UKC Forums - Adviser vs. rule book

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-- Adviser vs. rule book (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928510883)

Posted by yadkintar on 10-24-2018 01:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
Allen ,

In the winter time here a BIG hill country boar will run like a Cheetah and take you on an Adventure .( I actually had this type of race Fri night.) I highly advise you to leave your TT15 at home if it parallels your logic of scratching a dog cause if you ever come down to hunt you may just ruin that dog of yours

BTW , you never did answer my question either.

🏃🏃🏃🏃🏃🏃

Posted by wjoey on 10-24-2018 02:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
Alan I have another one for you ,
4 dog cast all dogs are struck in my dog comes back you minus him strike points but he has the strong smell of skunk on him are you scratching me?

I will answer that ,no , Surely you can do better than that

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Posted by wjoey on 10-24-2018 02:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
First off I find it HILARIOUS that you would know my dog better than i so lets just say this....
If my dog was "possibly" running junk and you "thought" it was and you scratched me to get an advantage cause im putting it on you and you are wanting to eliminate me and then a few minutes later my dog gets treed . Then What ?

I d say you should have known the rules better if you allow that to happen . Gota do better than that

Posted by shawnstovall on 10-24-2018 02:55 PM:

Allen you know as well as I do we can work on rule changes for days on days and submit 10 or was it 11 and not even one get approved. Remember that.
So here's my thought on this everyone needs to submit there rule changes to there breeds let there breeds review those rule changes and then they submit them to UKC after they have reviewed them. UKC then reviews them and then put them on here to voted on by the public and not just two reps from each breed.

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Posted by Toad Hill on 10-24-2018 03:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wjoey
I will answer that ,no , Surely you can do better than that

Joey ,

what do you mean by " surely you can do better than that " ..?

I cant tell if youre being smart or serious.? Tar is the only one i can read and understand ( guess we share the same sense of humor) .

Posted by yadkintar on 10-24-2018 03:44 PM:

Believe me I know joe well he is a nut just like us he was joking you just don't know the stuff we pull on each other might be why I got thick hide you get mad they just keep pouring it on lol.

Tar

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-24-2018 03:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
...Believe me I know joe well he is a nut.....
Tar

Tarbaby, didn't you already get banned once for name calling on here? You would think that you would have learned something from that.

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-24-2018 03:54 PM:

Originally posted by Toad Hill
Alan I have another one for you ,
4 dog cast all dogs are struck in my dog comes back you minus him strike points but he has the strong smell of skunk on him are you scratching me?
I will answer that ,no , Surely you can do better than that
^^^ Well Joey according to Allen he should be Scratched just by speculation/common sense. I didnt say i would allow it ! I was just asking a question and giving a scenario

Here you go Joey ...

True story it Happened in a UKC World hunt many years ago. Possum crosses road guide pulls truck over says were cutting here . Guys in cast saw the possum and didnt say anything everyone gets out Guide has them cut towards possum . ALL dogs struck and BLOWS up hard treed every breath . The guy tellin me the story said we all knew what was going on so he said mine aint leaving will be here all night so just tree Jack !!! the 3 other guys tree in also.
While walking to tree ( but before getting to tree ) one walker dog comes crawling up to cast on his belly like a border collie Judge says your dog is minused !! They continue to Walk to tree 3 dogs found treed under the grinner all 3 dogs scratched . The walker dog that crawled into cast was minused even though EVERYONE including the judge KNEW the walker dog was at the tree treed. Walker dog wins cast and advances .
Fair or Not ?
How would you have scored it ? Same way ? or Scratch The walker dog also ?

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-24-2018 03:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
An honest handler would just snap his dog and head to the truck. Why would the judge have to scratch you? Rule says dogs are scratched for molesting or trailing off game.

How do you know he was "molesting" a skunk Richard ?

Posted by yadkintar on 10-24-2018 03:56 PM:

Yeah and your the one did it too!! Because you were trying to teach me a lesson huh ?

Tarbaby

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-24-2018 03:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wjoey
I d say you should have known the rules better if you allow that to happen . Gota do better than that

ONCE AGAIN.....Never said i'd allow it Joey. It was just a question

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-24-2018 04:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
How do you know he was "molesting" a skunk Richard ?

Because the skunk got mad and sprayed him.
But I have never seen a dog get minused or scratched for smelling like a skunk. Apparently there are only 2 things that you don't have to "see", deer race and dog fight. Actually, I have never seen a dog minused or scratched for running a deer unless the deer was seen. But I have seen plenty of dogs scratched for fighting when the fight wasn't seen.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-24-2018 04:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wjoey
I d say you should have known the rules better if you allow that to happen . Gota do better than that

Isn't anything you could do if you have a non-hunting judge or hunting judge and the cast voted, no MOH or panel will overturn their decision. That is my point of the whole thing if you draw a cast that wants you eliminated there is no recourse even though they had no proof. Many judges are good honest people but there is not one person on here or that has hunted in a hunt that hasn't drawn the cast that would be more than happy to scratch a dog that is winning just because they know they can get away with it.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-24-2018 04:40 PM:

Maybe we need a rule that says each cast must have 3 honest handlers in it.

Posted by TylerOSU on 10-24-2018 04:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Maybe we need a rule that says each cast must have 3 honest handlers in it.

We already have "Honor Rules" for that!

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-24-2018 04:57 PM:

Maybe the judge could just ask each handler at the beginning if they are going to be honorable. If they say no then he could scratch them right then. If they say yes and then don't later on, he can just scratch them then for being dishonorable.
If a less than honorable hunter tries to enter a hunt, then the MOH could just refuse his entry.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-24-2018 05:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
It has always been my understanding that interference is only required to meet the criteria for "attempting to fight". Fighting is fighting no interference required.

You are correct.

Posted by TylerOSU on 10-24-2018 05:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Maybe the judge could just ask each handler at the beginning if they are going to be honorable. If they say no then he could scratch them right then. If they say yes and then don't later on, he can just scratch them then for being dishonorable.
If a less than honorable hunter tries to enter a hunt, then the MOH could just refuse his entry.

What we should do is at the beginning of the year have everyone walk to their treed dog by themselves and shine a tree then leave their dog treed and come back to the panel. The ones that say their dog had a coon the panel cant find it are barred for a year! I have some hunting partners that has 100% accurate dogs when they go get their own dog alone. LOL

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-24-2018 05:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
When they rolling on the ground that is being interfered with the ability to tree is gone. If the aggressor is know it is scratched if they are both the aggressor or it is not know upon arrival they both are. This still cannot be judged from afar properly and criteria for heading into the tree is already on the books no need for rash judgement without seeing it and making calls from a distance that could be hundreds of yards away.

Jen, are you sure this is the way Chey understands the rule to be interpreted? Sounds like the way it is done in a different registry. I have hunted plenty long enough to know what an all out dog fight sounds like without having to lay eyes on the actual fight. So do 100's of others. I'm not talking about "possibly, could be's or might be's". I'm going to have to agree to disagree. If you're suggesting this is the way it should be opposed to the way UKC has always suggested, then forgive me for misunderstanding your post.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-24-2018 05:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
Alan I have another one for you ,
4 dog cast all dogs are struck in my dog comes back you minus him strike points but he has the strong smell of skunk on him are you scratching me?

Never.

Posted by TylerOSU on 10-24-2018 05:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Jen, are you sure this is the way Chey understands the rule to be interpreted? Sounds like the way it is done in a different registry. I have hunted plenty long enough to know what an all out dog fight sounds like without having to lay eyes on the actual fight. So do 100's of others. I'm not talking about "possibly, could be's or might be's". I'm going to have to agree to disagree. If you're suggesting this is the way it should be opposed to the way UKC has always suggested, then forgive me for misunderstanding your post.

Alan I think you're both right. To me the fighting thing is interpretation like the rest. There's a difference from a dog running the tree and falling on a dog and causing it to face bark vs a dog covering a 4:45 seconds and legitimately trying to run one off. Now in UKC I've seen them get scratched for a growl. I do feel like it takes less to get scratched for aggressive behavior in UKC which in some cases is good I guess.

Posted by yadkintar on 10-24-2018 06:35 PM:

I am confused you want to scratch a dog for running speed beef least he is running somthing !! You should scratch them for running haints that's means they are running nothens jmo.

Tar

Posted by TylerOSU on 10-24-2018 06:43 PM:

Funny Story

So this kind of goes with the whole running off game thing. So two weeks ago we had the OK State hunt. I was hunting Ntch judging and guiding. We cut the dogs and 2 opened about 400 yards in front of us and basically fell treed, one opened right handed about 50-60 yards of the other two and mine opened considerably deeper (4-500 yards). Two handlers tree their dogs the 3rd guys dog end up working back towards the treed dogs but he doesn't tree. When we get there, there is 1 dog in the tree, and one dog on the ground. The 3rd dog that was right handed is backed off the tree about 15 yards treeing the dog that's in the tree (in my opinion). Its a fairly small persimmon tree and I really figured there wouldn't be anything to look at... Well ole smiley was there on the back side so they were scratched. I felt for the guy's young dog that was legitimately treeing off sight of the dog in the tree... He pleaded a good case about his wasn't treeing the opossum and I don't think he was... But I had no choice but to scratch him lol

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-24-2018 07:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
I agree with THAT but the both of us know thats not how it goes these days Neither of us fell out of a tree and bumped our heads.

OK OK Ok Ok ...Take the advantage part outta my question and answer it.
If my dog was "possibly" running junk and you "thought" it was and you scratched me and then a few minutes later my dog gets treed . Then What ? You gonna remove the scratch ?

Probably not, if I had no zero reservations and felt the call was the right call.

Fact is, I have personally scratched very few dogs, if any that I remember, for running deer without actually seeing the deer. That said, more times than not, the benefit of the doubt favored the dogs.

This topic brings to mind a hunt some years ago. One where it was painfully obvious what the dogs were running. We all dang well knew it.

Three dog cast. Within seconds of turning loose, two dogs struck red hot and burned out across an open field. One dog comes back and cowered around the cast for a minute before wandering off into the woods to our right. When that one dog came back, the dad of the one handler got in his truck and sped off down the road without saying a word to us. In a matter of no time the dogs had covered a half mile where they hit the woven wire fence by the road and both handlers called their dogs treed. That lasted about five seconds until they got across the fence and the race was back on. Against our better judgment, we headed across the field in their direction.

Across that next road was another open field that led to a woods a quarter mile or so from the road. Guess who met up with us at the road? Dad had a few choice words for the dog he was feeding. He commenced to tell us that he got to this road in time to see the deer cross and tried to get his hands on the dogs when they got hung up on the fence for a second.

And yes, the same two dogs were eventually handled on a tree in those woods off in the distance.

The moral of the story is; maybe we could/should also put more emphasis on doing the right thing sometimes when it's painfully obvious instead of making lame excuses that no one would buy any other night of the week. If the situation calls for giving the dogs the benefit of the doubt, do it. If there's no question DO THE RIGHT THING and make the call! The sport is better served for it.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-24-2018 07:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by TylerOSU
Alan I think you're both right. To me the fighting thing is interpretation like the rest. There's a difference from a dog running the tree and falling on a dog and causing it to face bark vs a dog covering a 4:45 seconds and legitimately trying to run one off. Now in UKC I've seen them get scratched for a growl. I do feel like it takes less to get scratched for aggressive behavior in UKC which in some cases is good I guess.

Yeah, scratching for a growl alone would not meet the criteria of "attempting to fight".

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