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-- poll on crossbreeds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=31786)

Re: Poll on Cross Breeds

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Originally posted by JOE H BROOKS
Shetler's Sonny Boy, the sire of Finley River Chief, Johnson's Banjo, just a couple of hounds that go back to cross bred mutts, as some narrow minded people, would say. Lester Nance's White River King, goes back to a black&tan female and others. Single registered hounds, or dogs that go back to them, Carolinia Casey, acha world hunt winner 68, 69 and placed in 4 of the world hunts, his mother was, single registered. Katy's Rowdy, another acha world hunt winner, went back to Mountain Music Blue and Blaze. There's a whole lot of big name dogs, that go back to cross bred hounds, why that lady in Texas, might have some in her kennel and don't know it. If everybody on this board was hunting a world class, coon hound, then there wouldn't be any need to improve their stock, would there ? And to hear some of them talk, you'd think, that they already had it all, till you go hunt, with them. Well you can't tell some people anything, cause they already know it all, but for the rest of us, we're still learning, still trying.

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CH NITECH HILLS ISLAND CREEK SCOUT(Gone but never forgotten)
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Re: Re: Why post this redundant question on this board?

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Originally posted by Timber Hill
You know mam in all due respect I really think you should stick to writing novels and showing dogs because I don't think you would reconize a coon dog if you saw one.Most hunters do not dump dogs in the shelters and dog pounds if they need to be culled.Maybe your next Novel could be titled Genetic Mud.

Jim Wigley

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Our kennel is the home of PKC CH UKC GRNITECH NKC NITECH Hard Rock Nail and PKC CH UKC NITECH Shotgun Dixie!

I've seen several references to "alligators" in this thread. This is a new term to me.... can someone give me a definition?

GOT CROSS BRED DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK

THE POLL SAID IT ALL. ONE DOG IN MIND TN.HARD ROCK UKC AND AKC CALL HIM BLACK AND TAN,BUT IS HE?NO,HE IS HALF WALKER HALF BLACK AND TAN I CALL HIM CROSS BRED.STOP LIEING OR MISLEADING YOURSELF IF YOU THINK FOR ONCE HE'S A BLACK AND TAN MORE REASON TO CALL HIM WHAT HE RELLY IS(CROSS BRED).

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cross breed is ok but I DONT AGREE WITH SINGLE REG.THEM AS
ONE BREED OR THE OTHER THEY SHOULD BE REG AS CROSSBREED
ALL OFFSPRING SHOULD CARRY CROSSBREED

Cross Bred Hounds

The funny thing about the night hunts, is orginally they were for keeping the dogs in condition, in the off season, visiting with your fellow hunters, until the kill season came in again. And now it's just backwards, we breed dogs, for the night hunts, not for hunting in the winter time, they foot race to the woods, they tree a tree, with nothing in it. We don't want them leaveing the tree, for any reason, if another dog, is eating them up, that's what we call an (alligator). Folks like to line breed them fox dogs, cause they all go back to fox dogs, english, walker, black&tan, redbone, blueticks, i left out plotts, cause they were bred for stag hounds. Folks use to breed the best to the best, walker to black&tan, redbone + black&tan, and they had better winter time coon dogs. I had bought some old mountain music, american cooner, magazines, they have some real neat pictures, of some of those registered mutts, that everybody has now. Why the redbones, black&tans, had white feet, white chests, walkers, use to be all ticked up, it didn't keep none of them from treeing coons in the winter time. I"ve got an old red female that's a nice dog and i'm going to cross her with a black&tan, if she ever comes in heat. And there are very few registered dogs, that can run with her in the beans and nobody knows who her daddy is. It don't stop her from treeing coons and for some reason little red just don't seem to care, that she don't have any papers.

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J.B.

JOE BROOKS

GREAT POST,THERE IS A LOT OF TRUTH ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.

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Josepheobryan@gmail.com

lol

TO EACH HIS OWN !

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Dave Trumbo II
Kouts, IN
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Home of :
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when HALF BRED JESSI wins the world hunt this weekend,you fellas are going to be PI$$ED OFF!! if you didnt know,she is bluetick-walker.

As far as whether they are ever allowed in UKC is something I dont know the answer to and its not my place to decide! Thats all up to UKC! Every business, organization,government and etc. has to have its own rules and regulations to go by. Whatever decision? is their own and I respect them for it. Theirs other registries that do allow it, its kind of a Ford verses Chevrolet verses Dodge thing. ( LOL) I will agree that as far as my hunting experience goes Bar-none the best dog I've ever seen from head to toe and from strike to tree was a gyp whose SIRE was a bluetick male and their DAM was half walker and black and tan gyp......She was the best I've ever hunted with and that was probably 20 years ago But like all litters of pups she might have just been a lucky fluke who's to say? . As an earlier post stated : to each his/her own. Thanks, Chris

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CIRRENT:
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VIRGINIA JUNK YARD BLUE
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All my Blue hounds have Sparetime Spanky blood in their veins..My Choice....I like it ! My TWs could use some of it
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Present :

GRNITECH Skuna River Knock Em Out John
Skuna River Crazy Train
Skuna River Carolina Katy Daly
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Re: Re: Why post this redundant question on this board?

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Originally posted by bearhunter
Skyblu,where do I start?First 5 0f the 6 breed asos. and UKC allows crossbreeds.You ever heard of single registration?Second,crossbreeding not only works for the big game hunter,it works for coon dogs too.Even if you dont agree with people that cross breed a lesson can be learned from their breeding practices.Dont breed for the titles,breed the best to the best.
Third, in this post and the other on this subject several of the great older dogs of a few of the breeds have been mentioned,they were not what you call full blooded.Are you so narrow minded that you dont think any pure breed cant be improved on?
I will agree with your statement do your homework before you breed.But the problem with that is to most the homework is find the dog with the most titles and titled dogs behind it and breed.With that reasoning it comes down to MONEY not producing a good dog.
Take a look at the picture below and tell me what breeding this dog is.Hes 18 months old and will put it on a lot of you so called titled pure bred dogs.And as you can see meets the walker standard right well.

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Steve Beson
Pinconning MI

Re: GOT CROSS BRED DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK

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Originally posted by Joe O'Bryan
THE POLL SAID IT ALL. ONE DOG IN MIND TN.HARD ROCK UKC AND AKC CALL HIM BLACK AND TAN,BUT IS HE?NO,HE IS HALF WALKER HALF BLACK AND TAN I CALL HIM CROSS BRED.STOP LIEING OR MISLEADING YOURSELF IF YOU THINK FOR ONCE HE'S A BLACK AND TAN MORE REASON TO CALL HIM WHAT HE RELLY IS(CROSS BRED).

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GOING HUNTING IF IT GETS DARK
(502)302-2446
Josepheobryan@gmail.com

Joe Brooks said it all!!!

If you're a coonhunter, first and foremost, you want a COON DOG!!! If you're a Coonhunter, and have a top-notch COON DOG, it doesn't matter what it's out of.

When we start talking about titles, pedigrees, pure-breds, cross-breds, etc. , we're talking more about marketing dogs than we are about coonhunting and COONDOGS.

If all you wanted to do was coonhunt with a top-notch COONDOG, you wouldn't care about papers, titles, or breed purity. Those things only come into play when you're looking at marketing or promotional aspects.

I'd rather spend my time in the woods with a COON DOG (regardless of ancestry) than a mediocre hound whose owner wants to keep telling me what hunts he's won, how great his ancestors are, etc.

honalieh, I agree with you & Joe B.

Don't you just love it when they break out those big OLE PICTURE ALBUMS, full of pictures & Registration Papers. Just give me a COONHOUND, no matter what COLOR IT IS, & I'll be one happy guy.

I STILL LIKE TO KID THE "SHEEP" ABOUT HIS BOO-TICKS THOUGH.

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John

CUTLER, AMERICA

Good judgement, is something that you get from using bad judgement.--Will Rogers

if your doing it for yourself and just to get some nice hide dogs its up to you i have seen some mutts tree alot of coon but i would rather stick to my registerd dogs they say papers dont tree coon and i agree but they do sell pups.

Cross Bred Hounds

So you'd rather stick to your registered mutts, cause if you go back, far enough, that's what you'll find. The black&tan's were the first breed to be registered, that was around 1900, so were did all these walker, english, bluetick, plott, red bone come from? Were did those registered black&tan's come from, if they only started registering them in 1900 and they were the first breed of coon hounds, to be registered, they just started with your mutts. If everybody is happy with their go through the country, slick treeing mutts, then i'm happy for them, but you could have better. And the whole country is full of registered puppys, if every body is happy, with their mutts, then why would you raise something you don't need?

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J.B.

I am a walker person through and through. But our best dog is a blue/walker. Does that mean that I will breed him in the future. No, but he is cat and coon catching machine. I like all my PR Walkers with their great bloodlines, but that doesn't make them be able to put something in a tree.

I know I have posted to this before.

Yet this is an old thread and my opinions are still the same. I have no problem with crossbreeding if that is what one desires and most importantly one has a goal in mind when the cross is made. As to whether this or any registry should register them is a totally different arguement. Registries are set up for record keeping purposes. The requirements are totally up to the owners and users of that registry. It could be for the sole sake of ensuring purity within the breed is maintained or it could be for accurate record keeping during the development of a breed. Maybe developing a specific breed is not even considered but merely a requirement to record and show the background of the animals in question.
Whether this registry should record the pedigrees of mixed bred hounds I am of mixed opinions. Yes it would be nice to see this registry offer as a service a record keeping format that would serve as some sort of record of a cross bred hound's lineage. As UKC pedigrees serve somewhat as a marketing tool and bill of sale/title it would be very useful for these hounds to be registered. What I can not see nor want is for these crossbred pedigrees to be equal to purebred pedigrees. This is not to sound elitist or in any way offputting but as I said earlier an UKC pedigree has marketing value and to make a crossbred the equal of a purebred would only devalue the purebred. The purebred hound IMO must be protected at all costs. Not for the sake of purity's sake but as a repository of the genetic materials that make up the breed. Were we to make the crossbred the equal of the purebred then what would be the incentive to maintain a pure stock of genetic material. Remember the crossbreds would be drawn from this stock of pure genetic material and the pure stock should be maintained seperate as a future resource.
It is very possible that by drawing from various pure stocks one may acheive one's goal of creating the better mousetrap by recombining the genetic materials of different pure stocks. When this goal is reached it would then be possible through selective breeding to fix this recombination into it's own pure stock and have in effect created a new breed. I think this is a very laudable goal and should be taken under consideration by the registry.
In otherwords I recommend that UKC offer pedigrees on crossbred hounds that are derived from crosses of UKC registered dogs (for a certain fee of course). These pedigrees should be differentiated from a regular purebred pedigree and would be for the sole purpose of record keeping and marketing. UKC should also take into consideration that at a future date some of these crosses may develop into their own phenotype with the potential to become a breed in their own right. I believe UKC already has an excellent system in place to deal with that in their breed associations. All it would take is for the potential crossbred to purebred transition to take place would be for enough fanciers to join together to establish the crossbred into a pure genetic phenotype. At that time the crossbred could apply for full breed status.
It is also possible that the pure breds could benefit from crossbreds. Most all purebreds have single registry and could if they so choose single register any of the potential crossbreds adding to their own breed fresh and invigorating genetic material. This might be very important should the gene pool of a particular breed become stagnant or closely inbred.
The downsides that I fear are things that should worry any fancier of purebred animals. As a breeder one should have goals and the most sound way to acheive those goals are by careful, thoughtful decisions not by chance or gamble. By working within a breed rather than crossbreeding you are working with known quantities. Crossbreeding by it's very nature introduces many variables. While both sire and dam may be known quantities by the very nature of being of seperate breeds there is an element of the unknown added. As in all things there are no guarantees even within a purebred cross. How much more so in a crossbred is unknown. By placing restrictions upon breeders by refusing to register crossbreds the registries have emplaced some measure of control over the quality of the the dogs they register. While not absolute it does remove one level of chance in the quality of animal they are known for. Also a crossbred breeder without a breed association would be without guidelines set down by their fellow breeders. The registry that opens the door to crossbred registration could be opening a pandora's box of experimentation with the resulting devaluation of all they have strived to accomplish with their purebred registry.
So while I still believe that UKC should move in the direction of registering crossbreds it should be done with very careful thought with specific guidelines in place to protect the purebreds. If the allowance of crossbreeding is done right it could open great opportunities for breeders and fanciers to devolop great new strains and breeds of animals. If done solely for the sake of experimentation or just to be different then it could be detrimental.
I really think this thread is not so much about registering crossbreds as it is about hunting crossbreds. Here to me is the crux of the issue. What good is registering a crossbred if it is not allowed to compete against purebreds. How can one hope to establish goals within a breeding program if there is not an available measuring stick to judge the performance of a crossbred. What really needs to be asked then is there a need for crossbreeding. I say yes there should always be room for those who ask questions and are willing to try something different yet we must not let the inquisitive among us cause us to lose the focus of our purebreds.

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David R McLeod
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"I'm in the Heart of Dixie, Dixie's in the heart of me".

quote:
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Originally posted by JiM
....THANK GOD FOR BENCH SHOWS!!!!!!! Anything that keeps women and crybabies out of the woods has my support.
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Cross Bred Hounds

Actually some of the walker dog roots, came from blue ticks, that's why, you some times get a blue tick litter of pups, that are black and white, no ticks. The red ticks also came from the blue tick breed and some of the english, i won't say all, cause, some of them came, from the walker breed. I see a lot of in breeding, line breeding, and people start haveing problems, in their dogs, parrot mouth, no heat cycle, dogs, found dead in pen at 3 yr. old, 8 yr. old, remember, you get the bad, defects, just as well, as the good. The old dogs of years past use to live longer, 15 to 16 years, we are lucky, today if they are alive at 11 years of age. I prefer to use a total out cross, black&tan to walker, i still try to breed, for what is lacking, in the female or male, if i have a dog that goes too hard, i'll bred to a female, that hunts close, that takes, pressure, stays hooked, if one is a little trashy, i'll bred something clean, in there.

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J.B.

CROSS BRED

GOT CROSS BRED? DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK!

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thoughts

Really if you think about most all coondogs or bear dogs were cross bred in the beginning thats how must of this started.

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Go Crossbreds Go. Just saw tonight where " Hard Rock" B&T x Walker won another 12,000 last night.

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Burr Oak

Jim, you talking about the Pro Showcase? I think they split....$3000.00 apiece.

I did not know they split.I just heard Hard Rock was the winner.Wow that makes twice in my life I was wrong.LOL LOL

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Burr Oak

Re: Cross Bred Hounds

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Originally posted by JOE H BROOKS
Actually some of the walker dog roots, came from blue ticks, that's why, you some times get a blue tick litter of pups, that are black and white, no ticks. The red ticks also came from the blue tick breed and some of the english, i won't say all, cause, some of them came, from the walker breed. I see a lot of in breeding, line breeding, and people start haveing problems, in their dogs, parrot mouth, no heat cycle, dogs, found dead in pen at 3 yr. old, 8 yr. old, remember, you get the bad, defects, just as well, as the good. The old dogs of years past use to live longer, 15 to 16 years, we are lucky, today if they are alive at 11 years of age. I prefer to use a total out cross, black&tan to walker, i still try to breed, for what is lacking, in the female or male, if i have a dog that goes too hard, i'll bred to a female, that hunts close, that takes, pressure, stays hooked, if one is a little trashy, i'll bred something clean, in there.

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