when it strikes the coon.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-20-2011 03:28 AM:

Grady Jarvis and Dave Mayles, god bless you!

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