UKC Forums - Hybrid vigor ?

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-- Hybrid vigor ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928524958)

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-10-2019 04:34 PM:

Re: Question

quote:
Originally posted by Bweddle
If an outcross was made that produced the desired results and the offspring were crossed back to purebred dogs of one of the breeds used would the line ever be registered as that breed or remain Xbreed dog from then on?

I'm fairly certain their criteria is after 3 generations of breeding back within one breed then the offspring are considered purebred and can be registered as such.

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Posted by yadkintar on 12-10-2019 04:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Yeah Vern, I know what'cha mean. I remember when I got an academic sholarship to UT. But I really don't know what that has to do with X breeding coonhounds. But then I seldom comprehend what you are trying to say. Sometimes I think that we are speaking a different language.

Well I be a suck egg mule!! You don’t know the difference in a A+ dog and a D- dog if you have to breed to anouther breed to get that A+ dog to get to a higher level do it at my age I want a coondog color don’t mean nothing to me no more.

Except green I like green lol.

Tar

Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-10-2019 04:53 PM:

Oh my goodness, is color the only thing that separates the breeds?
And I am getting confused again. Are you saying that there isn't a walker stud out there that can produce A+ pups? I don't understand why you don't breed your female to Shack or one of Mr Finley's dogs. Wouldn't that be an outcross without being a X bred? It sounds to me like Donnie Stevens might be right.

Posted by yadkintar on 12-10-2019 05:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, is color the only thing that separates the breeds?
And I am getting confused again. Are you saying that there isn't a walker stud out there that can produce A+ pups? I don't understand why you don't breed your female to Shack or one of Mr Finley's dogs. Wouldn't that be an outcross without being a X bred? It sounds to me like Donnie Stevens might be right.

You ain’t listening lol. All the walkers are so close bred there ain’t no outcross.

Get two red dog that produce 4000 pups each in 5 yrs you will have the same problem.

Tarbaby

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-10-2019 05:10 PM:

Coondog to coondog crosses used to be a common occurrence bred outside their respective breeds and they were hunted within the grade portion of hunts. After the elimination of grades they were then single registered as whatever breed standards they best fit. With the introduction of the x-breed program as a way to honestly register these dogs more crosses are being planned and made. All these dogs of the past and now present were by every definition of the term "hybrids" but how many show signs of "hybrid vigor"? The answer... few. The chances are no greater than breeding a superior hound within the breed than outside it. There is a genetic/environment ratio that always comes into play. There is much more that goes into it than just an x-bred hybrid dog. I could go into genes, chromosomes and alleles but lol.
Bottom line if what you are looking for is a dominant trait found in a different breed that that dog is consistently putting into it's pups and you believe that those traits will match up well on your females genetics then do it.
If you are going into making an outcross counting on hybrid vigor to occur just because it is a cross outside your breed thinking you will get outstanding performance and overall health/wellness you may want to think again. If this were the case the English breed would be superior to all others by a long shot and every fu fu cross made on various breeds of dogs would be much healthier than the purebreds which is not the case as very large long term studies have shown.
Breeding dogs is not like a scientist making a genetically modified corn or tomato plant breeding for hybrid vigor. You/I are not scientist and we are unable to isolate certain genes.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-10-2019 05:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
.....Bottom line if what you are looking for is a dominant trait found in a different breed that that dog is consistently putting into it's pups and you believe that those traits will match up well on your females genetics then do it.

If you are going into making an outcross counting on hybrid vigor to occur just because it is a cross outside your breed thinking you will get outstanding performance and overall health/wellness you may want to think again.....

Jen, my poor old brain must not be comprehending very well today because I am confused again. Are you saying that Tarbaby should "do it" or that he should "think again"?

Posted by Dave Richards on 12-10-2019 05:31 PM:

Jen Cummings and Bruce Conkey

I really enjoyed the posts that you both have made on this thread. Your posts were well articulated and covered this subject matter in a way that anyone could understand. Finding that dog that suits us in every way is like finding the needle in the haystack, it can be done, but the task is very difficult. Dave

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Posted by yadkintar on 12-10-2019 05:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Jen, my poor old brain must not be comprehending very well today because I am confused again. Are you saying that Tarbaby should "do it" or that he should "think again"?

Let me go at you this way mr Finley’s trader dog was Nailor and clover I got that multiple times. Shack is Harry, Nailor , and lipper I got that multiple times. They would not be a complete out cross ! To get hybrid vigor I need a complete outcross on a top coondog that reproduces the same.

Tarbaby

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-10-2019 05:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Jen, my poor old brain must not be comprehending very well today because I am confused again. Are you saying that Tarbaby should "do it" or that he should "think again"?

I think Tar or anyone else should make a cross based upon the same research they would do with any other. No cross has a guaranteed outcome and I don't want anyone to be mislead by thinking that because an outcross within the coonhound breeds will result in automatically result in something outstanding and sure not guaranteed to be the unicorn those search far and wide for resulting in better performance along with overall health.
My answer - whatever floats your boat, Tar's or anyone else.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-10-2019 05:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Let me go at you this way mr Finley’s trader dog was Nailor and clover I got that multiple times. Shack is Harry, Nailor , and lipper I got that multiple times. They would not be a complete out cross ! To get hybrid vigor I need a complete outcross on a top coondog that reproduces the same.

Tarbaby

Actually hybrid vigor can also be obtained by inbreeding and therefore stacking of dominant genes the first cross is know as F1.

Posted by yadkintar on 12-10-2019 06:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Actually hybrid vigor can also be obtained by inbreeding and therefore stacking of dominant genes the first cross is know as F1.

Well I was just really wanting to prove a point that the only way a bluetick could win the $50,000 or world hunt is to be 1/2 walker lol.

Just saying

Tarbaby

Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-10-2019 06:08 PM:

Tarbaby, just shows how little I know about walker bloodlines. I guess that I had better stick to Redbones. I have a one track mind.
Jen, there you go confusing a good argument with facts.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-10-2019 06:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Well I was just really wanting to prove a point that the only way a bluetick could win the $50,000 or world hunt is to be 1/2 walker lol.

Just saying

Tarbaby

Lol you go for it!
What you will get with any breeding even your outcross... a combination of 39 pairs of chromosomes with one coming from each parent. One pair determines the sex of the pup and the other 38 will determine the genetic makeup of the pup with thousands of genes at play.

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 12-10-2019 06:32 PM:

I think in many cases we hang the title of Hybrid Vigor on an improvement we see when the truth is. We just recovered some form someones poor choices and Inbreeding Depression.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 12-10-2019 06:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Breeding coonhounds is not a very scientific endeavor. Everyone including me has their own ideas or hypothesis but they are only theories and can't be proven.

Hello Mr. Lambert,

"Not a scientific effort," but then you say you have your own ideas, hypothesis, and theories. Why can't some part or even whole of what ideas you have developed over many years not be right? They absolutely can be. You are practicing science.

If you use selection to choose your breeding stock? You are using science.

Molecular Biology you can do experimentation, but guess what you can't see it. One could argue that you can't prove it as wel las argue you can prove it. The thing about real science is it always is a work in progress.

Welcome to the world of dog breeding Professor Lambert.

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 12-10-2019 07:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Let me go at you this way mr Finley’s trader dog was Nailor and clover I got that multiple times.

Are you forgetting about the bluetick on Traders bottom side?

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Posted by yadkintar on 12-10-2019 07:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
Are you forgetting about the bluetick on Traders bottom side?

Must have just slipped my mind lol.

Tar

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 12-10-2019 07:27 PM:

Did it also slip your mind that one of the best crosses on Bad Habit was off a bluetick bitch.....

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-10-2019 07:37 PM:

Donnie, that didn't fit in with his argument so he "forgot" it.

Mr Atherton, science deals in facts that can be proven. My hypothesis are a little cloudy and just floating around in my head. While I might refer to some of my breeding choices as "no brainers", they are in reality only educated guesses. There is nothing scientific about it.

Posted by yadkintar on 12-10-2019 07:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
Did it also slip your mind that one of the best crosses on Bad Habit was off a bluetick bitch.....

Shhhhhhhh your spillen the beans I was saving it for later lol.

Tar

Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-10-2019 08:03 PM:

Donnie, what criteria are you using to say that this was the "best" cross off Bad Habit? Were the pups the hardiest and most disease resistant?

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 12-10-2019 08:42 PM:

Richard I don't know enough to say it was the best cross but there was a real nice litter from Habit and a blue female (maybe more then one cross). Wasn't ole Sambo off just that kinda cross ?

I know nothing about hardy or healthy just about treein coons

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-10-2019 09:11 PM:

Are we talking about hardy or healthy, A+ coon dogs or tired blood? I keep getting confused. I guess that I am having a bad day.

Posted by Dave Richards on 12-10-2019 09:36 PM:

Mr. Lambert

Lol. You just have a bad case of redboneitis. Dave

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Posted by Reuben on 12-11-2019 01:59 AM:

Here is a scenario on how breeding depression happens...

A breeder can be producing top dogs for many years...he started out line breeding from some of the best dogs that were line bred with some inbreeding...as time goes by he actually gets better results such as higher percentages of pups making the grade and some dogs that are actually better than previous breedings...but after 25 years he has been breeding dogs that are closely related top and bottom and breeding depression is now starting to appear...testicles are smaller...smaller litters, dogs not as big or as strong...

As competition hunter he wants a strong athletic specimen of a dog because he is competing against the very best...

So at this time he finds a top specimen with a 50 percent of his bloodline with a 50 percent unrelated bloodline that is a top hunting dog that basically has all the traits he likes in a coon dog...this is what will boost the hybrid vigor...

If that option is not available then find that unrelated dog and breed it to your dog and then breed the best pup back to your line of dogs...exact same thing but a longer time to see results...

So if either cross didn’t work get rid of the pups and look elsewhere and repeat the process...hopefully it will nick on the first try...
Hybrid vigor...every once in a while hybrid vigor lines up perfectly mentally and physically with the right hunting traits...such as BIG COUNTRY AND SAMBO...

seems folks are confusing that hybrid vigor will automatically create better hunting dogs...hybrid vigor can improve a dogs health and mental powers but It does not mean it will automatically make a hunting dog...you can have also have healthy cull...

So bottom line for me...if I felt like I needed an outcross I would try to find a dog that compliments my dogs in every way possible especially if it can improve a weakness in my bloodline...

Usually line breeding does not lead to breeding depression because many times we can have close relatives and no relationship in a line bred pedigree...

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