UKC Forums - Strike point suggestion

Pages (4): « First ... « 2 3 [4]
Show all 96 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Strike point suggestion (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928430805)

Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 08:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Why were the rules changed to give the one minute grace period each turnout? I do remember people getting ticked off for getting scratched because they said their babbler was not a babbler, he/she was just cold nosed.

I believe it might have been because that old rule wasn't enforced either so they switched to the current babbling rule, which really doesn't work either. So, guess I am back to my suggestion as something that might help.
AKC's babbling rule was a rule made because nothing else had been working and it was an effort to not give the babblers as much of an advantage. Only problem with their rule is that one cast could be getting 1st strike for 100, where as the cast with the babblers would be going in for no more than 50 for strike, but their registry is not based on high scores but just beating the dogs that you draw out with. Lowering first strike to 75 would do basically the same thing, as far as the babblers go, but wouldn't change from cast to cast the amount of points available for first strike.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by msinc on 10-03-2015 09:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Why were the rules changed to give the one minute grace period each turnout? I do remember people getting ticked off for getting scratched because they said their babbler was not a babbler, he/she was just cold nosed.

If I remember right the story I got was "because a lot of young dogs got excited easily and left barking on the first turnout." So, rather than have these participants scratched and lose even more attendance the one minute rule was enacted. At the time it was meant for dogs that would bark excited two or three times when they were first cut loose. It was felt that one minute was ample time to allow an excited dog to get over it, shut up and get down to business without being scratched. Barking a few excited barks in the first minute was seen as not really a big deal back then. I guess nobody foresaw that it could morph into this. It was never intended or it was not the intent to allow motor mouth, barking mad idiots to leave barking, get 1st strike and run off at the mouth all the way to a tree.

Edit: Here's a scenario, under the old rules, that happened to me...back then I hunted a redbone female. She opened when she smelled a coon and she had a pretty good nose. I needed one more win for grand and we were taken to a big chicken farm. You might well say we hunted right off of feeders because we turned out on piles of the dead chickens. I had first strike at the first turnout and was warned...I don't have to tell you what happened at the second, I was done. I even asked that we do not turnout right at the chicken piles. But for that old rule in this scenario she was unbeatable. Today if I had this dog and with todays rule I would have easily won that hunt.

Posted by elvis on 10-03-2015 10:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer

Even back before the minute rule, dogs wernt minused for babbling, they were just struck on the third bark and you hoped there would be some action before the 8 caught them.

That's not the way it was here.
If your dog was suspected of babbling it would be a setup on the next turnout to catch him at it.
No Sir, If they babbled they weren't ready for the hunts.
We broke them from it. The minute rule took away the need to break them. Now they just babble thru the minute and then are struck and everyone seems to be fine with that. I hate it.

Posted by Dick BRothers on 10-03-2015 10:51 PM:

Amen Mr Elvis.

Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 10:57 PM:

With the old rule didn't people try to get other dogs who were legit strike dogs scratched for babbling which caused the issue and reasoning for the current striking/babbling rule?

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by yadkintar on 10-03-2015 11:10 PM:

It's been several years ago now but in a two hour 3 dog $$$ hunt a guys dog was struck off the snap I had left the windows down on the pickup that dog wouldn't shut up killed 3 skunks within 200 yards of the pickup we couldn't catch it scared our dogs so bad we found them out of hearing after the hunt we never got struck they had a coon me and the inside of my truck smelt like skunk for weeks and back at the club the guy was proud of his win !! It's just about the wins to some people now and yes they got a scratch for babbling here to !!

Posted by msinc on 10-03-2015 11:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
With the old rule didn't people try to get other dogs who were legit strike dogs scratched for babbling which caused the issue and reasoning for the current striking/babbling rule?

Exactly...that is what I was explaining at the end of my last post.

Posted by Rip on 10-04-2015 07:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
That's not the way it was here.
If your dog was suspected of babbling it would be a setup on the next turnout to catch him at it.
No Sir, If they babbled they weren't ready for the hunts.
We broke them from it. The minute rule took away the need to break them. Now they just babble thru the minute and then are struck and everyone seems to be fine with that. I hate it.

Elvis is exactly right, in my part of the country it was the same. Babblers went to the truck. If they babbled they weren't ready for the hunts. It was absolutely enforced.

You don't think I came up with the idea of walking across a field then turning back the way we came with the lights on them do ya? That was one of the ways to set up the babbler. Couldn't claim they were smellin a coon they didn't smell the first time across. Saw that on one of my first nite hunts back in the 80's

__________________
Let's go huntin

Posted by Cowboyred on 10-04-2015 09:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Not when, why?

Sorry, misread your question

Posted by msinc on 10-04-2015 11:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Elvis is exactly right, in my part of the country it was the same. Babblers went to the truck. If they babbled they weren't ready for the hunts. It was absolutely enforced.

You don't think I came up with the idea of walking across a field then turning back the way we came with the lights on them do ya? That was one of the ways to set up the babbler. Couldn't claim they were smellin a coon they didn't smell the first time across. Saw that on one of my first nite hunts back in the 80's

Thanks for posting this RIP!!!! This is what we need, solutions not complaints. I see this as a simple, easy to understand, uncomplicated, excellent solution to the problem of a babbling dog and the best part is that the handler cant really argue with it. The only other thing needed here is a judge that's man enough to do it.
What I had done in the past was cut the dogs loose in a pasture that had no climb fence around it. But it could be argued that even it really could have had a coon there. The above suggestion is pretty fool proof to me.

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-04-2015 01:27 PM:

Just walk an extra min an a half across the field. While I dont like the min. I do not think it will fix the dogs of today removing it. These dogs are not what I consider babblers. They are not hishi

__________________
Michael Ghorley

Posted by yadkintar on 10-04-2015 01:40 PM:

Watched the play by play of the$$ last night can't count the times dogs was struck under the minute it's acceptable now so I guess we shouldn't sweat the small stuff just move on !!

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 10-04-2015 03:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Watched the play by play of the$$ last night can't count the times dogs was struck under the minute it's acceptable now so I guess we shouldn't sweat the small stuff just move on !!

And the dog that was struck last just had to have coons in his trees to beat them

__________________
YouTube.com/@canestreammedia
www.joydogfood.com
Fueled by Joy Podcast

Posted by gerald mullis on 10-04-2015 05:16 PM:

idea first strike 100 when turn loose 1st min for babblers don't need to strike but can if no other dog strikes minus them but after min when dogs strikes 100 all dog have 1min to strike for 100 2nd min for 75 3rd min 50 after 3rd min 25

Posted by pabeagler on 10-04-2015 06:13 PM:

Instead of changing the point system . We need to educate judges to know the rules and How to apply them correctly.

Jmo But i think you should be required to attend and pass some type of seminar before you tote a scorecard .
in this day and age It would be very easy to hold webinars to educate and certify judges.

__________________
Then peter said unto them, Repent, and be
baptized every one of you in the name of
jesus christ for the remission of sins , and ye
shall receive the gift of the holy ghost

Posted by Rip on 10-04-2015 10:00 PM:

I think some are missing the point here. The minute is what CAUSED these automatic strike dogs. It wasn't much of a problem before they added the minute in my area.

Back in the 80's it was easy to set up a babbler just like I posted above. Now that won't work because they are across the field in the woods by the time the minute is up.

The minute is what allows this to happen. Take the minute away and they number of dogs that babble will decrease signifcantly.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Posted by Rip on 10-04-2015 10:00 PM:

__________________
Let's go huntin

Posted by shane_atchison on 10-05-2015 01:03 AM:

Things not needed:
1. 1Min rule
2. 8Min. to keep strike alive
3. Leash locking

Things needed:
1. A countdown on tree
2. Greater performance payout
3. Minus 1st strike dogs who tree last & last strike dogs who tree 1st.

__________________
Shane

Posted by honalieh on 10-05-2015 04:20 AM:

My opinion

Babbling = A dog opening it's mouth when no track is present. I'm not accepting of this type of dog. There is already a rule against them.

Striking = A dog opening up when it hits a track. I like a good honest 1st strike dog (not that I have one). The important word is honest.

Silent = A dog that runs a track without barking until it hits the tree. Don't care for this type of dog. They seem very prevalent.

In the 70's/early 80's there was a particular line of Blueticks noted for babbling. The 125 tree rule largely solved this problem. In $KC, with the 100/100 rules this babbling advantage got exploited, and some of it returned (with one particular line of Walkers in particular). So, I do understand that the problem does exist, in some cases. But, it's certainly not a majority!!!

If you're hunting silent/tight-mouthed dogs, LEGITIMATE HONEST STRIKE DOGS have the same strike point advantage over you that babblers have over honest strike dogs. So, I guess if they open on track, they're babblers compared to yours. Solution: Hunt an open mouthed track dog!

Honest strike dogs ARE NOT BABBLERS. We should not penalize them. We need more of them!!! BABBLERS ARE BABBLERS. We already have rules against them.

We absolutely should not reward silent dogs by penalizing honest strike dogs!!!

UKC effectively solved the babbling issue 35 years ago when they went to 125 for first tree. Been there.

To me, the biggest problem is the dogs that instead of running ahead of the other dogs, run away from the other dogs to get alone (don't have to compete). They still get first tree points despite the fact that one or two other dogs have already treed before them. The so-called deep and lonely dogs. Just try hunting by yourself with two dogs like this.

I know that my opinion is not popular with those hunting tight mouth dogs. That said, I fully understand that tight-mouth dogs are more efficient, and typically more accurate (a big +).

My preference is what I call semi-silent. Open honestly on track, but cover distance between barks, enough to let you know where they're at.

Bottom Line = Don't change rules. Enforcement is the answer, and we know it won't get done.

Posted by mr taylor on 10-05-2015 05:03 AM:

Honalieh

I thought a tight mouthed dog was a semi silent dog or that was what i have called them all my life anyway,a silent dog never barks until it trees and a tight mouthed or semi silent dog opens on strike and then just enough to let you know where they are until they tree and a open mouth dog most sound like they are being hit in the rear end with a board until they tree.

Posted by honalieh on 10-07-2015 03:16 AM:

Re: Honalieh

quote:
Originally posted by mr taylor
I thought a tight mouthed dog was a semi silent dog or that was what i have called them all my life anyway,a silent dog never barks until it trees and a tight mouthed or semi silent dog opens on strike and then just enough to let you know where they are until they tree and a open mouth dog most sound like they are being hit in the rear end with a board until they tree.

You've hit an area that I don't have a clear definition on. Most of my best dogs have been what I call semi-silent. Not sure that what I'm calling it is correct. They are open on track, but drift between barks, just enough to let you know where they are at. So they are open, just not wide open. Pretty much just like you stated!!! But, I do consider them open mouthed, because they DO OPEN on track. When I hear the term "tight-mouthed", I usually think that's a nicer way of saying silent dog, because that's how people with silent dogs describe them. But yes, the semi-silent dog as you and I have described could be considered to be tight-mouthed, and that would not be inaccurate. So yes, a silent dog and a semi-silent dog could both be considered as tight-mouthed, but they are not the same because one of them DOES OPEN on track.

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:12 PM.

Pages (4): « First ... « 2 3 [4]
Show all 96 posts from this thread on one page