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-- “Natural” vs “Man Made” Coondog (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928519791)

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Put your spin on it I am just waiting on dark. My dogs have several generations of night hunt titles to back up what I preach. Let er rip explain it instead of knocking !



Tar

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Originally posted by HOBO
You basically called me a liar and implied I didn’t know what I was talking about.... But I’m the one putting a spin on things and knocking someone?


I’m done with this.

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Just remember. All Coondogs are created equally unequal.

Here are a few things about naturals and feaks of nature as some call it.

They are a thing of beauty but for the world to recognize their difference. They have to end up in the right hands. They have to become known for their winning or breeding abilities. Thing is. The water is clouded with the "Well Known' hounds that are naturals and those that are manmade.

I have to have a natural to make some type of coon dog out of it. My dogs need to bring more to the table in ability because I lack in availability to hunt my hounds.

A natural hound will tree coon in spite of a poor owner/handler if given a slim chance and taken to the woods.

Now a natural in the right owner/trainers hands will become well known. But he is also becoming well known along side other winners. Many that are man made.

My personal dogs. If they are respected by me at my place. Are naturals. They have no competition from a man made dog here. Because there is no man here to make a dog. We just take one with natural abilities and allow it to mature.

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Bruce granny was bred to a well known stud I hate to admit it but the whole litter started running and treeing easily now for the first part that’s what she reproduced. There is a trait in the line that dog is out of that a lot of the pups start early running and treeing and treeing hard and classy. But the older they get the more inaccurate they get. I had two out of that litter they alone would drop in 500 yards or so get struck work the track just right anouther 500 yards or so locate get treed every breath you would man they did a good job they never had a coon I mean never !! Now the man made part I am a pretty good fixer I would try and move them on to tree the coon they were done they thought that was the end and go out there and hide. A lot of times dogs go to out running them on track they would tree out behind them on nothing. To young hunters they would have thought they had a natural to be only disappointed later.


Tar

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Tar, you did exactly what I thought you would do. Figure out a way to describe what someone else wrote to be wrong.

Thing is your right but just so argumentative you don't make any discussion on hounds positive for those wanting to learn.

First of all a dog can be a NATURAL track dog and awful at treeing coon. A dog can be a NATURAL treed dog and be awful at tracking which generally means with all its NATURAL ability to tree. You won't find many coon. Lot of parts to one being an overall NATURAL. The important thing is for the dog to have natural balance. Hunt, Track, Tree with a coon, wanting to please it's master. Then you have a coondog to be proud of.

That is where good handlers come in. They find one with the most natural ability then fine tune the rest to make the dog pleasurable to hunt.

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Re: .

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Tar, you did exactly what I thought you would do. Figure out a way to describe what someone else wrote to be wrong.

Thing is your right but just so argumentative you don't make any discussion on hounds positive for those wanting to learn.

First of all a dog can be a NATURAL track dog and awful at treeing coon. A dog can be a NATURAL treed dog and be awful at tracking which generally means with all its NATURAL ability to tree. You won't find many coon. Lot of parts to one being an overall NATURAL. The important thing is for the dog to have natural balance. Hunt, Track, Tree with a coon, wanting to please it's master. Then you have a coondog to be proud of.

That is where good handlers come in. They find one with the most natural ability then fine tune the rest to make the dog pleasurable to hunt.

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Thats the beauty of coon hunting. You can hunt with a bunch of people or it can just be you and your dog and the swamp at night. Your dog only has to please you. But everyone with a pup wants it to end up a coon hound. The more the dog brings to the equation. The better chance most have of accomplishing that. What the dog brings without training is Natural Ability. What the person molds and shapes from the dog with handling skills brings it all together.

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Why is EVERYONE ALWAYS PICKING ON TAR......lol !!!

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Thats the beauty of coon hunting. You can hunt with a bunch of people or it can just be you and your dog and the swamp at night. Your dog only has to please you. But everyone with a pup wants it to end up a coon hound. The more the dog brings to the equation. The better chance most have of accomplishing that. What the dog brings without training is Natural Ability. What the person molds and shapes from the dog with handling skills brings it all together.

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Dan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yadkintar
[B]Ruben in the coon hound world anybody that’s says you breed coondog to coondog and get coondogs is wrong there is no proven cross I don’t care how many generations you got behind them. That natural freak of nature is usually once in a breeders lifetime coonhounds are a complex animal and it takes all traits stacked in the right direction.


I have hog hunted most cast till they catch scent usually the hogs are not that far away and when jumped they run on sight to catch if it’s still like it was when I grew up where you are it did not take much of a talented dog to catch hogs they were thick. I got a freind that hog hunts down there I went to school with we hog hunted together he lives in Manvel tx his name is Larry Kettler.

Tar when you say there is no proven cross I have to disagree. I bred a female to the same male 8 times and the pups out of the last litter was as good as the first. Sold them with a guarantee of money back or a replacement pup. Out of 8 litters I got one back. Wouldn't you call that a proven cross? In an earlier discussion we had you said you didn't have to hunt with a dog before breeding to it just go by how it's bred, now if the cull female pup I got back was never hunted and used as a brood female would you just soon have a pup from her as her sister that was a top dog? To me a brood female is one that I want a pup that is just as good as her or better. This is just a discussion

I don’t think that’s how I said it. I have hunted with all the studs I have bred to except the last one and my female did not stick. But more importantly most of the dogs I bred to I waited till they were up in age to see what they produced. A couple won world championships and they were bred just like I like but they have never reproduced nothing. For instance yadkin tar chief dirrect out of rattler was the sire of my grntch yadkin tar deacon my once in a lifetime dog. I took grch ntch macie (granny’s littermate ) out of deacon and bred her back to her grand father chief .


All three dogs were proven reproducers on anything it turned out to be a litter of complete duds I have came from every angle to get anouther deacon it ain’t happened.


Buuuuut what I think what I said was a pup when it takes it’s first breath it already has its reproducing ability’s hunting them is just to make us feel better and in today’s world winning $$$ outways reproducing ability they don’t even care what they are out of they don’t breed them.

In my mind the word "Natural" does not always equate with the word "Top". - Tar

Bingo!!! That was kinda my motive here, to see if y’all thought a “top” hound could be made from anything other than the allusive natural’s.

Agreed that a pup has it's reproducing ability at it's first breath. Whether good or bad but by hunting it I can tell if it has good enough traits to be considered worthy of breeding.

Now where's Richard and Hobo when I need them?lol

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Originally posted by yadkinriver
Now where's Richard and Hobo when I need them?lol

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She was probably just mad at you Tar!

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Originally posted by 2ol2hunt
She was probably just mad at you Tar!

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It seems sometimes when we are discussing a topic in general like on this thread or in any other thread...that the general consensus is of one opinion and then someone’s comment is totally the opposite of what everyone is saying...

Well it is ok to do so because everyone is entitled to their own opinion...and sometimes the thread goes south from there...

An example I will use...

If 40 comments 40 different folks are in agreement that natural pups will grow to be the better hunting dogs and then the 41st comment that person says no way and feels strongly about it...like I already said...it is ok to go against the grain...


I will also say this...when the majority are in agreement on a certain opinion, and many of the commentators have years of experience then it is a safe bet to say that they are right...

And like anything else...the more data gathered the more accurate it becomes...

If 95 people out of 100 say that pups born to hunt naturally as pups and will grow up to make excellent hunting dogs then it is a no brainer...I will select for natural every time...

Common sense in this example should override the negative comment or should I say the comment that goes against the grain...

We all know that just because most natural pups go on to become excellent hunting dogs that there will be a few that won’t make it...many times it will be handler error...

Sometimes someone writes an excellent post and the next person picks a small comment from that post and tries there best to turn that small comment into something big and negative...kind of like a prosecuting attorney would do...a lot of times the comment might not be a negative comment but maybe it is in the way it was presented...never mind all the other excellent comments on that super post...lol

Most of the times it is easy to see the games some people play...🧐

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Reuben done this thing my whole life but I am still learning one thing I don’t know if your dogs are like hounds or not is there are lines of hounds that at 15 months old you are very proud of them and they are beating older dogs treeing coons consistantly All you had to do was expose them to the woods and coons and they progressed into nice dogs. You told your freinds he is a natural born coondog. Then boom they blow up for no reason and they can’t do nothing right and compile numerous faults that you or nobody else can live with you or nobody else can fix it. So in my opinion if that dog is a natural when young he should still be a natural in his old age. If they fall apart at any time and they hold no value as a coondog they were not a natural. And if the man can’t fix them they were not man made either.


They got to make it to the finish line to count.

Tar

Imho

You can have a natural that won't win a hunt. You can have a "man made" dog that will win a pile. But the chances of the MM winning consistently for more than a few years is unlikely. The more natural the pup is the better chance of it turning out to be a decent dog. The type of "natural" that most are talking about is the ones that need very little training to be top hounds at any level in the coonhound world. I've never seen a pup that was a complete natural for my standards or anyone else that I hunt with. I've seen really good young dogs, decent young dogs and culls win hunts. But what I like in a hound a bunch don't. And I'll see certain traits no one else picks up on for a while, I don't raise pups and don't want to. The thing about the "natural" dogs is there's so many ruined by inexperienced trainers to know exactly how many are really produced. And yes there's way more MM than the other. But most MM dogs have a bunch of natural talent to begin with. You cannot teach drive, heart, and grit. You can refine those traits but you cannot make a dog hunt that wasn't born with drive enough to go. You can't teach one how to take corrections, or hunt when they're hurt or not feeling good. And I've never been able to teach one or seen one that would stay treed with the devil that didn't want to. I want natural ability enough to tree a coon to start with, after that ill refine what I don't like or want the young dog to do differently. Which is where the "natural" in many eyes doesn't need any type of refinement. But and a big but, just because the dog was a true natural for you doesn't mean he's a true natural for me. And if I was going to bet on 1 being a natural for me, I wouldn't put any $ on it. I don't think it would ever happen. I want a top hound in every category, not just one category.

And Tar, that line of hounds you need to that started having blanks, a common trait for them around that age to go through a spell of hardly ever having the eyes. And then like a light switch it'll flip and go back to treeing coons. You had to hunt it out of the slump. Most dogs have slumps but that line has a 2 year period where all's you do is take it for exercise basically from everything I've seen out of them.

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I will show you two images and one is Elephants doing something naturally and one is an Elephant doing something unnatural.





Elephants are born to be able to accomplish what some marvel at in the first photo. Don't take anyone special to teach them because it is natural.

Standing on their head is a different story and takes someone that knows how to train them.

Same with our dogs. Some things are or should be natural for them to do. The more natural ability they have the easier they are to train.

If you don't breed for natural ability that years of breeding has brought us. Then they have go do to someone that has to know how to train them. The more natural ability they have the less the person owning one has to know.

Me and Tar could own a lot of elephants before we figured out how to make one stand on its head. Then when we bred that elephant we would have to start all over training again. We want our hounds to have natural ability and with love and care and opportunity. Allow that natural ability to cause the animal to perform in a way so we don't have to train as hard. That is what years of breeding brings us if done the right way.

You see it in the questions asked on this board all the time. People have dogs that won't leave their feet. Won't run or track nothing. Won't bark at a coon in a cage. Won't look up a tree. Yes you can probably train that dog. But it sure isn't showing narural ability in which it should be bred for. It is also one you should not waste your time breeding to get your next generation of hound either. Why. You should be breeding to improve performance that come naturally.

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Eric it’s to ruff and coons are to thin for me to put up with it. I have seen a couple that made nice dogs two of my buddy’s each have one that are nice but that is not the norm.



Tar

I'm not a competition hound man. Never have been, never will be. A true Natural born coon hound, would not go for 2 years pulling up and setting anchor on empty trees consistently.

True houndsmen, in my definition, don't knowingly push their hounds to perform when they are injured or suffering from disease. True houndsmen appreciate and care enough about their hounds to know when it's time to pull their hounds out of the hunt and let them recouperate and heal.

Yeah.............I'll take some heat for this one........I'm a big boy! LOL!

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Originally posted by DL NH
I'm not a competition hound man. Never have been, never will be. A true Natural born coon hound, would not go for 2 years pulling up and setting anchor on empty trees consistently.

True houndsmen, in my definition, don't knowingly push their hounds to perform when they are injured or suffering from disease. True houndsmen appreciate and care enough about their hounds to know when it's time to pull their hounds out of the hunt and let them recouperate and heal.

Yeah.............I'll take some heat for this one........I'm a big boy! LOL!

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DL NH why would you take any heat for those statements. Pretty accurate in my opinion.
Not only will a natural born hound that was well handled not consistently pull up on slick trees. Any coon hunter in their right mind would not put up with it.

We have competition hunts and we have competition hunts. There is a difference in the top leven hunts and one just to take pictures for facebook.

If your going to a top level hunt and plan on winning. It would not be in your best interest to take any dog not feeling good or acting well and expect to win.

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