UKC Forums - Meat dog

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-- Meat dog (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928531283)

Posted by houndsound on 07-20-2020 12:27 AM:

I'm not sure of the numbers.... but there can't really be that may people winning thousands of dollars on any kind of regular basis are there? Even for a guy that wins a big $5000 - $10,000 prize..... there are a lot at that hunt that won $0. And.... I still doubt that big prize money won once a year or so does not really off set the costs involved in getting the win.

I really suspect it's more about the competition and bragging rights still..... saying it's about the money is like arguing that playing slots in vegas is a good way to make money because a guy won a big pot once.

Nobody thinks playing slots is a smart way to make money... it's about the fun, a game of chance.

Posted by Sgraves on 07-20-2020 12:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by houndsound
I'm not sure of the numbers.... but there can't really be that may people winning thousands of dollars on any kind of regular basis are there? Even for a guy that wins a big $5000 - $10,000 prize..... there are a lot at that hunt that won $0. And.... I still doubt that big prize money won once a year or so does not really off set the costs involved in getting the win.

I really suspect it's more about the competition and bragging rights still..... saying it's about the money is like arguing that playing slots in vegas is a good way to make money because a guy won a big pot once.

Nobody thinks playing slots is a smart way to make money... it's about the fun, a game of chance.

It’s a money driven sport. Men with money to spend however they seem fit is involved.People may not like this kinda talk but, whatever them guys want they have the money to get. Rather it be rule changes, how long a cast should be or what style dog will be pushed to win on any given night . A paid handler acts totally different than one that’s out there to just have fun or hope he is packing a real coon dog that comes out on top that given night. It’s not about real coon dogs anymore. Too much money on the line these days.

Posted by Dave Richards on 07-20-2020 01:06 AM:

Sgraves

I agree with you, coon hunting for purely pleasure is dieing off every time one of our older hunter dies. Not many of these younger hunters want to hunt in the wintertime just to go and tree a coon or two. Tar often talks about the past competition hunts and I agree with him, they were considerable harder to WIN, longer hunts, no buckets and stiff competition, everyone seemed to have s pretty good dog. The real issue is with us older hunters lamenting the old days of coon hunting, they are gone and WE are way past our prime. Let these young guys enjoy WHAT they call competition hunting, even though we know it's not our cup of tea. We CAN NOT impose our standards on these younger hunters, they have the right to play their game. I dare say if we were younger and things were as they are now, we would be playing the same game as they are. Personally, I am glad that I came up in a time that coon hunting was a sport you either hated or loved and one you pursued with passion for a truly good coon dog, a dog that stood above the rest, one that you would hunt against any dog just for fun and bragging rights, no money wanted or needed to hunt. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by Sgraves on 07-20-2020 01:34 AM:

Mr Richards I don’t mean for people to sound like I know it all , because am far from that. We need as many young people as possible to get involved in order to keep this great sport alive. Have said this before. I remember laying on a pond bank, standing on a ridge top or listening to hounds voice echo across a slew bottom as a kid . That is still what has my heart when it comes to hounds .I can’t really say, but I will say that the youth are being taught on how to handle a dog to their advantage vs on calling a dog for what it’s actually doing. May be wrong, an not all are like this. But our youth is being taught to be handlers not dog men or women. Until this game we play goes back to being a bunch of men or women that spent their nights doing what these animals were ment for this sport will die. What am trying to say is . We have to stop doing what made real dogs an replaced it with what makes it easy for man to gain an advantage that has set back what a true hunting dog that started this competition between us to begin with. I mean is it not what started it all.

Posted by Dave Richards on 07-20-2020 01:51 AM:

Sgraves

I agree with every thing you are saying, unfortunately, I do not see much change from the way things are today coming anytime soon. We live in a different world today than the one you and I grew up in. Instant gratification is what every one wants these days. I still love ALL if the aspects of coon hunting just as you described , but not every one does, it's different strokes for different people. I grew up hunting in thin coons and it took a really good dog to tree coons in these hills , having a really good coon dog was a thing of pride, hunting a really good coon dog was a pleasure . Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by novicane65 on 07-20-2020 02:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Eric, in the last 10 year's there have been 10 World Champions. I wonder how many pups were born in the last 10 year's? What percentage would that be?
I wonder how many good meat dogs there have been in the last 10 year's?

You're wrong, there's been more than 10 World Champions. You have to include the other registries. You can't take those titles way from those that won them. UkC isn't the only registry. I understand its the only one for some guys, and its by their choice not to hunt the others. And there was some dogs that won in more than 1 registry or multiple years in the past 10 years. But there's still more than 10 dogs that won the titles. A good pleasure dog and a good competition dog aren't always the same. A very loose tree dog would still make a "good" meat dog but would most certainly be minused in a competition hunt. A slower track dog can be a "good" meat dog, but not usually going to do well in comparison in comp hunts. And what a pleasure hunter tolerates out of their dog might not be tolerated by very many comp hunters. An example of that is a dog you need to walk along with for it to hunt. A pleasure hunter's dog might not hunt very deep, say 100 or 200 yards. And most comp hunters wouldn't pack that type of dog to a hunt. And there's many many more pleasure hunters than competition hunters.

__________________
Eric DePue
Hill Country Kennels Itty-Bitty
PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

Posted by Sgraves on 07-20-2020 02:48 AM:

Ovciane65 maybe if they would call that chit eater for what they do it wouldn’t be so hard. You reckon. Most men like to take short cuts an it shows

Posted by novicane65 on 07-20-2020 02:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Ovciane65 maybe if they would call that chit eater for what they do it wouldn’t be so hard. You reckon. Most men like to take short cuts an it shows

Definitely agree. Just call your dog for what it does. Let your dog speak for itself. I don't try n be a slick handler. I call a dog for what it does, right or wrong its on the dog. If the dog opens 3 times then I call it, if it suits up then I take my minus. If it trees slick, I'll take my minus. And I don't try to talk others into circles, they can decide just like I'll minus my own dog for being slick.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 07-20-2020 03:14 AM:

Dead cast

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Been a while but last time I competed 3 first in 3 hunts and high scoring dog all 3 times. And there was daggum shore More than one coon treed on them cast. Up north were those hunts are there should be no excuse. I live in the crappiest hunting there is lots of coons but miserable hunting.

2 hour cast I won’t pack a 1 coon in 1 hour dog.

Tar

So tar in all your years, hours and lifetimes of hunting, you ain't never had a dead cast, or just a bad night when coons weren't moving? Bringing to wonder if your dogs were that good or your mind is just going?

Posted by novicane65 on 07-20-2020 03:31 AM:

Re: Dead cast

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
So tar in all your years, hours and lifetimes of hunting, you ain't never had a dead cast, or just a bad night when coons weren't moving? Bringing to wonder if your dogs were that good or your mind is just going?

I'm sure like most he doesn't remember all the terrible casts but he can and does remember the fantastic ones. I've had some dead casts and some terrible casts. But the good casts out number the bad 10/1.

Posted by Dave Richards on 07-20-2020 04:33 AM:

Eric DePue

You are my kind of cooh hunter, I know we would have a blast hunting together, just wish you were closer to me. Heck, I may have to come up sometime and hunt with you, never hunted in New York. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by yadkintar on 07-20-2020 04:42 AM:

Re: Dead cast

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
So tar in all your years, hours and lifetimes of hunting, you ain't never had a dead cast, or just a bad night when coons weren't moving? Bringing to wonder if your dogs were that good or your mind is just going?

I am going to be really humble with my answer. I was fortunate to be competing is the hunts at a time when some of the greatest hunters in history were in the hunts they beat me badly. But I didn’t swell up I asked questions on training , bloodlines , how to condition a dog before a hunt and how to have an eye for talent but even at that it took years for me to get wins against those guys till I found out I had to use my brain and know where I was at on that card at all times. Roll that to the future now if you know these things going to a local ukc weekend hunt it don’t seem like the level of competition is as strong actually it don’t excite me much to win anymore. But I am an old cripple this couch and air conditioner is pretty nice.

Tar

Posted by yadkinriver on 07-20-2020 11:59 AM:

Tar I like that answer but maybe it takes another old man to see it.

Posted by novicane65 on 07-20-2020 02:05 PM:

Re: Eric DePue

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
You are my kind of cooh hunter, I know we would have a blast hunting together, just wish you were closer to me. Heck, I may have to come up sometime and hunt with you, never hunted in New York. Dave

You're welcome anytime. But be warned I don't have the greatest of hunting. And the coon population is spotty. But there's some state ground north of me that has some decent hunting and has a good population.

Posted by honalieh on 07-21-2020 03:27 AM:

Money Driven Sport

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
It’s a money driven sport. Men with money to spend however they seem fit is involved. People may not like this kinda talk but, whatever them guys want they have the money to get. Rather it be rule changes, how long a cast should be or what style dog will be pushed to win on any given night . A paid handler acts totally different than one that’s out there to just have fun or hope he is packing a real coon dog that comes out on top that given night. It’s not about real coon dogs anymore. Too much money on the line these days.

Don't think that it wasn't money driven back in the peak days of hide prices (but, the money was made on hides). I remember that if you didn't get to your spot early, someone was already there, and you'd have to find another spot to hunt. And, when you were hunting, you'd often see the jacklighters driving the roads and spotting trees all around you. When hide prices started dwindling, so did the number of people hunting.

Posted by honalieh on 07-21-2020 03:45 AM:

My take

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben

Something that really has had me thinking...why is it a dogs pedigree can be stacked with grand night champions, a few night champions and world champions yet the common talk is that they don’t produce???

My thoughts are that if they cannot reproduce themselves then there is something wrong with the system that titles them...these dogs should reproduce a decent percentage of likeness...

I have never seen a truly outstanding dog that could produce dogs as good or better than themselves with any degree of regularity.

We often hear the claim that the test of a good stud dog is one that consistently reproduces dogs as good or better than themselves. That's false. If it were true, then poor to mediocre dogs would have a greater chance of meeting that reproducing standard because the "as good or better" standard would be much lower, thus more easily attainable.

You can't expect world class hounds to consistently reproduce themselves or better. But, a poor to mediocre hound can do it. Does that make them a better reproducer? No!!!

Posted by Reuben on 07-21-2020 04:16 AM:

The dogs I’ve bred since 2010 have not been as consistent for me on account I’ve gotten rid of whole litters and culled many dogs...maybe I am too hard nosed but I know what I want...have decent dogs now but I can honestly say they probably will reproduce at a lower consistency just by knowing the past history...not only that but I do not hunt like I have in the past...so can’t really judge my dogs as well as I should...no excuses just reasons...

Why is it you don’t believe that can happen?

Some kids grow up to be professional athletes yet the parents are only average or slightly above average...so it only makes sense that dogs can be the same way...and using a selection process it makes sense the probability of better increased...

But I will say this...from the late 1980’s till 2008 the pups I kept were as good as the sires and dams and then further down the pedigree the pups I kept hunted harder and faster...also had more grit...also quite a few needed to be caught or they could stroke out with the heat of summer here in the south...the reason because if they were in hogs they would quit...I believe we all breed and strive better...for those that don’t know much about hog hunting...hogs can run for hours sticking to the thickest thickets...dogs will lose ground running through those thickets...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by Reuben on 07-21-2020 04:32 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Rueben

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
Here's some more information to ponder too. If every pup out of a litter had the same chances would your results be better or worse? Not every pup gets the same chance. Even for a guy like yourself. You've explained about how you test your pups. And a great way to get natural tendencies. But I bet you don't keep every pup, and you can't train every pup you've produced as a breeder. But just because there's a pedigree full of champion titles sure doesn't mean what they reproduce will make the grade.

And imho, so there's 10% of dogs that are decent. And only 5-10% of those are the consistent ones I want. And only 5-10% of those have the talent to be a world champion. So there's only 1-2% or less that have the talent to be what everyone that buys a pup hopes for (being a world champion).

Back 1990s through 2008 about every pup I kept turned into a good dog...maybe not the best coat on one or even an undershot mouth on another but very few of these...I usually kept 4 pups past 4 months of age and gave away the rest to several friends and sent the others to make javalina dogs in Mexico...the majority made good hunting dogs...
I gave away a 10 week old pup because he was slightly bigger boned that I liked and by vxx a year old he was making a top dog...
I might of kept one or two with a fault but wasn’t a hunting fault I couldn’t put up with...but I never bred one...but I would have before I went out of the family of dogs if I ever needed to...
To answe the percentage number I really couldn’t answer correctly but it was pretty high...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by novicane65 on 07-22-2020 03:06 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Rueben

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Back 1990s through 2008 about every pup I kept turned into a good dog...maybe not the best coat on one or even an undershot mouth on another but very few of these...I usually kept 4 pups past 4 months of age and gave away the rest to several friends and sent the others to make javalina dogs in Mexico...the majority made good hunting dogs...
I gave away a 10 week old pup because he was slightly bigger boned that I liked and by vxx a year old he was making a top dog...
I might of kept one or two with a fault but wasn’t a hunting fault I couldn’t put up with...but I never bred one...but I would have before I went out of the family of dogs if I ever needed to...
To answe the percentage number I really couldn’t answer correctly but it was pretty high...

Your version of good and other peoples version of good might be very different things or very similar. I'm not saying you don't know what a dog is or isn't. I think with your experiences you have a very good idea on what 1 is. I'd say it depends upon what you expect out of a dog. And if you've owned an above average dog then it's hard to go back to average or below average. Now just like your Yellow dog....... As you've explained him he was way above average. Those are the types we're looking for and talking about. And have you ever bred a pup as good or better than Yellow dog?

Posted by Reuben on 07-22-2020 04:33 AM:

Right now I don’t have what I used to have but working on improving...but like I mentioned they don’t get the chance to hunt as much as I once did nor do I have the time I once had and not as many places to hunt...so can’t compare to back then...

My Yeller dog...I’ve had some really good ones and were very consistent and just about all of them had some of his blood in them...but it his son was used quite a bit more because I liked the pedigree better...
Some were outstanding as many dogs are...but Yeller was in a class by himself...great dogs look good in any company...but dogs like Yeller are rare...they have that special brain power that makes it look easy...
Brain power is the difference...at least that is my personal opinion...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by novicane65 on 07-23-2020 02:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Right now I don’t have what I used to have but working on improving...but like I mentioned they don’t get the chance to hunt as much as I once did nor do I have the time I once had and not as many places to hunt...so can’t compare to back then...

My Yeller dog...I’ve had some really good ones and were very consistent and just about all of them had some of his blood in them...but it his son was used quite a bit more because I liked the pedigree better...
Some were outstanding as many dogs are...but Yeller was in a class by himself...great dogs look good in any company...but dogs like Yeller are rare...they have that special brain power that makes it look easy...
Brain power is the difference...at least that is my personal opinion...

I agree on brain power. But those dogs like Yeller is what I know and some others on here know as a COONDAWG. There's many coondogs but not many Coondawgs. Difference is they just seem to be on an elite level above the others. And most of those on that level don't reproduce as good or better, because better would be the once in a lifetime type.

Posted by Reuben on 07-23-2020 06:23 AM:

It took me many years to figure out the difference between
Great dogs and a once in a lifetime dog...I never read or heard or mentioned the differences...to me a great hunting dog is an awesome dog and he is hard to beat day in and day out...they don’t have bad day just some days better than others...

So because of how good these dogs are i could not decide exactly what it was that set them apart...one day it hit me...what sets them apart is brain power...they just make the hard to find game or the hard to figure out a track look easy...

And I agree with you...those dogs do not reproduce themselves because they deviate too far from normal...yes they can produce excellent dogs but not themselves...
Yeller was not a purebred so that was a big reason I didn’t breed him but one time...he was Mt cur and black mouth cur cross...I wanted tighter mouth and larger size...

Yeller did things as a pup I never seen before and he was a sure enough on his way and at 10 months he was pretty dang good...

Brain power...they say a dog does not reason...that he is driven by instinct...Yeller made me think that could be wrong...I do not think I will ever own another like him...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by Kler Kry on 07-23-2020 05:22 PM:

Intelligence and the Desire to Please

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
It took me many years to figure out the difference between
Great dogs and a once in a lifetime dog...I never read or heard or mentioned the differences...to me a great hunting dog is an awesome dog and he is hard to beat day in and day out...they don’t have bad day just some days better than others...

So because of how good these dogs are i could not decide exactly what it was that set them apart...one day it hit me...what sets them apart is brain power...they just make the hard to find game or the hard to figure out a track look easy...

And I agree with you...those dogs do not reproduce themselves because they deviate too far from normal...yes they can produce excellent dogs but not themselves...
Yeller was not a purebred so that was a big reason I didn’t breed him but one time...he was Mt cur and black mouth cur cross...I wanted tighter mouth and larger size...

Yeller did things as a pup I never seen before and he was a sure enough on his way and at 10 months he was pretty dang good...

Brain power...they say a dog does not reason...that he is driven by instinct...Yeller made me think that could be wrong...I do not think I will ever own another like him...

I agree. But intelligence without the desire to please the handler can be a nightmare. The amount of nonhunting time spent with a dog greatly improves communication and develops a higher IQ. We have a 13 year old terrier house dog that can process your actions, understands the meaning of words and makes decisions based on what she anticipates you are going to do. If you do something that she doesn't approve of or ask her to do something that she doesn't want to do, she responses with a "sigh". She communicates with barks and actions. She is smarter and communicates better than some people that I know.

Posted by high ridge on 07-24-2020 03:05 PM:

Give me a GOOD MEAT DOG and I will show you a winner in just a little bit.

If it’s NOT A GOOD MEAT DOG you will not see me at the entry table.

__________________
Get a Good One

Posted by Reuben on 07-24-2020 04:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by high ridge
Give me a GOOD MEAT DOG and I will show you a winner in just a little bit.

If it’s NOT A GOOD MEAT DOG you will not see me at the entry table.

A meat dog is a hunting dog...
This dog has to meet a standard and if it doesn’t...then it’s not a hunting dog...

Many people don’t agree with a minimum standard...but there really should be so at least the production of culls will be lower...folks can breed up from there...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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