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-- Face Barking in a hunt (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928536229)

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Bruce, when you have one of those leave me alone types, all of the tree jacker and face barker handlers will try every trick to get yours scratched. They all start crying when they go in to a tree and theirs is standing back bloody but yours is standing like a statue treeing away. They will gang up and vote to scratch yours when they know their's started it.

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Home of the Original Whiskey Hounds!
Rebecca Agee

Re: .

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
What dog do you want. The one blowing and face barking. The one jumping. Or the one standing still and had better be left alone. I have seen several of the standing still ones shut down several problems at a tree in 5 seconds or less. Dogs just didn't mess with them after they demonstrated they would not be messed with. They didn't go looking for trouble. But they didn't move an inch because of it.

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I have seen/heard a couple of dogs that sounded like they were fighting when they were treed by themselves. They were all females.

Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch.Hood’s Finley River Jody was one of the nicest and hardest treeing dogs I ever had the pleasure to hunt. She was a 140 barks a minute tree dog that could stay treed with an alligator and never get in trouble. She simply stayed away from the rough dogs and alligators.

Never saw her leave a tree over a rough dog............ but that was a long time ago. I laid her to rest in March of 1988 so perhaps the dogs are tougher and meaner in today’s world.

I’d love to have her to hunt again! She was an exceptional hound all the way around!

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Dan

My My!

I'm not sure I've seen a more divided subject! Is there a right or wrong or are we just trying to justify what type dog we hunt? I totally understand that what UKC has written as a rule should be adhered to but we want to make sure that we don't use it as a tool to run the wrong type of hound. Some say face barking is ok and some say not ok and I'll bet it all has to do with what type dog we are hunting in competition. I said in competition because that's what we're talking about. I've have owned and hunted both types and I will honestly tell you, its the non face barking type that I want. When I was a youngster I used to run with some guys that were (supposedly) tougher than the other guys, or at least that's what they displayed by their actions. I thought it was cool because I ran with these guys but that didn't make them or me one bit tougher or better than the other guys, it just made the other guys shy away. I found out later in life that this was not a preferred behavior and I have always strived to instill this into my children, grandchildren and now in my great grand children. I do not like face barking in a dog but it's something that we all are faced with in competition and we'll have to live with it as long as UKC says it's ok. Face barking to me is like those tough guys from the past, they want to distance themselves from the competition and that's their way of doing it. No other dogs on the tree, means no completion! This is the way I see it and this is my opinion. I'm not saying its right or wrong but it's mine and I believe you all are entitled to yours. I'll leave you with this, until we can see clearly what we have on the end of our lead strap without making excuses, then I believe we're just fooling ourselves and trying to get everyone else to jump on a sinking ship

When the topic is face barking I don't see how tree jacking can be brought up. Face barking is aggression. PERIOD. A jumping dog , while not the most favorable treeing style, is focused on the coon and trying his best to get to it. The face barker has given up on the coon and is more concerned with other dogs. Now, if 4 men walk into a tree and one dog has his nose on the ground, you will hear three handlers holler "minus that dog". He has obviously gotten his mind off of treeing. Isn't a face barker doing the same? His mind is not on the task at hand. He could be minused because he is no longer treeing even though his feet are on the tree.

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Donald Bergeron

I guess my opinion is a little different than what has been mentioned. A dog that is trying to get by itself and blows a little when something backs it is one thing. A dog that is running to every treed dog in the woods and then blows at em until they are handled is another. If you bring a dog to a hunt that you know is gonna run to every treed dog in the woods, it needs to be clean on the tree. Rules aside, it’s just disrespectful to your fellow hunters.

I'll explain that one

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Originally posted by shadinc
When the topic is face barking I don't see how tree jacking can be brought up. Face barking is aggression. PERIOD. A jumping dog , while not the most favorable treeing style, is focused on the coon and trying his best to get to it. The face barker has given up on the coon and is more concerned with other dogs. Now, if 4 men walk into a tree and one dog has his nose on the ground, you will hear three handlers holler "minus that dog". He has obviously gotten his mind off of treeing. Isn't a face barker doing the same? His mind is not on the task at hand. He could be minused because he is no longer treeing even though his feet are on the tree.

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Alot of facebarking is a focus problem created unintentionally by the handler.

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Thanks , Warren. for Smokey River Blueticks

This is a good topic that has always been and will likely always be debated. It's one UKC has covered numerous times, that has not changed in my time hunting in nite hunts and probably not much, if any, since day one.

It's been mentioned repeatedly that in order to scratch a dog for face-barking you need both aggression AND interference. That is true. The better question is; what is considered aggression and what is considered as interfering by UKC's definition?

First, fighting requires contact between two hounds. Attempting to fight does not require contact. But in order to scratch a dog for attempting to fight, again, the dog must show aggression AND be interfering with another hound while showing that aggression.

Aggressive behavior may come in various ways. Growling, hackled up, shouldering, and yes, face barking are all, by UKC's definition, forms of aggression.

The interference/interfering part is likely the most debated and comes with different opinions. That's expected. UKC's definition of interfering, when it comes to attempting to fight, is that it directly relates to the dogs' reaction that the aggressive behavior is directed towards. In other words Dog B may simply move around to the other side of the tree or back away a bit and carry on. That, by UKC's position, is not interfering and Dog A should not be scratched for attempting to fight.

An interfering scenario would be where Dog A is face-barking at B and B moves to get away but A continues after B circling the tree or chases him away from the tree. Both criteria have been met to scratch A for attempting to fight. Another scenario may be where A is treed and turns at any dog, with a form of aggression, who is wanting to come in to the tree but doesn't because of the tree guarder. This dog has also met both criteria.

That said, you'll have dogs that will be much quicker to leave a tree or not come in to a tree because of the temperament issues demonstrated by Dog A. Regardless, the action taken, one way or the other, should have nothing to do with considering the difference between a woosie vs a non-woosie (woosie or non-woosie being Dog B).

Think it's also important to note that attempting to fight is something you see and not something you hear only but "think" may be happening.

I've found that the better judges will generally error on the side of needing to see "obvious" interference before they will scratch a dog for attempting to fight. I don't think you can fault that. I'd agree that we have more dogs that get away with actual fighting than we do attempting to fight but who didn't meet the criteria.

It's certainly one of those scenarios why it's important that judge's decisions or cast member's votes are not based on personal agendas and winning at any cost. A scratch for fighting is a serious offense that goes both ways.

I've said a lot but hope it helps to understand UKC's position and interpretation of aggression and interfering.

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
This is a good topic that has always been and will likely always be debated. It's one UKC has covered numerous times, that has not changed in my time hunting in nite hunts and probably not much, if any, since day one.

It's been mentioned repeatedly that in order to scratch a dog for face-barking you need both aggression AND interference. That is true. The better question is; what is considered aggression and what is considered as interfering by UKC's definition?

First, fighting requires contact between two hounds. Attempting to fight does not require contact. But in order to scratch a dog for attempting to fight, again, the dog must show aggression AND be interfering with another hound while showing that aggression.

Aggressive behavior may come in various ways. Growling, hackled up, shouldering, and yes, face barking are all, by UKC's definition, forms of aggression.

The interference/interfering part is likely the most debated and comes with different opinions. That's expected. UKC's definition of interfering, when it comes to attempting to fight, is that it directly relates to the dogs' reaction that the aggressive behavior is directed towards. In other words Dog B may simply move around to the other side of the tree or back away a bit and carry on. That, by UKC's position, is not interfering and Dog A should not be scratched for attempting to fight.

An interfering scenario would be where Dog A is face-barking at B and B moves to get away but A continues after B circling the tree or chases him away from the tree. Both criteria have been met to scratch A for attempting to fight. Another scenario may be where A is treed and turns at any dog, with a form of aggression, who is wanting to come in to the tree but doesn't because of the tree guarder. This dog has also met both criteria.

That said, you'll have dogs that will be much quicker to leave a tree or not come in to a tree because of the temperament issues demonstrated by Dog A. Regardless, the action taken, one way or the other, should have nothing to do with considering the difference between a woosie vs a non-woosie (woosie or non-woosie being Dog B).

Think it's also important to note that attempting to fight is something you see and not something you hear only but "think" may be happening.

I've found that the better judges will generally error on the side of needing to see "obvious" interference before they will scratch a dog for attempting to fight. I don't think you can fault that. I'd agree that we have more dogs that get away with actual fighting than we do attempting to fight but who didn't meet the criteria.

It's certainly one of those scenarios why it's important that judge's decisions or cast member's votes are not based on personal agendas and winning at any cost. A scratch for fighting is a serious offense that goes both ways.

I've said a lot but hope it helps to understand UKC's position and interpretation of aggression and interfering.

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Let's go huntin

On the other hand, a dog face barking is no longer treeing. (Minus)

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"If I can't have the whole dog,,,I don't want the tail"

Is he still under the canopy ? Does his nose touch the ground? LOL whole other post there bud.

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Home of the Original Whiskey Hounds!
Rebecca Agee

Is a dog that is face barking actually attempting to fight or are they just arguing, being a bully and trying to push another dog around. If the other dog stands up to them they won't jump on it, they will just continue to face bark. A fight usually breaks out when Dog B takes offence and attacks the face barker. Then the handler of Dog B claims that the face barker started the fight. Now, is that true or is Dog B "mean"? The face barker may not actually be "mean" but just a "face barker".
If a male dog just smells a "mean" female's rear while she is treeing and she turns around and downs him, do you scratch the male or the female? The male definitely wasn't "attempting to fight". Did he start the fight?

I guess my question is, who wants to hunt a face barker? I can put up with more things than I should from a dog but face barking and being mean, I won't put up with.

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Tom Wood

I know it must annoy the crap out of the other dogs to be face barked.......my wife face barks me from time to time. Lmao.

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Tim Green
Retired Air Force 24+ years
Disabled Veteran

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Originally posted by Tim Green
I know it must annoy the crap out of the other dogs to be face barked.......my wife face barks me from time to time. Lmao.

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Tom Wood

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Originally posted by Preacher Tom
But is she aggressive or not, lol.

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Tim Green
Retired Air Force 24+ years
Disabled Veteran

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Originally posted by marpal
On the other hand, a dog face barking is no longer treeing. (Minus)

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Let's go huntin

All kidding aside, everyone knows the dog they’re hunting. We all know the right thing to do in not just this case, but all of them. Nobody likes to minus or scratch their own dog, but if everyone would just do the right thing it would be so much more enjoyable for everyone.

Plus the coons
Minus the slicks
Circle the dens
Scratch those that deserve it

The human factors of our sport is what gets this whole process blurred because some want to win at all costs, even friendships. Sad, but true.

Another thing, The hunts are not the place to fix problems, that is on the practice field. Get your dogs fixed before they compete, because honestly some should never come to the competition ring. I’ve heard many say, bench shows are won at home....guess what, night hunts are also.

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Tim Green
Retired Air Force 24+ years
Disabled Veteran

It is amazing to me how many people only hunt their dogs in comp hunts. They don't pleasure hunt them. If they do then it is only by themselves. None of these faults/problems show up when you hunt a dog by itself.

I only hunt a dog alone there 1st yr, through all 4 seasons. I do pull out a dog out of my own kennel once a month or so and run them with the dog I am working. When I think there about ready for nite hunts I call a buddy and see how they act. And yes I have spent 6 to 8 months on a dog only to find out there are ill with dogs they don't know. Talk about wasted time.

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Home of the Original Whiskey Hounds!
Rebecca Agee

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Originally posted by River Birch Run
I only hunt a dog alone there 1st yr, through all 4 seasons. I do pull out a dog out of my own kennel once a month or so and run them with the dog I am working. When I think there about ready for nite hunts I call a buddy and see how they act. And yes I have spent 6 to 8 months on a dog only to find out there are ill with dogs they don't know. Talk about wasted time.

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If you hunted them with another dog right off the bat, you wouldn't waste that time. I sometimes wonder how many of these problems are created by only hunting a young dog by themselves. Maybe if you hunted them with other dogs when they were young, they would get used to them jumping around and all of the face barking.

LOL I know, its just hard around here to find someone to hunt with that
has a mellow dog that isen't trashy. My good friends that push the hunts are often hunting a grouchy dog. They don't like dogs that can be "run off". My other friends hunt dogs that will run anything from a freight train to a humming bird. I don't mind braking mine off of a little trash, but I want them to run it on there own not pick it up from another dog. Last dog I spent about 8 months on, I hunted with Big the weekend after he won AO. We cut them loose and my dog jumped big right after we cut them. Big ignored him went in and slammed a coon. Mine tried his best to get him to fight on the tree Big payed him no mind. I have never been so embarrassed. I put him up for a yr then tried again, same stuff. I had hunted him with females now and then, and never saw anything out of him in the kennel to throw red flags.

__________________
Home of the Original Whiskey Hounds!
Rebecca Agee