UKC Forums - What rule???

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Posted by bloxhdc on 09-29-2021 03:03 AM:

Transparency!!!!

Posted by houndsound on 09-29-2021 04:46 AM:

Re: houndsound

quote:
Originally posted by garminguru
houndsound, as a non nite hunter, I assure you, my head is spinning too!

Yeah, I've yet to understand what the purpose of the rule is... best guess I've heard is that it could benefit the other dog on the 8 minute clock....

Which if that is the purpose.... makes the scratch seem really crazy... scratching dog A because the handler did something that could only benefit dog B... and even though it was caught and had zero chance of effecting anything? Weird... seems like it is placing more importance of rule manipulation than the hound work.

BUT... I'm smart enough to know there is more I don't know than what I do know. UKC will eventually make a statement.. until then I understand this is all speculation. I was very very very surprised to hear something as serious as scratching can be done when it is not very cleary stated.

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Posted by Night Shift on 09-29-2021 12:59 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Elvis, now your getting to the version that I heard. The judge didn't use the words turn loose. But said. We are Good. Mistaken by the handler to mean, Turn Loose. Then when corrected by the judge with no-no-no. Dog caught in a few steps. If that is the truth and I wasn't there. That shouldn't cost a man a World Championship.

Bruce I think maybe the judge told him we’ll walk up on the hill and start the 8. Then asked if he was good as In walked far enough. Put a minute rule in UKC and this confusion never happens. Personally I believe both the judge and Jerald. Judge asks are you good the handler hears you’re good. I think it still boils down to the responsibility of the handler to make sure he can turn loose. Everyone knows the rule if you don’t then you haven’t comp hunted long enough. I’ve asked several times on casts did you say I could cut loose just to clarify. It’s not a no harm no foul call good lord how many people have lost casts because of forgetting a minus or a plus. It’s the handlers responsibility. JMO

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Posted by Dogwhisper on 09-29-2021 01:54 PM:

Do away w/the 8 min. "leash lock" rule.
Once a tree has been scored that dog(s) ought to be turned loose immediately....the handler should be informing the judge/cast "hey i'm turning loose" no minute,no walking a reasonable distance ....cuttm from the tree.....unless timeout will be called........
And strike points ought to be opened back up to dog(s) cast off a scored tree...not going in for next available .
Take away the recast option.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 09-29-2021 02:09 PM:

Originally posted by benderb4
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Mr Gingerich, I know that you are back with us now. Are you not going to give us UKC's official ruling? If you turn your dog loose or if you handle your dog without the judge's permission, can he scratch you?
Or is this one of those "grey areas" with a lot of maybe yes's and maybe no's.

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Re: Re-Cast situation question

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Jennings
Dogs A, B, C, and D are struck in and A, B, C are declared treed. Upon scoring the tree, we step away from the tree and Dog D is barking a few hundred yards away. Handler D trees his dog immediately while A, B, C are still on the leash. Is this a leash lock (even though shine time was over and tree was scored)? Or should we have cut loose the second we heard dog D barking

Under current rules; those scored dogs are leash-locked. In 2020, the scored dogs will have the option to recast unless the cast agreed to call time out after scoring Dog D.

The judge is the one in charge and the "instructor" of the cast, so to speak. Yes, the judge could scratch a handler for casting or handling his dog when he was instructed not to.

("KEY WORD .... COULD" So does that mean scratching is not absolute as a punisment ? )

But that instruction to cast or handle should be consistent within the rules. Therefore, such a scratch could be questioned, and in the end, the official ruling should reflect the applicable rule as it relates to the specific situation at hand.

I submit that th "IMPLIED SCRATCH" is too vague a catch all term. It allows for as in any situation a rule to be interpreted that you can be scratched for nearly anything a coniving handler or hunting judge could argue .
or decide to scratch.

quote:
Originally posted by JB Cobb
Hmmmm

JR Cobb, I'd like to clarify that not all of the statements noted above are my personal statements. My statements noted were in response to two separate questions. There are other statements mixed in that make it confusing, when it comes to whos saying what.

My point may be clarified by going back to the original thread my statements were copied from. http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...ight=leash+lock

Posted by Sonny Phipps on 09-29-2021 02:11 PM:

Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Night Shift
Bruce I think maybe the judge told him we’ll walk up on the hill and start the 8. Then asked if he was good as In walked far enough. Put a minute rule in UKC and this confusion never happens. Personally I believe both the judge and Jerald. Judge asks are you good the handler hears you’re good. I think it still boils down to the responsibility of the handler to make sure he can turn loose. Everyone knows the rule if you don’t then you haven’t comp hunted long enough. I’ve asked several times on casts did you say I could cut loose just to clarify. It’s not a no harm no foul call good lord how many people have lost casts because of forgetting a minus or a plus. It’s the handlers responsibility. JMO

I agree with everything you’re saying and can appreciate your first hand account of what happened because you were there. It’s very unfortunate the way it played out/happened. I feel that confusion caused the issue. I feel if it was me and the judge ask me if I was good or if said we are good (whatever was said) that it could be taken as he heard a dog and the 8 was not needed or was broke. How soon was the ? Brought up to scratch the dog? Was it after the 8 was ran and broke?

In the end it doesn’t involve me so I’m not gonna rant about things, I just curious as how it transpired.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-29-2021 02:23 PM:

"Implied scratch" made simple..... There are rules to go by. If you break a rule you are scratched. Now what is confusing about that?

Posted by houndsound on 09-29-2021 04:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
"Implied scratch" made simple..... There are rules to go by. If you break a rule you are scratched. Now what is confusing about that?

Because not everyone who breaks a rule is scratched, and allowing for the very most severe punishment possible to be used for the most non consequential and unintentional rule violation makes no sense and will only discourage people from trying the sport.

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Posted by elvis on 09-29-2021 04:49 PM:

Is it true that a dog had barked several times as minny was being led from the tree?

Posted by kybufford on 09-29-2021 05:07 PM:

I've tried to keep up with this post, as bad of a tough break as it was. You have to think UKC made the right call, these are top judges and panel in the biggest event. I do agree a statement of what happen would be great to clear the air and help us learn as a group of hunters what happen so we don't make that mistake.

But that may drag some unwanted attention to a handler, that applied a rule and got her scratched. Not saying that's what happen, but UKC took the high road and stood behind their call and protected ALL that were involved. You cant knock them for that.

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 09-29-2021 05:36 PM:

Ok.. I have watched this.. and the others.. 5 people, walking through the woods, judge asks "if you're ok"... you hear, "you're ok". biggest hunt and winning... By a bunch.. judge yells "NO".. you catch the dog immediately.. no harm,no foul, .. handler states "That is a scratchable offense" obviously a loosing handler. Happens at little hunts, now the biggest of all... Find a way to get a dog gone... Just my opinion.. but I would have never questioned it.there was no advantage.. I want to shake hands when the hunt is over knowing I did what I could to allow the best to win.
JMO..

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Posted by Nathan Phenix on 09-29-2021 05:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by kybufford
I've tried to keep up with this post, as bad of a tough break as it was. You have to think UKC made the right call, these are top judges and panel in the biggest event. I do agree a statement of what happen would be great to clear the air and help us learn as a group of hunters what happen so we don't make that mistake.

But that may drag some unwanted attention to a handler, that applied a rule and got her scratched. Not saying that's what happen, but UKC took the high road and stood behind their call and protected ALL that were involved. You cant knock them for that.

IF a man made a call and it was call that was by the rule there should be no need to protect them or the rule needs reviewed. And personally I feel like you enter the world hunt you should know that the public is fixing to know the details of the hunt. Name one other sport or contest on the world level where result of a rule or call by the official is not made known to public.

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Posted by Dave Richards on 09-29-2021 05:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
Ok.. I have watched this.. and the others.. 5 people, walking through the woods, judge asks "if you're ok"... you hear, "you're ok". biggest hunt and winning... By a bunch.. judge yells "NO".. you catch the dog immediately.. no harm,no foul, .. handler states "That is a scratchable offense" obviously a loosing handler. Happens at little hunts, now the biggest of all... Find a way to get a dog gone... Just my opinion.. but I would have never questioned it.there was no advantage.. I want to shake hands when the hunt is over knowing I did what I could to allow the best to win.
JMO..

Dan, you are the kind of man that I would want to hunt with, but everyone is not like that. Competition hunting brings out the claws so to speak, but you can not fault a handler for sticking to the Rules. A registered dog gets a minus for treeing a possum, a night champion or grand night champion gets scratched for treeing a possum. Why the difference? Well,, after making a Champion, a dog is held to a higher accountability. Hunting in a World Championship, a handler is held to a higher accountability. We can minimize the deed all we want trying to say no harm no foul, but a Panel of highly experienced judges ruled to scratch the dog.Did the handler do wrong willingly? No, but still has to be accountable, unfortunately his mistake most likely cost him a World Championship and 10K. Dave

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Posted by Chris Sterrett on 09-29-2021 06:06 PM:

I for one have never scratched anyone for silly things like this or that, unless pushed to do so. Some will say well that’s the rules but u go scratching people for these little things that is “ no harm no faul” than u will start having a target on your back where ever u go. What I have figured out though is that ukc/Allen is going to strictly enforce the rules is these major hunt where there is eyes watching but not at smaller hunts. Proof of that was when a club by me was doing a ton of things wrong and I told Allen and he made excuses.

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Posted by JB Cobb on 09-29-2021 06:52 PM:

What we don’t know is... What judge said that handler misinterpreted and how far did Minny get before handler caught her... I know it’s the same infraction but was it 2 feet or 2 miles... no one has said...did the handler begin screaming at the dog to COME HERE... if so then yes it might would have negatively effected the other hounds..just curious

Posted by kybufford on 09-29-2021 06:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Phenix
IF a man made a call and it was call that was by the rule there should be no need to protect them or the rule needs reviewed. And personally I feel like you enter the world hunt you should know that the public is fixing to know the details of the hunt. Name one other sport or contest on the world level where result of a rule or call by the official is not made known to public.

IF I made a call that got the best dog beat some would say good job on the handlers part for knowing the rules, others are going to roast me and call me a cheating son of gun and a slick handler for getting a dog scratched because I was loosing.

I'm not saying their silence is right or wrong but, Id say UKC knows what they are doing. May not be the most popular way to handle it but maybe its the legal way to handle it.

Posted by ov_blues on 09-29-2021 07:12 PM:

Sportsmanship and the way that this situation could have been handled.

https://youtu.be/ifCaVLmwEL8

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Posted by Dave Richards on 09-29-2021 07:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by kybufford
IF I made a call that got the best dog beat some would say good job on the handlers part for knowing the rules, others are going to roast me and call me a cheating son of gun and a slick handler for getting a dog scratched because I was loosing.

I'm not saying their silence is right or wrong but, Id say UKC knows what they are doing. May not be the most popular way to handle it but maybe its the legal way to handle it.

Shane, well said and you are 100 percent right in saying you would be roasted. It is easy for the sceptics to deny that response, but reality says they would roast someone for winning that way. It makes no difference that it was by the RULES, the critics would be all over a handler for that move saying they would have ignored the violation. Seriously? With all that was at stake in that cast, I would not accept anyone saying they would have let it slide. Do not pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. What happened in that cast was handled in that cast, the details are not owed to anyone outside of that cast and the Panel that heard the details. Dave

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Posted by ov_blues on 09-29-2021 08:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Shane, well said and you are 100 percent right in saying you would be roasted. It is easy for the sceptics to deny that response, but reality says they would roast someone for winning that way. It makes no difference that it was by the RULES, the critics would be all over a handler for that move saying they would have ignored the violation. Seriously? With all that was at stake in that cast, I would not accept anyone saying they would have let it slide. Do not pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. What happened in that cast was handled in that cast, the details are not owed to anyone outside of that cast and the Panel that heard the details. Dave

Watch the video link that I posted. 2021 US Open Pool Tournament. Playing for big money and the guy did the sportsmanlike thing to do.

I personally would not want to win the UKC World Hunt because someone accidentally cut their dog loose and recovered it within a few steps. In my case I would be hunting a blue dog though and definitely wouldn't want an asterisk beside the World Champion title.

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Posted by Dave Richards on 09-29-2021 08:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Watch the video link that I posted. 2021 US Open Pool Tournament. Playing for big money and the guy did the sportsmanlike thing to do.

I personally would not want to win the UKC World Hunt because someone accidentally cut their dog loose and recovered it within a few steps. In my case I would be hunting a blue dog though and definitely wouldn't want an asterisk beside the World Champion title.

I watched the video and what really happened was the guy lied, replay clearly showed that he did not say extension. I detest lying be it in a man or dog, he deserved to lose his shot. Call it good sportsmanship if you want to, but the guy cheated. He may have thought he called for an extension of time, but he clearly did not. Violating a rule intentional or not is definitely not an excuse, why have RULES if they are not enforced? What rule do you enforce, what makes one rule less important than another rule? The argument of no foul no harm does not merit ignoring a RULE. We can say we would do this or that, but what we do may not be what we think we would do. Winning a World title and 10K by the RULES is nothing to be ashamed about. We often try and measure our corn in another man's bushel right or wrong. Dave

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Posted by ClayBottom11 on 09-29-2021 08:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Shane, well said and you are 100 percent right in saying you would be roasted. It is easy for the sceptics to deny that response, but reality says they would roast someone for winning that way. It makes no difference that it was by the RULES, the critics would be all over a handler for that move saying they would have ignored the violation. Seriously? With all that was at stake in that cast, I would not accept anyone saying they would have let it slide. Do not pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. What happened in that cast was handled in that cast, the details are not owed to anyone outside of that cast and the Panel that heard the details. Dave

You sure about that? Just going off speculation here (because that’s all we’ve got) but the only thing I’ve heard is that one handler had an issue and the third handler did not. So, maybe the third handler was going to let it slide. For the record, I’m not arguing which dog should have won or if a dog should’ve been scratched. But, if everything is straight, what’s the big secret? Own it.

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Posted by Dave Richards on 09-29-2021 09:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ClayBottom11
You sure about that? Just going off speculation here (because that’s all we’ve got) but the only thing I’ve heard is that one handler had an issue and the third handler did not. So, maybe the third handler was going to let it slide. For the record, I’m not arguing which dog should have won or if a dog should’ve been scratched. But, if everything is straight, what’s the big secret? Own it.

Ryan, you are correct in saying all we have is speculation that may or may not be correct. If in fact one handler questioned the issue while the other did not, it only took one. When you have 3 handlers, a judge and a Panel involved, there is no secret big or small. UKC is just not airing it on a public forum and why should they. Judging from all the responses on this FORUM it would only cause more drama. What difference should it matter to anyone not actually involved. Somehow the opinion is that we have a right to know everything that happened, who said what? Who called for an infraction? What rule was used? Etc. What about the privacy and rights of those involved? Personally, I believe the rights of those ennvolved are greater than the public's right to know every thing that happened.

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Posted by Melblank on 09-29-2021 09:57 PM:

Letter of the law versus spirit of the law. Rules/laws are put in place to prevent someone from abusing or taking advantage of not use it to your own advantage.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-29-2021 10:21 PM:

Y'all act like this has never happened before. Does no one remember when the "no squalling" rule was in effect? How many handlers were scratched for accidentally blowing their squaller just once or twice because they were nervous and not thinking? How many were allowed to apologize and not scratched by the other hunters.

How many of y'all have been scratched by a judge who lagged behind and let handlers get to tree before the Judge? How many have gotten to a tree before the judge and only been cautioned not to?

Posted by JB Cobb on 09-29-2021 10:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Y'all act like this has never happened before. Does no one remember when the "no squalling" rule was in effect? How many handlers were scratched for accidentally blowing their squaller just once or twice because they were nervous and not thinking? How many were allowed to apologize and not scratched by the other hunters.

How many of y'all have been scratched by a judge who lagged behind and let handlers get to tree before the Judge?

Yes I’ve seen all this and worse... handlers and judges scratch folks for 2 reasons... 1 it was done to them and that’s the mentality they felt they needed to adopt to be successful.... 2 they don’t have enough dog power so they have to cheat or use rules in their favor to win.... Rules are needed for guidance and to keep trouble makers in line... They shouldn’t be used as a tool as some have said to eliminate competitors.... Both of these issues are an awful example to show our youth or new hunter starting out..

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