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-- Does a trainer make a top hound! (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928423548)

Vic

To answer your ? about Gauge! Yes he was certainly trained in some way or another after I purchased him from Danny Perez. Same with Jet 8!! Any hound that is at this kennel to a point will be trained for something along the way more times than not. For instance I never let a hound stay bayed up in a hole, he holes,he's getting the message quick when I get in there. I break every hound from holing up at the first time it gives me the chance. Hunted around here alot of years and smart enough to know that possums are in them holes 99.9% of the time. In doing that I find that I never have a problem with a young hound treeing them. When broke out of those holes,killed 2 birds with one stone. Broken both!! Holing and possum!! Trained or tweaked,the outcome is the same!I would rather have them roll on and get treed with a coon. In a night hunt,seen alot of dog fights created when they all are trying to get in that hole! Maybe I should have used the word tweak which seams to be more of a liking to most on here but if one looks at the definition below. Training certainly would be simular to being tweaked! Maybe not. I know alot of us view top hounds in many different ways. I have in mind what I like in a top hound but may differ from many others out there. To that I say hunt the style that you like because you are the one turning it looose. I have to see certain traits at a very young age and if I don't see them,thier not for me. If a get one that makes me want to load them up alot and I believe I have one that has the tools to be great. That gets me excited!!










TWEAK
verb \ˈtwçk\

: to change (something) slightly in order to improve it : to make small adjustments to (something)

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Danny G

Re: Vic

quote:

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Originally posted by Danny Glista
To answer your ? about Gauge! Yes he was certainly trained in some way or another after I purchased him from Danny Perez. Same with Jet 8!! Any hound that is at this kennel to a point will be trained for something along the way more times than not. For instance I never let a hound stay bayed up in a hole, he holes,he's getting the message quick when I get in there. I break every hound from holing up at the first time it gives me the chance. Hunted around here alot of years and smart enough to know that possums are in them holes 99.9% of the time. In doing that I find that I never have a problem with a young hound treeing them. When broke out of those holes,killed 2 birds with one stone. Broken both!! Holing and possum!! Trained or tweaked,the outcome is the same!I would rather have them roll on and get treed with a coon. In a night hunt,seen alot of dog fights created when they all are trying to get in that hole! Maybe I should have used the word tweak which seams to be more of a liking to most on here but if one looks at the definition below. Training certainly would be simular to being tweaked! Maybe not. I know alot of us view top hounds in many different ways. I have in mind what I like in a top hound but may differ from many others out there. To that I say hunt the style that you like because you are the one turning it looose. I have to see certain traits at a very young age and if I don't see them,thier not for me. If a get one that makes me want to load them up alot and I believe I have one that has the tools to be great. That gets me excited!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Vic Stoll
The more common one in my eyes (and what I think Danny is referring to) is the ones which are well above average. They may not be the exceptional freak, but will require some, all be it very little human intervention. Yes, they all have holes/weaknesses, but their strengths override those weaknesses far more often than not. What little human intervention they do require is minimal, & seldom repeated.

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TWEAK
verb \ˈtwçk\

: to change (something) slightly in order to improve it : to make small adjustments to (something)

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Rain this morning, so; I will post one more time. Ability is born into a coonhound. A good trainer can enhance that. I never saw one that did not need some fine tuning. Every now and then one will come along that is a prodigy, some would say freak, just like people. Gauge is what I would consider a prodigy. After 50+ years following these hounds, I have my own thoughts about selecting and training these dogs. Most coonhunters are not really interested in my ideas because they already know all the answers. I will also say, I will not turn a dog loose without a shock collar on it. They make these collars with many levels of correction for a reason. Most times a light shock will do the trick if the dog is smart enough. I do not want any dog that is not smart. They need to have ability and brains. They usually go together.

I've never seen a 100 percent straight dog especially when u start hunting it with other unbroke dogs. Maybe it's just because there is so much trash down here. An that's where the training comes in even with the natural great ones imo

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the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc


This will make some guys mad but, I think at some point we should start to look at the "genetics" of some of the owner/handler/trainers....

We have guys posting on here recently that seriously believe:

The 3 to 5 MILE long track their dog just ran is a coon....

14 trees a night with nothing in them was squirrels....

A dog should be culled because he has not treed his own coon by himself at 10 months.....


I FOLLOWED ALONG PRETTY GOOD UP TO THIS POINT AND THEN YOU LOST ME!!!!


Dogs can be bitten by certain ticks or have a thyroid problem and it will cause them to run junk, but a vet can fix it if you get them to one quick enough.


TICK DISEASES CAN CAUSE OUTSTANDING DOGS TO LOOK LIKE A POS. NOT HEARSAY, BUT LIVED AND LEARNED.

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Hat Creek Mac

Give the man a ribbon! I will go with what he said...I agree!

Hat Creek Mac

Gonna half to somewhat agree with your statement also. This has been beat up a little on this board but wanting to bring it up again. Been thinking alot about situations when one is starting a young pup,6 months old in thick verses thin coon population. Yet again,some may wait until the get older to start. Just saying at 6 months old as a reference! Yes,there's deffinetly more coons for the young pup to find and try to tree in thick coon vs where there's not many. Just wondering what you think would be harder for a pup to succeed that has been started and hunted by hisself. No pup trainer as far as older hound involved. Buckets set out to bring coons in would be fine from the start to help the pup get going in thin coon population. Now just you and the pup, what traits would you yourself look to be the most important one to show up first OTHER than going out and hunting. Would it be tracking,treeing or possibly something else that you would look at considering your location and coon population. With my situation and all the coons I have around here,I look for one thing from the start and go from there. What do you look for and why if one doesn't mind saying and do you believe as one grows into a young hound, 1 yr to 18 months old, one can learn more and excel to a higher level going from a thick coon population to thin coon country and why. Also the other way around,thin to thick coons!Thanks and looking to hear ones thoughts on this,Danny G.

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Danny G

Just another thought!

Wondering mind wants to know. I see on the board this time of year pups under 1 year old,young hounds over a year old forsale and ready start for the corn season. Meaning coon are in the corn I guess!! You can certainly find coon in the corn and bean fields around here for sure so to those of you in thick coon country such as myself and have lots of cornfields to hunt,do you start hunting pups and or older pups say 10 months old in the corn to hit good coon tracks? No older hound,just a pup on its own!!!If one does,how's it workin for you? Would it be a fair judgement to say that either propect could be overwhelmed from all the track in those crop fields alot of times and get a bit confused and you continue to put them in it because the coon are there and your wanting to eventually hit a good track for them but yet have them struggle at times on all the old tracks that are commin around corn from coon that moved early only to start and create a bad habit only because you were trying to hit a good coon track!! Around here,there could be ten coon around the edge of that cornfield,lots for a pup of any age to handle not alone an older hound at times. Is it or is it not a good move by handler,trainer,tweaker,ect!!! or would it make more sense to avoid the corn and beans all together if one can until the pup learns to handle an older track with confidense enough to move it and get it treed in big timber on a consistant basis and then move forward with them. This is a trainers choice,not the pups so lets hear what one has to say!! Been a good read,lets not ruin it now. Just thinkin out loud a bit while the 2 snappin turtles I have to clean are bleedin out! I know what I di,what's you thoughts on it!!Eager mind want to know!! Thanks,Danny G.

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Danny G

quote:

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Originally posted by hat creek mac
Not wanting to argue with anyone. That is my least favorite thing to do anymore. This post has made for some pretty good reading and some of it pretty comical.

I have always heard "the deader the better" when talking about coondogs. Sometimes it even happens when they are still alive. One man's trash is another man's treasures I think is how the saying goes. Some people's descriptions of a hound makes me scratch my head!

Can you train one not to "boodle" a cold track or "stand on his head"? Can you train one not to back a treed dog? Can you train a dog not to return to you after being released? Can you break a dog from treeing or running off game?

When you are done with your training, will this dog reproduce his likeness? I don't claim to be a trainer, but you can make dogs do a lot of things that don't come natural to them. In the end, you have a man made dog. He may be a stem winder, but he is still man made.

We are all hoping and praying to some day breed one that comes out of the womb a stomp down coondog. Some have gotten close. They ALL need some training. Hopefully you are breeding to one that didn't need a LOT of training and was mostly natural. I think that is the key.

Good trainers can make average dogs look way better than they should. Hard hunting and knowing when and how to work the training magic can make a common young dog look a step or two better than he really is.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear though. A lot of the things we look and breed for can't be taught, trained, or tweaked into a dog. They either have them or they don't...

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J. Bradford

If ONE!

Is thinking I man make all my nice young hounds I start here,your barking up the wrong tree!! Not sayin anyone is thinkin it or suggesting that I may, just sayin!Certainly one that has been at it for years knows what one has in between its ears or not at a young age. Besides that,I don't believe in spending my time getting one hunted down and ready for the hunts unless I would want in the future to have a pup out of it myself. Male or female. I'm always looking to breed naturals to the same for the best outcome! Sometimes that fails also! Give me the right young pup with the talent to tree coon at a very young age of 6 or 7 months on a consistant basis and I'll do my thing. Tweak it,train it,what ever one wants to call it. Maybe it's just wearin out a pair of boots on them which here lately I haven't done so well at at all and I have the right one to do it with. Dang shame it is!!The one I have now,Panic! If one believes he would be here for me to waste my time on and try and man make him into a top hound if he didn't have it upstairs to be one. Again,wrong tree!! The Gauge and Alice cross were all given a chance and all treed thier own coon at a very young age. To me,seems like a cross to work with. Panic just happens to be one of them. Just got the news a little bit ago,1 out of the cross got qualified for the world hunt last nite at 14 months old. A young man owns him and yes,he can wear out a pair of boots quick. Not sure wether he was trained or not but certainly must be doing something right at a very young age! Congrats to Jake and his young hound,ROCK! Sometimes we can all agree or disagree, I guess what ever floats ones boat! JMO!! Danny G.

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Danny G

Just speaking

From my perspective on cornfields. I have been fortunate to live and hunt in both worlds. I was raised and hunted all my life in the hills and mountains in West Virginia until the age of 23 when I ended up in Peru Indiana, in the Air Force for 9 years. I had a Nite Ch Blue dog at that time and what I believed to be a top cooner, in WV, at that time. I couldn't wait to get him into all those thick coon in Indiana. What a Shock! He had a lot of trouble in corn and those fences were another thing. Totally different from the dense woods, hills and hollows where he was hunted prior to moving. Soy bean fields were something else too! Just a complete culture shock. It took a very good coon dog, IMO, a while to get used to the area so one can imagine how it would effect a young hound. Now, that being said, I did raise, start and finish a few hounds in the flat land afterwards but I did know what to do and where not to take them at a young age. On the other hand, it sometimes is difficult to start a pup where I live now. We have a fair population of coon but an abundance of woods. We don't have patch woods to make a quick drop and move on to the next one. At my age, and still working, when you have to wait until 9:40 for darkness about one good drop and you're headed to the house, especially if the track heads to the top of the ridge, if you can get a track. So, I guess like Danny was saying, it makes a big difference when it comes to working with a young dog. So many variables involved when it comes to training, tweaking, fooling with or what ever you want to call it, with these youngsters. Getting the right one to start with is the best way to start one! Good luck....Ron

Ron

Guys young and old pm or call wanting to know what to do about this or that when starting and hunting young pups or young hounds. Some of the things I hear would make one think a bit! I believe if one has just a bit of commen sense and thinks about it a bit and doesn't react at a moments notice,one has a better outcome at the end for the most part. Here's a for instance with lets just say a 8 month old pup running and treeing a coon every now and then. Not at all consistant but can tree an easy coon. Let's just say no leaves on,trees are bare and the pup goes in and tries to work an old track for 20 minutes and in time it comes treed and it's sounding good! Owners happy and proud as ever walkin in and when he gets there,surpize,no coon seen and small tree is slicker than a minners dingy! Pups all wired up treein his butt off and you say to yourself,what is he doing and instictively he grabs the pup,takes it off the tree with a bit of temper flowing thru his viens and puts a bit of a switch to the pup and sends him off only to have him get retreed 30 yards away 5 minutes later,slick again. Now he's madder! Would it make more sense to go in,see it 's slick and hook him up and get out of there or not the first time he slicked. My thinking is if he didn't get it right the first time,what makes one think he will get it right the second seeing how he's just 8 months old. Just another deal lots of pups at times go thru at a young age from some I'm sure. A very smart dog man once told me years ago,when that young pup trees,get to him and hook him up. Don't let him have the chance to get down once he's commited to the tree. They have all thier life to become all night treedogs. Years ago I thought that was a good thing and still do today to a point the first tree or two other than I won't tie a young pup to that tree. They have to want to be there to eat at this kennel!! Later,Danny G.

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Danny G

Danny how often do see young dogs you start and push at that young age go backwards

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Never! Hear it mentioned alot at times!! I"ve never really seen one go what some call backwards here at the kennel and if one does manage to do so the one putting a lead on that young pup better go stand in front of a mirror and take a good look at what he sees because more times than not,he has found the reason why staring back at him at that time!! Never seen a pup or hound load itself up and go hunting. Don't know what you want me to call it but the one who has control over the pup is usually the reason one may go backwards. More times than not,the pup looses desire because one is pushing the pup to hard. If one keeps the pups eagerness to want to go on a high level,they will continue to excel as they grow older. Take the fun out of it and hunt it way to much until they get some age on them soon finds the pup ding things your not happy with. Keep it simple and fun will keep them on the right path at least for me it does. What do you really see in one that has gone backwords? Desire to not want to hunt,slick trees,ect? When I'm hunting a pup,it's always just me and 1 pup and I awlays give it the best chance to succeed when I cut it loose. I hunt 98% of the time by myself and never put the pup with an old dog until it has treed at least 20 coons on its own. Then the pup may get turned loose with another but not often. I'm a believer in on thing,the pup gains more confidense when he does it on his own. Yes,with coons like I have it's much easier to get done no doubt but I'm always going give it my best shot at bringing that pup home on a positive note and at times,1 coon treed the right way is enough! You don't have to hunt the guts out of them at a young age,if one does,maybe that might get the pup going what some call backwards. JMO! Later,Danny G.

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Danny G

Danny - You just posted the best advice on starting young dogs that I have seen on here. I cringe every time I see " hunt the hair off them " as advice on hunting young hounds. When you have a good lesson, take them home and let them think about it for a few days. Most people will not follow this plan! See you this fall.

Paul

Coming from you,I take that as a great compliment! What I have read on here,you stated Gauge as a freak or a prodigy!You hunted with Gauge when he was young! Just wanted to know what you will call Panic when you hunt with him this fall!! Moses,Noah or possibly God!! Thanks,Danny G.

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Danny G

Talent v performance ...

hey folks, I have read this entire thread and been watching and learning. There are many good points made and plenty of passion. I have a few questions.

Where would Secretariat be without a trainer? Muhammad Ali? Pistol Pete Marevich? Did Don Shula just load up the 72 Dolphins, dump them out at stadium and say "Hey, I know there is a lot of natural talent here, so just go out there and play ball!"
Every top performer bring natural talent to the table. Every top trainer recognizes that talent and knows how to develop those skills into top performance.

In our conversation about coonhounds, talent is bred and top performance trained. I have seen young dogs with tons of natural talent be an average coon treer in the hands of inept trainers.

Top trainers in any field are top trainers because they can spot natural talent and then know how to get top performance from that. They are selective in what they put their efforts into. So it is a balance between natural ability and the ability to get the most out of it.

One without the other has the same result: mediocrity.

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Chris Powell
Houndsman XP Podcast

I don't think we are disagreeing 4play. Talent needs trained and a trainer needs talent.

This years Triple Crown winner is one great horse but the trainer did not take dud and train greatness into it. The trainer took the talent and got the most out of it.

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Chris Powell
Houndsman XP Podcast

Re: Talent v performance ...

quote:

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Originally posted by Rowdy
hey folks, I have read this entire thread and been watching and learning. There are many good points made and plenty of passion. I have a few questions.

Where would Secretariat be without a trainer? Muhammad Ali? Pistol Pete Marevich? Did Don Shula just load up the 72 Dolphins, dump them out at stadium and say "Hey, I know there is a lot of natural talent here, so just go out there and play ball!"
Every top performer bring natural talent to the table. Every top trainer recognizes that talent and knows how to develop those skills into top performance.

In our conversation about coonhounds, talent is bred and top performance trained. I have seen young dogs with tons of natural talent be an average coon treer in the hands of inept trainers.

Top trainers in any field are top trainers because they can spot natural talent and then know how to get top performance from that. They are selective in what they put their efforts into. So it is a balance between natural ability and the ability to get the most out of it.

One without the other has the same result: mediocrity.

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Where hounds are more than just dogs, they are a part of the FAMILY.

Secretariat

was mentioned before as needing a trainer to reach his full potential. The thing about Secretariat, "he was a freak." He had an extra large heart which allowed him to get more oxygen throughout his body which gave him more stamina and endurance. This wasn't found until his death but never the less, someone recognized this great animals talent and stuck with him to the end. Now, that being said, how many of us will be able to see this in a hound and stick with it to the end. Not saying an enlarged heart, just extreme talent.
Also, lets not get trainer mixed up with handler, two totally different things. There are handlers out there that don't know the first thing about how to bring a pup up from a young age till its ready to be in competition. Same goes for trainers and competition hunting. Two very different worlds. Anyone who has hunted competition knows that a great handler can beat you with a fair dog against your good dog, that's if you're a fair handler, happens all the time. This is a great topic and I believe we all can learn much from it as long as we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Now, if you can decipher what I just said, you're a better man than I am! LOL

Re: Secretariat

quote:

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Originally posted by Ron Moore
was mentioned before as needing a trainer to reach his full potential. The thing about Secretariat, "he was a freak." He had an extra large heart which allowed him to get more oxygen throughout his body which gave him more stamina and endurance. This wasn't found until his death but never the less, someone recognized this great animals talent and stuck with him to the end. Now, that being said, how many of us will be able to see this in a hound and stick with it to the end. Not saying an enlarged heart, just extreme talent.
Also, lets not get trainer mixed up with handler, two totally different things. There are handlers out there that don't know the first thing about how to bring a pup up from a young age till its ready to be in competition. Same goes for trainers and competition hunting. Two very different worlds. Anyone who has hunted competition knows that a great handler can beat you with a fair dog against your good dog, that's if you're a fair handler, happens all the time. This is a great topic and I believe we all can learn much from it as long as we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Now, if you can decipher what I just said, you're a better man than I am! LOL

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Chris Powell
Houndsman XP Podcast

Re: Re: Talent v performance ...

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Originally posted by steve bankston
I agree! Danny said " Does a trainer MAKE a top hound?" I had answered NO. The reason being if its not in there to begin with your not making a top hound out of it no matter who you are as a trainer. If someone gives you a young pup or hound and says Make me a top Cooner that's like getting a trunk with a lid on it handed to you and they say build me a tractor but when you open the lid there is only bike parts in there. Might get you down the road but a tractor it ain't . But back to agreeing with you, a good trainer can get a pup and as it grows up a good trainer, can, at a very young age start to mold and shape this future top cooner. They have the ability to recognize the signs from the pup through his actions, body language, and just the way he goes about everyday life as he grows up and how he responds to different things that there is something special there or they just have another average pup. A good trainer then will know how to shape and set that pup up to bring out the best that was bred into him. They will know what buttons to push or Not push and the exact time they should be pushed. With each step toward becoming the top cooner they know how the pup will respond about certain situations BEFORE the pup is faced with the situation. A good trainer is in their head, knows what they are thinking, knows their personality, and will bring out the very best that pup has to offer the Coon Hunting World. You can call it Shape, Mold, or Tweak but not Make. JMO.

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Chris Powell
Houndsman XP Podcast

Guys!!

We all can learn something from this thread if one keeps hisself open minded! Later, Danny G.

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Danny G

There's many definitions of a top hound. Training can come at different ages to achieve the end result. A six month old pup running and treeing a few coon is outstanding. The same pup at 12 months old treeing multiple coon on a regular basis is also outstanding. Taking for granted the handling, the desire to get gone, etc... is also progressing. This pup is showing off some of it's natural ability. No trainer can teach a hound to gather scent from the air and fall treed with a coon. That ability is bred but can be expressed earlier in age with proper training. A trainer can't teach a hound to go the right direction on a track when the other hounds go wrong. Training can't teach a hound to run a coon to catch if the ability isn't present. Lots of hunting can intensify desire to catch a coon but desire alone don't make a top hound. Treeing, staying treed, accuracy, locating ability and other treeing abilities can be improved on by training. Most of these abilities are born in abilities in top hounds. Getting real excited about a pup or young dog is great. Evaluate why the young dog isn't treeing every track they open on. Is it tracking ability or locating ability.

No reason to go on. My point has been made. Absolute top hounds are bred or Danny would have a whole pen full of Jet 8's.

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blueticker

Gonna have to agree what you stated but at the same time, at which point does one becomes the trainer? For my thinking on this,once one gains control and snaps a lead on that young pup that has all the tools,he at that time becomes the trainer. Like it or not! Again,never seen a pup take itself hunting. Someone has to have control! Yes,without a doubt in my mind,one is born with it but if you find one that is,who takes the pup hunting? One pup can have all the tools but yet not have the chance to show it because they got started off on the wrong foot. Seen it to many times. I stated a few days ago I was gonna tell how I train pups from being gun shy but change my mind to do so. Training to gun shot is one of the steps any hunting hound has to deal with in time! Here,I do it and take it on myself to see that anyone that buys a pup from me doesn't have to deal with it on down the road. Simple to do and doesn't take up much time! I'll ask you,would you consider that training or not! With little time,I can get all the pups in a litter broke to gunshot thru hunger drive that I have learned from a very special guy 20 years ago that trained sea lions and orka's for sea world right here in Geneva,Oh. This young man helped me realize what a trainer should be! I remember the time years ago,I went and looked at a top bred black lab. At that time I was having the young guy who trained at sea world hunt bird dogs for me at the field trials.He was the best at getting the best from what he had to work with. Smart as a whip can crack! Anyhow,I went to kansas and looked at this young 9 month old black lab they wanted $5000 for out of the current top bloodlines! When they got him out,looks would kill if one saw him. They went on to show how well he performed by doing all the commands a top lab should know when in a blind duck hunting. At that time being a new comer,I was impressed to say the least! I gave that $5000 for that young lab pup and smiled all the way home. Took him up to Chris,the guys that trained at sea world and showed him what he could do as far as commands! First thing Chris ask me was he gun broke,never crossed my mind at the time I bought him! Till this day,the worst dog purchase I have ever made and from that point on,breaking coonhound pups here at 9 weeks old has been a priority for me!That young black lab pup was gun shy as hell to say the least!!! Now with raisng blues least I can do if one buys a pup from me is to gun break one before it leaves the kennel. Might not mean much to some but to those that have had to deal with gun shyness,it's not an easy fix!! Buy the way,that top young lab with all the command tolls never made a hunting partner I was proud of! So at this time,I see everyones point of view but still think one can always learn someting new. To anyone that wants to know how to gun break to shot an entire litter so new owners don't have the problem on down the road! Ask and I'll reply! Until then,it will be my own secret! Thanks to all that have stated the opnions and there just that,Danny G.

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Danny G