UKC Forums - Dog Fighting Question

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Posted by HOBO on 04-03-2015 01:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, now that sounds like at the least a very agressive dog and maybe even a mean dog. Now how in the world do you know that she didn't start any trouble unless you were standing at the tree watching her? Maybe you just didn't see her "start any trouble". If nothing else, it sounds like she had a big chip on her shoulder and was just looking for any excuse to whup another dog.

I made her a Nt Ch and she was only involved in one fight, I was the judge and I scratched her and the other dog that fought with her because we didn't know who started it.

When you hunt your dog as much as I hunted her you know what your dog will and will not do. Several guys that post on this board hunted with her none of them saw any aggressive behavior out of her.

Just because she would stand up to a bully does not make her mean or ill. I will not hunt a mean dog period.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 04-03-2015 01:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I have seen my share...fortunately dog fights are not too common these days. From what I have seen the scenario where the typically non aggressive dog ends up looking like the bad dog and getting scratched for it happens more often than it seems like it should.
In my experience it seems like to me this happens more often with females, but it can happen with males too. What I have seen several times is a female that is non aggressive, but a good hard tree dog getting badgered or bullied by another dog at the tree. Usually it is nothing more than face barking or running around the tree and crowding the first dog. She feels threatened and does something about it.
I believe this is instinct with the females and the same type of natural reaction when they are in heat and gathering males attention, but not quite ready to breed. Every male that tries gets quickly put in his place.
Some dogs, males included just act this way all the time...if another dog tries them they react. In doing so many times they get scratched...if the rules are followed and applied properly. Sad thing is that these same dogs will not bother a fly as long as it don't bother them.
This is the main reason why UKC does not bar a dog for fighting once...it can happen to the calmest, coolest dog. But three times...now we have to consider is it really the rest of the world?????

Yup makes sense, can information be used from previous interactions in the cast on that particular night?

I would think some of the unjust rulings could be curbed by letting the dogs smell each other and interact for a few minutes before cutting loose. I would think alot of good information about the dogs in the cast could be gathered from those few short minutes of observations. If a fight did break out there would be more information available, to make a good decision.

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Posted by msinc on 04-03-2015 01:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
Yup makes sense, can information be used from previous interactions in the cast on that particular night?

I would think some of the unjust rulings could be curbed by letting the dogs smell each other and interact for a few minutes before cutting loose. I would think alot of good information about the dogs in the cast could be gathered from those few short minutes of observations. If a fight did break out there would be more information available, to make a good decision.

I get what you are asking, and as much as I agree and to some extent think that yes, as a good judge you should do some initial observing of the dogs interactions, you will still have to follow the rules.
In example, at the beginning of the hunt dogs are all stood near each other and one seems to be aggressive, then later a fight breaks out it would still be wrong to conclude this dog was the cause or even had anything to do with it if the judge or cast don't see the incident.
You can also act accordingly in a cast with information gathered well before a given cast of dogs...if I am judging a cast and have information that a dog might be ill at the tree or aggressive with other dogs I make it a point to watch that dog carefully. We cant make decisions or act on a dog for hearsay, but we can and should certainly watch it carefully.
When you say "make a good decision", yes we all want that, but no matter what gets "decided" it still has to follow the rules and it will probably still not set too well with everyone.
One important thing to never forget...dogs must be scratched for fighting "anytime during the authority of the judge" which starts when he is handed the scorecard and ends when it is handed back to the MOH/HD. When I MOH a hunt I always ask the cast right there at the table when I hand over the scorecard "who is judging this cast???" This is so that if a dog fight happens in the parking lot a designated judge exists. The cast can change who judges later in the woods as many times as they want to, but all casts need a judge the minute the scorecard is handed over.

Edit: Your point is also well taken by UKC...the rules allow for a non hunting judge to be appointed if the club or the MOH deems it necessary {for information previously gathered...}

Posted by blackflagginit on 04-03-2015 01:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
I'm going to take a stab at the point flag is trying to make. Aggression in dogs starts much earlier then the point of rolling around the ground or for the sake of our discussion the sound of a fight. Some one previously wrote the rules are rules, it simple. I think flag is making the point that the rules are so poorly written on this subject. That a dog can be very aggressive but without the dog interfering there is little the judge can do.

yup, exactly my point.

now lets back it up a little bit and say no really "mean dog" but there is a tree jacker , 2 face barkers, and a very timid dog.

1) tree jacker lands on ol timid heart, and bam its done. cant take that kind of abuse. quits and comes in. now that really non aggressive act (tree jacking) has interfered with another dog and is perceived by it as aggression.

2) timid tim picks a position next to ol face barker on a tree. ol in your face tells it to back off but never lands a tooth on it. doesn't matter, bam timid tim is done. quits and comes in. cant take that kind of abuse anymore ( soccer mom raised). now another so so aggressive act (face barking) has interfered with another dog.

weigh it up anyway you want, but the point here is that tree jacking and face barking start fights sooner or later, or at the least can interfere with certain dogs. taken alone they are not "dog fights" but can sure set one up to happen or cause some dogs to quit for the night.

4 face barkers in a cast, none kick it up a notch and rumble in the jungle, no harm no foul. nobody is "interfered with".

4 tree jackers land all over each other all night and knock out a handler or two in the process (don't laugh I have known of it happening) same deal.

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Posted by msinc on 04-03-2015 02:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
yup, exactly my point.

now lets back it up a little bit and say no really "mean dog" but there is a tree jacker , 2 face barkers, and a very timid dog.

1) tree jacker lands on ol timid heart, and bam its done. cant take that kind of abuse. quits and comes in. now that really non aggressive act (tree jacking) has interfered with another dog and is perceived by it as aggression.

2) timid tim picks a position next to ol face barker on a tree. ol in your face tells it to back off but never lands a tooth on it. doesn't matter, bam timid tim is done. quits and comes in. cant take that kind of abuse anymore ( soccer mom raised). now another so so aggressive act (face barking) has interfered with another dog.

weigh it up anyway you want, but the point here is that tree jacking and face barking start fights sooner or later, or at the least can interfere with certain dogs. taken alone they are not "dog fights" but can sure set one up to happen or cause some dogs to quit for the night.

4 face barkers in a cast, none kick it up a notch and rumble in the jungle, no harm no foul. nobody is "interfered with".

4 tree jackers land all over each other all night and knock out a handler or two in the process (don't laugh I have known of it happening) same deal.

I totally get exactly what you are saying. Timid Heart and Timid Tim should be taken out of the hunts and sold to some grandpaw as pleasure dogs where they might do some good....he can ride on a Gator and have little amish boys go to the tree and get them for him.
The words "pressure tree dog" always conjure up some image of this John Wayne of the coon dog world staying no matter what and taking all kinds of abuse, knowing exactly when to strike out {never when anyone is around} to straighten out the real mean dogs and stay treed to get those plus points in style. He's there treeing like an angel while the really bad dogs got their feelings and sometimes throats hurt.
Well, those dogs do exist, but "pressure tree dog" can also be the one that simply gets back off the tree and lets the jackers and face barkers have at it while he stands 6 or 10 feet back and trees away, not getting near the trouble. These dogs also exist and win a lot of hunts...the problem is that we as Americans don't find this dog "manly" enough.

I am not saying they are perfect, but as far as "rules being better" what would you change???

Posted by blackflagginit on 04-03-2015 02:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I am not saying they are perfect, but as far as "rules being better" what would you change???

I don't have all the answers........heck im not even sure I know all the questions :/

I do know this needs a more definite ..........definition lol.

in some casts unless they are actually rolling around on the ground there is no "dog fight", in others a face barker is scratched in a minute. mostly I think because peoples perception about what is a "dog fight" and what constitutes "attempting to fight" differ.

remember attempting to fight is defined as interfering with another dog by aggressive behavior. there must be both interference and aggressive behavior.

between those 2 lines is where the differences show up.

Posted by msinc on 04-03-2015 03:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
I don't have all the answers........heck im not even sure I know all the questions :/

I do know this needs a more definite ..........definition lol.

in some casts unless they are actually rolling around on the ground there is no "dog fight", in others a face barker is scratched in a minute. mostly I think because peoples perception about what is a "dog fight" and what constitutes "attempting to fight" differ.

remember attempting to fight is defined as interfering with another dog by aggressive behavior. there must be both interference and aggressive behavior.

between those 2 lines is where the differences show up.

I get it and have said the same thing at one time or another...peoples "perception' tends to be self serving...in your second paragraph when you talk about dogs rolling around on the ground and others face barking...that is primarily a judge problem, not a rule problem.
I always say that rules can make a lot more sense when we understand the why behind it, and rules never work by themselves, they have to have a fair, firm and impartial judge and master of hounds to back them up and make them work.
The way you describe it, one dog, the timid one is slighted and the truly aggressive dog sometimes gets the reward. In just about any given rule scenario a dog or handler can get over or get away with something if the situation is not handled properly...the intent of the rule regarding fighting dogs is to stop the breeding and continuation of ill tempered dogs and develop a type of dog that will tree his heart out but not cause a problem doing it. In this case the timid or half shy dog that leaves the tree loses and this rule helps to also get rid of or discourage the breeding of these types too.

What's missing in fair and impartial j_dges and _ules?????

Posted by Fisher13 on 04-03-2015 03:20 PM:

I think something to keep in mind here, is that rules can't solve everything. All of these dogs shouldn't be put in a hunt to begin with. A good trainer with a training program would never enter a dog that won't hold pressure, cause trouble or interfere with another dog, simply because your putting your prospect where a breakable puppy behavior like blowing can now be compounded into full on fighting.
Alas while I'm always pushing for guys to focus on training Nd improving there programs. In an increase in understanding of dogs, and an honest assessment of one's own dog would result in many of these issues being avoided, by the dog never being entered.

That being said, I agree blowing or face barking is a sign of aggression. That being said I have seen dogs that will look at the other dog on tree and bark, with no intentions of being territorial. I could see scratching a dog for face barking becoming to much of here say, he said she said, and easily abused.

A bad tree jacker shouldn't exist imo, in my experience much like aggression around tree, these behaviors are regularly enforced by to much praise and excitement around tree. Further cementing conviction in this belief even though I know you both disagree with me. A month ago I recently purchased back the first hound I trained. At 1 yr old he was a moderate tree runner, he would check him self every 30 seconds or so then run the tree. Fast forward 6 months, he was an on the wood, 2 feet planted never moving 90 100 bark very stylish tree dog. After getting him back he now jacks the tree worse then any I have ever seen. The Hunter that owned him was a strong believer in never correcting a dog around the tree. Anyways I digress clearly a bad tree jacker can not only hurt themselves or the other dogs, or worse another handler like a young hunter. That being said A DOG SHOULD NEVER RETALIATE WITH ITS MOUTH FOR ANY REASON. 3 or 4 dogs on a smaller tree on a steep bank are bound to bump and collide. This should never result in a fight. A bad jacker should never be entered, regardless but I see a rule on this being easily abused. I would argue that better education, training seminars, and a culture change is the best way to solve this issues as well.

The mentality of trying to get a pup granded out by 2 only adds to these issues. Putting a pup in situations where it is guaranteed to fail, by jacking,face barking or acting with poor manners due to the extra excitement of a cast should be saved for controlled training situations, where the above mentioned offenses can be corrected immediately not ignored in hopes that no one notices. Once a pup can handle the extra excitement of treeing in a cast, and act responsibly then and only then should a dog be entered.

I guess I'm telling you guys nothing you don't already know.
Maybe an age restriction on how old a dog needs to be well help curb some of these issues. However you can't fix stupid and stupid people are going to enter stupid dogs.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 04-03-2015 03:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I get what you are asking, and as much as I agree and to some extent think that yes, as a good judge you should do some initial observing of the dogs interactions, you will still have to follow the rules.
In example, at the beginning of the hunt dogs are all stood near each other and one seems to be aggressive, then later a fight breaks out it would still be wrong to conclude this dog was the cause or even had anything to do with it if the judge or cast don't see the incident.
You can also act accordingly in a cast with information gathered well before a given cast of dogs...if I am judging a cast and have information that a dog might be ill at the tree or aggressive with other dogs I make it a point to watch that dog carefully. We cant make decisions or act on a dog for hearsay, but we can and should certainly watch it carefully.
When you say "make a good decision", yes we all want that, but no matter what gets "decided" it still has to follow the rules and it will probably still not set too well with everyone.
One important thing to never forget...dogs must be scratched for fighting "anytime during the authority of the judge" which starts when he is handed the scorecard and ends when it is handed back to the MOH/HD. When I MOH a hunt I always ask the cast right there at the table when I hand over the scorecard "who is judging this cast???" This is so that if a dog fight happens in the parking lot a designated judge exists. The cast can change who judges later in the woods as many times as they want to, but all casts need a judge the minute the scorecard is handed over.

Edit: Your point is also well taken by UKC...the rules allow for a non hunting judge to be appointed if the club or the MOH deems it necessary {for information previously gathered...}

So the simple answer is 2 dogs fight, because no one saw it, the 2 dogs involved get scratched because the aggressor can not be identified period.

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Posted by msinc on 04-03-2015 03:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
So the simple answer is 2 dogs fight, because no one saw it, the 2 dogs involved get scratched because the aggressor can not be identified period.

Yep, period, end of story...well...that's the way it's supposed to work. Sometimes, as previously discussed, handlers and judges take "rule change" matters into their own hands. They go ahead and rewrite the rules in the woods when it suits them and then immediately change them back when its done.
You stated in your last post the very simple and easiest absolute cure for this problem...don't put a mean dog in a hunt!!!! But, just like rewriting the rules...stupid people do stupid things and you cant fix stupid!!!!

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-03-2015 03:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
...I am not saying they are perfect, but as far as "rules being better" what would you change???

The rules are there and they are pretty good. The only thing that needs to be changed are peoples perspectives and how they are applied.
It is simple, dogs should be "scratched for fighting". And if you don't know what a dog fight looks like or sounds like then you are the problem, not the rules.
Dogs should be "scratched for aggresive behavior with interference". If you don't know what aggresive behavior or interference is then you are the problem, not the rules.
Almost everyone knows what these terms mean, they just hate to see their dog scratched.

Any dog can be written up for fighting by being in the wrong place at the wrong time once and maybe even twice. But if a dog is written up three times then he/she should definately be barred. Why doesn't UKC post a list of dogs and owners/handlers that have been scratched for fighting more than once? This would be almost as good as barring the owner/handler. Peer pressure can have a very good effect sometimes.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-03-2015 03:51 PM:

Is "knowingly entering a mean dog" in a UKC hunt unsportsmanlike conduct and grounds for being barred? Has anyone ever been written up for "knowingly entering a mean dog" in a UKC hunt?

Posted by buck brush on 04-03-2015 04:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Is "knowingly entering a mean dog" in a UKC hunt unsportsmanlike conduct and grounds for being barred? Has anyone ever been written up for "knowingly entering a mean dog" in a UKC hunt?

how would you prove that they knowingly entered a mean dog, that is why I think if your dog gets barred for fighting 3 times in the same year, the handler should be barred also.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-03-2015 04:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by buck brush
how would you prove that they knowingly entered a mean dog,

That really shouldn't be too hard to prove. If the general opinion of handlers in your area is that your dog is mean then he/she is probably mean. Most handlers at a hunt know which dogs are mean and need to be watched. Or if your dog has been scratched 3 times in another KC for fighting so you just switch KC's, then your dog is mean. Or if as you say, you enter/handle a dog and it gets scratched 3 times, then you knowingly entered a mean dog. So there you go. If you really think that a handler needs to be barred when their dog is written up 3 times, have you ever written one up for unsportsmanlike conduct for hunting a mean dog.?

Posted by blackflagginit on 04-03-2015 07:18 PM:

I could sit here and list ......prob 100 dogs , some from every breed, who had 3 things in common. 1) won big hunts and lots of them 2) were successful in the breeding pen and 3) were mean as a rattlesnake but smart enough or light broke well enough to never or rarely get caught.

and those are just the ones with personal knowledge, not the hearsay cases.

most of the scratches I have heard of or know of over these many years, were not deserved. or at the least cases of the wrong dog being scratched.

a face barker or one who "just keeps everyone out of its bubble" meets up with one who decides not to take it. after being nipped and blowed at a couple times, or landed on by a tree jacker, they have enough. most of the times those handlers are telling the truth, they really never saw that dog do that before..........the pros would have broke it from fighting in FRONT OF PEOPLE if they had anyway.

or a face barker ends up in a cast where even the slightest hint of aggression means a scratch and a true dog fight never happened.

the point here is that a TRUELY mean dog is not going to get caught because the true pros at it have a nack for .......not getting caught. either naturally or taught.

Posted by blackflagginit on 04-03-2015 07:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Is "knowingly entering a mean dog" in a UKC hunt unsportsmanlike conduct and grounds for being barred? Has anyone ever been written up for "knowingly entering a mean dog" in a UKC hunt?

not that I ever heard of

Posted by Fisher13 on 04-03-2015 07:23 PM:

Every fight I have ever seen the dogs didn't care who was watching.

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Posted by buck brush on 04-03-2015 08:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
That really shouldn't be too hard to prove. If the general opinion of handlers in your area is that your dog is mean then he/she is probably mean. Most handlers at a hunt know which dogs are mean and need to be watched. Or if your dog has been scratched 3 times in another KC for fighting so you just switch KC's, then your dog is mean. Or if as you say, you enter/handle a dog and it gets scratched 3 times, then you knowingly entered a mean dog. So there you go. If you really think that a handler needs to be barred when their dog is written up 3 times, have you ever written one up for unsportsmanlike conduct for hunting a mean dog.?

I have written more people up then you know I hate mean dogs and handlers that are cheats.

Posted by buck brush on 04-03-2015 08:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
That really shouldn't be too hard to prove. If the general opinion of handlers in your area is that your dog is mean then he/she is probably mean. Most handlers at a hunt know which dogs are mean and need to be watched. Or if your dog has been scratched 3 times in another KC for fighting so you just switch KC's, then your dog is mean. Or if as you say, you enter/handle a dog and it gets scratched 3 times, then you knowingly entered a mean dog. So there you go. If you really think that a handler needs to be barred when their dog is written up 3 times, have you ever written one up for unsportsmanlike conduct for hunting a mean dog.?

I have written more people up then you know I hate mean dogs and handlers that are cheats.

Posted by blackflagginit on 04-03-2015 10:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
Every fight I have ever seen the dogs didn't care who was watching.

you haven't seen the pros at work. when someone knows a dog is rough they do one of 2 things.

not enter the dog in a night hunt because its GOING to get scratched.

or BREAK the dog from fighting around people, the term "light broke alligator" didn't just invent itself......like I said before the truly MEAN dogs that win at the hunts can eat a dog up and never make a sound doing it. they also act like angels when hunters are around.

I remember once, years and years ago, when a cast of dogs from a night hunt came into a tree with ours while pleasure hunting. we were off to the side with the lights off but it was pretty moonlit that night. I don't think the cast dogs knew we were there at first.

a redbone in that cast ran up and cleaned that tree like moses parting the red sea. then dared anything else to get close. never made a sound doing it, just went tooth deep in everything close. 5 dogs sat back and it started cranking out the tree barks.

I picked up a broken limb and knocked that redbone clean out, leashed our 2 dogs and started for the truck. Im not sure those guys from the cast ever knew exactly what happened that night.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-03-2015 10:32 PM:

I had a young male dog once that was "reverse light" broke. He was actually a big chicken. If another dog got after him at a tree, he would stand back until he saw me get there. Then he would nail the other dog because he thought that I would protect him and not let him get hurt. It didn't take him long to learn that I didn't "have his back" and that I was worse than the other dogs.

Posted by shadinc on 04-04-2015 02:13 AM:

The best coon hound I ever owned was a male dog out of Finley River Banjo. He was a good strike dog, a good stay all night tree dog and it was almost impossible to get a first tree ahead of him. But...........he would not stay at a tree with a growling dog. If we had all used this type dog for our studs instead of "OLE ain't nobody gonna make him leave a tree", this thread would never have been started.

Posted by Stan Ferrell on 04-04-2015 03:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
So the simple answer is 2 dogs fight, because no one saw it, the 2 dogs involved get scratched because the aggressor can not be identified period.

What dog fight? I didn't hear nuttin.

Posted by Billy Beckham on 04-04-2015 05:29 AM:

What started out as a decent topic became very boring very fast.
Simply put we breed them to be intense stay put tree dogs and we can't handle the results.

there has always been means ones, face barkers, light broke, I call some silent killers its nothing new.
I have a tree jacker right now, cant break him of it and I have seen him and two other dogs fall over each other all night and never have a issue but put one bugged eyed, on the wood tree dog in there and you will have a fight everytime. So who is at fault.

I was told once there is no need to worry about it, just go hunting and let the chips fall where they may.

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Posted by Stan Ferrell on 04-04-2015 02:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Billy Beckham
What started out as a decent topic became very boring very fast.
Simply put we breed them to be intense stay put tree dogs and we can't handle the results.

there has always been means ones, face barkers, light broke, I call some silent killers its nothing new.
I have a tree jacker right now, cant break him of it and I have seen him and two other dogs fall over each other all night and never have a issue but put one bugged eyed, on the wood tree dog in there and you will have a fight everytime. So who is at fault.

I was told once there is no need to worry about it, just go hunting and let the chips fall where they may.

You are sooooo correct. There in lies the problem. You come back for deadline and find a knowen gator with 550 plus CW, and you had your dog SFF cause some one "heard" a fight .

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