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-- Black and Tan Bones (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928473456)

Interesting

It sure was an interesting discussion anyway.

__________________
Darrin Gher
Elbridge Redbones
Home of
GRNTCH PR' Steve-O and Chili's Red Flow
NTCH PR' Twisters Musical Red Huey DNA-VIP Perf Sire 06'07 Deceased 11/07
Former Home of
NTCH 'PR' Swann's Lonesome Red Music/ Kitty
NTCH. CH PR' SawBlade Red Reckon
NTCH. CH PR' Gher's Timber Mt. Brandy
Breeder of
GRNTCH PR' Daugherty's Red BUBBA
NTCH CH PR' BA'S Tree Top Rockin Griddle
NTCH PR' Lickcreek Backwoods Lil Red Annie

Herschel, that is why I said I'd hate to see shows stop at hound events. That white coon you talked about...it isn't a coon. It can't be a coon, it didn't have a ringtail associated with a TRUE coon. Now as you know me, I am joshin'. Of course it is a coon. Nature determines what man can't. As I said, I prefer an ALL red dog. Would it stop me from breeding to a non-standard Redbone? Nope. Papers don't make the dog, nature and the line makes the offspring. We have absolutely no control over it. If that were the case we'd all have the best litter of puppies for both on the bench and in the woods. Gotta get ready to go to a bench show and see how my hunting hound compares to another hound. Wonder if the other wins if they would compare theirs in the woods.

Yes Darrin, it was interesting and shows there is some difference amongst us on who thinks they can control nature, in this case our Redbones.

Oh my goodness, And here I thought the difference of opinion was on whether you should be able to register a black and tan colored pup as a Redbone or not.

If the pups are registered as Xbreed can't they be shown and hunted, resulting in the stud still getting credited for producing winners, what is the problem? They DO NOT meet breed standards, but they can still
Be hunted and shown as XBreeds, they should be bred as xbreds to!!!! I personally see no need to cull such well bred pups, just put them in there place and move on!!!!! Geez
If they were tricolored would there even be a discussion?????

No show for x-bred. Richard, that was the discussion but the albino coon is proof that MAN can not control nature. Yep, we can make a standard but it ends there....a standard is OUR desire. If it was that easy we wouldn't be having this discussion. Again, I know my preference is alot like many....we have a "strain" of Redbones that has the off color in it. A "strain" that has been registered for many generations. Lately they have had to meet a standard. Any pups in this strain carry on the traits of the parents, be it a dominant trait or recessive. No one is arguing with me, its nature they have the problem with.

Back in the day when fur was valuable nice coats were made of coon fur .The common grey with some black was the standard and would bring good money. People would expect a coon skin coat to look like that . Off color coons were still coons but the price would drop and some a fur buyer wouldn't even buy. The standard for a Redbone is predominately Red there is nothing that says %100 no black hair or mussels . If your Redbone is black and tan then like the off color coon it has no value as a Redbone but as a X bred Hound you can be equal in competition.

__________________
Rick Pruitt
580-924-0176
Home of:
GRNITECH GRCH PRUITT'S REBEL RED(GRNITECH GRCH PR KEYS OUTLAW RAZOR RED XGRCH CCH TREE RIZIN SOME KINDA WONDERFUL)
GRNITECH PRUITT'S BUCK (NITE CHAMPION PRUITT'S CHIEF X PRUITT'S MISS MOLLY)
NITE CHAMPION PRUITT'S CHIEF ( GRCH GRNITECH T-TOP DARK TIMBER MOOSE CH SOGGYBOTTOM LOCKET DOWN )
NITECH CH 'PR' TREE RIZIN' RAZOR'S RUSH ( RIP )(GRNITECH GRCH' KEY'S OUTLAW RAZOR RED X GRNITECH GRCH'PR' SOGGY BOTTOM T-TOP SHADOW)
NITECH PRUITT'S MAGGIE MAE (GRNITECH THE RED ROCKER X GRNITECH CH PR GUITAR'S GHOST MISSISSIPPI )
PRUITT'S MISS MOLLY ( CH YELLOW RIVER RED COPPER X FICKEN'S LATE NIGHT STAR )

Didn't say the off-colored Redbone had or didn't have any value. I personally put as much value on one of them as I would one with ANY white on it, one with short ears, pointed head. See, there are many things that lowers the value. The discussion isn't about value BUT man trying to dictate to nature and when we loose we try to get rid of the problem and say it doesn't exist. There is nothing wrong with labeling them x-bred EXCEPT x-bred is thought to be MIXED breed and that isn't what OFF COLORED Redbones are. The 3 pups I had were registered as x-bred. However, if they end up in hands of someone other then who orginally got them could see them as being a VERY GOOD looking B&T and breed to one having what would be a true x-breed. However, bred to a Redbone could very well produce and in theory should produce all red puppies unless of course the female had the recessed gene of B&T.
My puppies, although x-bred will show the lineage of being from PR Redbones. As long as future owners pays attention to the papers and not a standard (color) we could very well see the next best Redbone coming from something that didn't meet a standard.

X-Bred

My understanding: X-Bred is not just for cross bred dogs, it's also for dogs of unknown ancestry or for pure bred dogs that don't meet the BREED standard. The Redbone Association decides and sets the standard or the rules of the game. Ukc just takes care of registration. The Association is made up of a bunch of members that vote on standards and vote on lots of other things. Nature doesn't set the standard in this case, people do.
It makes no difference to me what color your dogs are or anyone Else's are, but the rules are the rules. If you and enough other people want the rules changed you'll need to go vote for rule (Standard) changes.
Many years ago several people wanted to breed for an all Red dog (or nearly all red) so that's where it started.
Some black markings should be added to the standard "at least". Lots of Registered Redbones have black markings.

__________________
Darrin Gher
Elbridge Redbones
Home of
GRNTCH PR' Steve-O and Chili's Red Flow
NTCH PR' Twisters Musical Red Huey DNA-VIP Perf Sire 06'07 Deceased 11/07
Former Home of
NTCH 'PR' Swann's Lonesome Red Music/ Kitty
NTCH. CH PR' SawBlade Red Reckon
NTCH. CH PR' Gher's Timber Mt. Brandy
Breeder of
GRNTCH PR' Daugherty's Red BUBBA
NTCH CH PR' BA'S Tree Top Rockin Griddle
NTCH PR' Lickcreek Backwoods Lil Red Annie

I think the Standard sets limits on white but not on black as long as the dog is predominantly red or am I reading the way I want to.

__________________
Rick Pruitt
580-924-0176
Home of:
GRNITECH GRCH PRUITT'S REBEL RED(GRNITECH GRCH PR KEYS OUTLAW RAZOR RED XGRCH CCH TREE RIZIN SOME KINDA WONDERFUL)
GRNITECH PRUITT'S BUCK (NITE CHAMPION PRUITT'S CHIEF X PRUITT'S MISS MOLLY)
NITE CHAMPION PRUITT'S CHIEF ( GRCH GRNITECH T-TOP DARK TIMBER MOOSE CH SOGGYBOTTOM LOCKET DOWN )
NITECH CH 'PR' TREE RIZIN' RAZOR'S RUSH ( RIP )(GRNITECH GRCH' KEY'S OUTLAW RAZOR RED X GRNITECH GRCH'PR' SOGGY BOTTOM T-TOP SHADOW)
NITECH PRUITT'S MAGGIE MAE (GRNITECH THE RED ROCKER X GRNITECH CH PR GUITAR'S GHOST MISSISSIPPI )
PRUITT'S MISS MOLLY ( CH YELLOW RIVER RED COPPER X FICKEN'S LATE NIGHT STAR )

You are correct of your understanding on x-bred. However, that is what my point was...the offspring, my 3 anyhow were KNOWN. Two PR bred Redbones with a recorded history of being such. Doc pointed to the fact that a different color dog was introduced. If it was done once I am sure it was done twice. Perhaps early on before being put into registration.

You are also correct on being x-bred because of not meeting breed standard. I wonder why just those with a color problem is the only x-bred hound. There are several things that disqualify a dog from being shown in a show but doesn't take affect in the woods.

Changing the standard? Nope, I don't believe the standard should be changed. I prefer all Red and wouldn't be feeding one with any white or with B&T markings. However, I would breed to one with such. I wasn't meaning to sound like I was fighting. I was just pointing to the fact of where the breed came from on the name, it wasn't color...it was a breeders last name. Nature will determine genetics not man. That is why when we go to the doctors that ask if our genetics has a HISTORY of medical problems. So it is in the animal world. My strain of Redbone has B&T genes. Another good friend has a white gene. And I am sure just because none of you against color has had it happen to you eventually, if you breed dogs rather then buy one it WILL happen to you. Or worse yet, have a genetic problem pop up, like retained (inhereited) gene.

I read it like you Rick. The B&T we know came from B&T. To me, ANY white came from somewhere else too and we are afraid to admit....a WALKER. None the less a small amount is allowed. What is a small amount? How many in the litter had more? How many in the litter have that gene but it is recessive. Eventually, being bred to another hound with the same recessive gene being now a dominant gene. We now have more x-bred pups that in theory are Redbones.

I would say any offspring from PR parents that don't meet the standard, in our case ALL red should be registered as Redbones...not x-bred but will be disqualified from ADVANCING in a show. There should be no problem in a night hunt. Does it matter on a standard in a night hunt? I don't believe so. Would I show a non-standard meeting hound? No. But someone would, just like they do any other hound that doesn't meet the standard. Our standard in this case is built on color. Why does it allow one off color but not another. I thought those opposing the B&T in color was breeding for color, allowing for a color that they have in their line....more people have that Walker in them then the B&T I guess.

20 SHADES OF RED

I just leave my yellow white chested white footed junk in the truck until dark...

See ya in the timber..

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Love to go huntin' with ya Larry...those hidden secrets are usually the best.

YES SIR COME ON OUT

My Fishcreek dogs may sometimes push the maximum of the minimum according to our color standards..

But now thanks to X-Breeds I no longer have to knock those in the head..I have started a secondary kennel I call them

WALKERS REDBONES,,, be looking for them in the coming future..

I just wonder what the breed/color standards were of MR Redbone himself...

Hunt and Breed what suites ya..and if it suites others then that's just a bonus

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Thank you for adding to the discussion, like you added words ALOT....

Hunt and breed what suits ya, if others like it too then that is an added bonus. I prefer to make sure the line is PR bred Redbones, what nature gives me is going to happen. I too appreciate UKC seeing the need where associations slip up.

Re: YES SIR COME ON OUT

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry D Walker
My Fishcreek dogs may sometimes push the maximum of the minimum according to our color standards..

But now thanks to X-Breeds I no longer have to knock those in the head..I have started a secondary kennel I call them

WALKERS REDBONES,,, be looking for them in the coming future..

I just wonder what the breed/color standards were of MR Redbone himself...

Hunt and Breed what suites ya..and if it suites others then that's just a bonus

---

__________________
Acsai kennel

"If you aren't first your last"

GRNITCH PKC HTX BONES X HAMMER
(BONE X SWEET TEA)

PR ACSAI INSANE CAINS GRACEY
(Bone collector X Jessie jane)

Recently happened to me

About a year ago I bred a PR DNA VIP Redbone to a PR DNA VIP Redbone and there were 5 pups in the titter of which 2 were B&T... I called UKC and was told the Red ones in the litter would be Redbones and the B&T would be X-Breed..This really didn't upset me until they told me that the X-Breed pup cannot produce a redbone.. Three generations had to be breed back before they can be a redbone again..This is the part I don't agree with.. The pup was not a cross bred pup... so that rule should not apply.. I have always believed that the show community...that was original an extra activity at a hunt have taken over... I think all HOUNDS should be required to have an HTX title and at least a 1st toward NTCH at a minimum before being placed on the bench... The goal is to produce the best COONDOG not the best show dog.. To use an annalagy you can't take an art sculpture to a car show?? It must be able to be driven somewhere to be a car... The show people have their own sport they are called "Dog Shows"... Now back to the B&T Redbone.. If I breed that pup to a redbone and all the pups come out red they should be registered as Redbones.. There is no "cross breeding" that occurred... The Rule says the pup must be 80% well the pup is 100% so how is it not eligible...

__________________
Old Time Grit Kennel
"Honesty Above All"
Deon Collins 270-985-8558
PR CH NITECH HTX Old Time Grit TSUNAMI (2 Win Toward Grand)
PR Old Time Grit Mystique (full sister to Tsunami)
PR Old Time Grit Slick (2 First RIP) (BANJoxHeidi)
NITECH Josie (Banjo III x Heidi)
PUP Rodeo Grit MaeB (GrNT May x Pigeon River Big Jim)
PUP RODEO GRIT LUNA (Penny x Pistol)


"If a dog can't tree a Coon by itself with out another dog or the owner walking it over a track it ain't a COONDOG".

"Without Grit You Can't Have A COONDOG"

Oh my goodness Deon, I realize that a lot of people think that the goal is to produce a good Coonhound. But there are also a whole lot of people that think the goal is to produce a good Redbone Coonhound that meets our standards. And if the pups are 100% Redbone then why do they look like a black and tan? If you have pups that crop out as black and tan colored, register them as X-bred and go on. Hit happens. It doesn't matter what the papers say or how good of a Coondog they are. If they come out black and tan colored, they aren't 100% Redbones. Y'all keep talking about nature and how you can't change it. Well nature is trying to tell y'all something but I guess that you just aren't listening.

Yes Richard nature is trying to tell us something and some aren't listening. Two PR redbones that are both GRAND SHOW champions produced a litter of pups that produce offspring that didn't meet a STANDARD setup by man rather a STANDARD setup by nature. Where did the off-color or other DEFECT come from? DNA will PROVE who the parents are. Why is it that the pups produced from this cross that meet the standard are ok, the ones that don't meet the standard other then color are ok but the ones that don't meet the standard because of color are considered x-bred. Two PR bred Redbones can produce off colored hounds. An off-colored PR Redbone can produce a standard meeting Redbone. Now if what Deon says, an x-bred Redbone from PR parents is used in breeding to a Redbone and produces all standard meeting hounds and is registered as x-bred then I too have a problem with it. I was told they wouldn't be x-bred because the pedigree shows they are Redbones but doesn't meet a standard, to smooth things over with a group of people they are x-bred. Something just ain't adding up here. And when HUNTERS point out the fact that there is actually two groups of Redbone people many jump on the band wagon saying it isn't true, we are all one. Why shouldn't the group look at getting back to our roots of HUNTING and listen to each other then one sde. Seems to me that Deon Collins and myself see things alike. I'm not to sure how things were before the registration process but I would put my money on it was just about hunting.

To me, our roots prove that it was more important to be able to hunt then color. Why isn't this ability in our standard as well? If the standard was changed to include that they need to prove themself as a hunter it would make both sides equal, those against a color standard and those against a hunting standard.

I wish I could delete this post on my computer, but it is like a car wreck, I just can't look away. lol.

__________________
Home of the Red Solo Cup

Sorry RedScorpion but somethings touch a nerve with individuals. This being one of the things with me. Not loosing any sleep over it though. Just discussing it and see there are a couple of folks that feel as I do. As well as some who walk the middle because they choose to be politically correct and don't want to cause riff. Yet there are others who disagree because they desire to live by a standard because they only do one thing with their hound.....show, its easier to beat a HUNTING Redbone and the standard is leaned in their favor. Again, I don't believe the standard to allow any color BUT I would love to see the standard changed to see that the hound is proven to be a coondog in the woods or field event.

PR Who Created It?

Richard I had no problem registering the pup as a X-Breed... However who added the PR to my dog? It wasn't me.... So let me get this straight UKC came up with a "Purple Ribbon Standard" but when nature throws it a curve we change the Standard... It sounds to me like the problem is with their own rule... I still have no problem with registering a B&T pup as a X Breed but if I breed that pup to a redbone and a pup from that litter meets the redbone breed standard they should be registered as a Redbone.. The below is from the UKC Page.. Notice the 80% standard... If you look at the 3 generation pedigree where my B&T bone (out of two PR Redbones) is breed to a PR Redbone the results would meet this standard... But UKC says no...Basically what UKC is claiming is that you can't look behind the X-Breed for the percentage only in front of it and that is wrong....

Can hounds in the X-Bred category ever achieve pure-bred status?
Yes. Offspring produced as a result of breeding an X-Bred Coonhound will be considered eligible for pure-bred status if; · The UKC Chartered Breed Association for that breed has voted to accept breed transfers. (Note: will be voted on annually.)
AND
· The offspring’s’ pedigree is 80% pure. (Meaning, not more than one dog in the third generation is of a breed different than the breed being applied for)
AND
· The dog meets the UKC Breed Standard for that breed as interpreted by UKC.

__________________
Old Time Grit Kennel
"Honesty Above All"
Deon Collins 270-985-8558
PR CH NITECH HTX Old Time Grit TSUNAMI (2 Win Toward Grand)
PR Old Time Grit Mystique (full sister to Tsunami)
PR Old Time Grit Slick (2 First RIP) (BANJoxHeidi)
NITECH Josie (Banjo III x Heidi)
PUP Rodeo Grit MaeB (GrNT May x Pigeon River Big Jim)
PUP RODEO GRIT LUNA (Penny x Pistol)


"If a dog can't tree a Coon by itself with out another dog or the owner walking it over a track it ain't a COONDOG".

"Without Grit You Can't Have A COONDOG"

Deon...doesn't sound to me like UKC has the problem, they are helping us out. It is our own association that is having the problem, we are the ones making the standard. Problem is we are trying to keep our membership high by trying to appease to two groups of people. Like what was mentioned....this topic is like polictics and religion.