UKC Forums - Crossbred breed

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-- Crossbred breed (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928308077)

Posted by tylerman on 03-19-2013 09:24 PM:

They voted to close it after lil red done so well and jack pot jackie was bred to a walker..I think it opened some eyes and drove fear of the lost attention in others..it is what most believe a few governing the masses.

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 03-19-2013 09:27 PM:

lots of KNOWN crossbred dogs have been single registered over the years. the thing is this...ever wonder why something strange all of a sudden pops up in a litter of puppies that are PURE as snow???? I know the answer, some people raise a litter off of ol blue and their super nice tri color walker female and they only register the ones that will pass for walkers. the rest they give away or hunt in other registries as cross breeds. now one of the pups turns out to be a dandy and it is bred with the full intent of being full blooded walker cause that is what the papers say right? hmmmm

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-19-2013 09:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
James and Shane - thanks for your clarification. I would agree with you guys, in that we do need to handle the aspect of what can be registered, and under what circumstances. And in the spirit of that dialogue, my personal opinion is that we shouldn't "register" or "pedigree" something that is not worthy of a pedigree, simply to generate money or satisfy someone's competitive spirit.

Registering a mix or cross breed, sounds like a convoluted way to make money on officially calling something a mutt! Single registering something, is like saying it's not quite what I say it is!?!

So those are valid arguments and points to be made, otherwise I'm back to holding a buddy hunt or spending the time to officially pedigree something that is worthy of a pedigree.

Thank you for your perspective!

I guess that is my point also. I don't want to exclude them from competing...but, I do not want to see any purebred breeds blood purposefully mixed with and diluted buy the blood of other breeds. We have been trying to breed pure breds for many, many years ...and now people want to go back to what was done over a hundred years ago before each breed had a separate and distinct identity. Pkc opened up a category for crossbreeds so they could compete and I have no problem with that. But I do have a problem with people trying to force their crossbreeds into the established pure breeds in UKC under the term single registered. Some breeds allow it...others have chosen not to. Those who have chosen not to through a majority vote of their membership...should be respected for that decision to make every effort to keep that breed pure....and not denounced for it by a few in the minority who disagree with the majority. They want to try to gain support on this forum so they can make a motion at our breed association meeting in July to overturn this rule that was voted into effect about 3 or 4 years ago (after little red was single registered, for the guy who asked).
That is their right if they want to make a motion....but I have to wonder why they think just 3 or 4 years after the majority voted in favor of the rule....why they think they can expect any different result from another vote on the same issue.....shane

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-19-2013 09:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tylerman
They voted to close it after lil red done so well and jack pot jackie was bred to a walker..I think it opened some eyes and drove fear of the lost attention in others..it is what most believe a few governing the masses.

Actually, I believe it was voted into effect before or during the time lil red was winning and well before jackpot jackie was ever bred to a walker. I don't think it is accurate to say that these dogs were the reason why the rule was changed. There were many other reasons discussed before the vote and they were valid reason and had to do with continuing to keep the breed as pure as possible.

Posted by shawn mullinnix on 03-19-2013 09:50 PM:

I wish a UKC registered dog (any breed of the 6 hound groups) X UKC registered dog (any of the 6 hound groups) would = UKC Cross-bred. JMO

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 03-19-2013 09:54 PM:

There is a time that a breed becomes stale and stagnate or from Back yard breeders unknowingly Diluting the Quality in the Breed .. As long as every "Pure Bred" puppy automatically gets a set of Papers the likelihood of that pup being Bred are Very High weather it meets the High standards Required to Move a breed Forward or Not ..

The next thing to do is "Wash" the breed to put the Quality back in, But what will you turn to ?? The Finest and Best Qualities may not be in Your Chosen Breed ...

Its like how would you be certin that your Adding back in the Highest Tracking and Trailing Ablities ?? Oh you will here about this one or that one having a Cold nose .. But unless you go and Test the Hound yourself its not certin !!

The only way is to go Back to the source of the Hounds nose and breed it back in ..

Even the Purest longest Bred hounds in the World allow the "Outcross"

http://www.mfha.org/hounds-registration.html

OUTCROSS. Descendants of an outcross to another scenting breed (such as beagle, coon-hound, bloodhound) may be listed with the Keeper of the Stud Book providing that other requirements are met and providing that there is not more than one such non-foxhound outcross in the third generation or not more than 1/8th total outcross. The progeny may be eligible for registration in accordance with the 1/16th outcross rules regarding the registration of American, English, Crossbred and Penn-Marydel foxhounds.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 03-19-2013 10:55 PM:

It seems like we're asking to take two steps backwards.

Something has value based on how rare it is... diamonds, gold, a top redbone (sorry Shane, that was a cheap shot). Pedigreed cattle are more valuable than grade stock, and the same for horses etc. And mostly this has more to do with what you can come to count on and expect, than simply the piece of paper. So if anything tri-colored can be called a Walker, and anything all red can be called a Redbone, than what really is a Walker and a Redbone??? You will end up destroying the very breed you were seeking your dog to be.

The same with competition events. A UKC hunt is really only open to those belonging to this semi-exclusive club. And it's for that very reason that folks want that UKC trophy, instead of a club trophy from a buddy hunt. So if it's no longer exclusive, and anyone can enter, anything, what seperates it from the group of guys getting together at the truck stop?

If anything can become single registered, as anything and hunted in any registries events, then why would we need registries??? The reason for registries and breed associations, is to govern what is acceptable and not acceptable in these semi-exclusive clubs. If you water all that down, you will destroy what so many have spent so long creating and developing and nothing will have value any more. Then the very people that were for these activities, will be the first ones to call this breed or that kennel club a joke.

In my opinion, this is a very dark path that is counter-productive.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-19-2013 11:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
It seems like we're asking to take two steps backwards.

Something has value based on how rare it is... diamonds, gold, a top redbone (sorry Shane, that was a cheap shot). Pedigreed cattle are more valuable than grade stock, and the same for horses etc. And mostly this has more to do with what you can come to count on and expect, than simply the piece of paper. So if anything tri-colored can be called a Walker, and anything all red can be called a Redbone, than what really is a Walker and a Redbone??? You will end up destroying the very breed you were seeking your dog to be.

The same with competition events. A UKC hunt is really only open to those belonging to this semi-exclusive club. And it's for that very reason that folks want that UKC trophy, instead of a club trophy from a buddy hunt. So if it's no longer exclusive, and anyone can enter, anything, what seperates it from the group of guys getting together at the truck stop?

If anything can become single registered, as anything and hunted in any registries events, then why would we need registries??? The reason for registries and breed associations, is to govern what is acceptable and not acceptable in these semi-exclusive clubs. If you water all that down, you will destroy what so many have spent so long creating and developing and nothing will have value any more. Then the very people that were for these activities, will be the first ones to call this breed or that kennel club a joke.

In my opinion, this is a very dark path that is counter-productive.

Again...very well said!

Posted by shawn mullinnix on 03-19-2013 11:07 PM:

I don't understand guys. What are we watering down by breeding a coonhound of one breed to a coonhound of another and calling it a cross-bred? I think there is more watering down going on now with having to single register a dog. Having a cross-bred breed as it's own breed would eliminate the watering down of the pure bred breeds. Only my opinion.

Posted by amazingcursouth on 03-19-2013 11:33 PM:

I hunt treeing curs mainly and here is how i feel about the standards. My thing is that in order to be a treeing cur it must come from a cur of treeing parents and hound of trreeing parents. therefore when you cross back within the cur breed you are still crossing treeing line to treeing line. lots of people don't wont crossbred hounds or cur in the hunts because it makes people nervous.

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 03-19-2013 11:39 PM:

i have a nice little cur female that will be bred to hardwood bean soon as she comes in season. the purpose for this is to have the brains of a cur with tree of a hound. it works

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Posted by Blacklabel on 03-20-2013 12:56 AM:

Its not watering down at all. Lets use cattle for example ..

Good Black Angus cow x Good Hereford Bull = outstanding black white face calf, superior to either parents.

Its not watering down at all, its using 2 different breeds to complement each other for a better offspring.

Im in dogs to compete, i want the best i can afford regardless of color or size or breed.

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Posted by nitehunter2004 on 03-20-2013 01:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
i have a nice little cur female that will be bred to hardwood bean soon as she comes in season. the purpose for this is to have the brains of a cur with tree of a hound. it works

I'm excited, an my grandson will have his first dog from this cross.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-20-2013 02:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blacklabel
Its not watering down at all. Lets use cattle for example ..

Good Black Angus cow x Good Hereford Bull = outstanding black white face calf, superior to either parents.

Its not watering down at all, its using 2 different breeds to complement each other for a better offspring.

Im in dogs to compete, i want the best i can afford regardless of color or size or breed.

But Justin...some breeds have standards that revolve around color or color pattern...and you cannot deviate from that or it wont fit the breed standard. You seem to be only concerned with ability...and that is fine...but there are only a couple of breeds that are soo wide open on the standards of color that they can look almost like any other hound breed and its ok. But a few of the breeds must fit a certain color pattern. In my opinion that is what has made it harder for them to keep up with some of the other breeds who could care less what they look like. I wish ability was the only think I had to worry about as a redbone breeder....but its not. I am not a show person either and I am not talking about breeding show dogs....I am talking about having to keep the solid red color over most of the dog except what little is allowed on toes and in chest. To much crossbreeding and you wont get dogs that will fit the standards anymore for this breed.

Posted by amazingcursouth on 03-20-2013 02:25 AM:

tim my cur female is grand daughter to rat attack on top and nailor on bottom with some sho nuff nice cur dogs in between. i feel that bean will compliment this breeding to the T. her dad was 1/2 amazing cur 1/2 rat attack. amy's swamp rat dog is her sire.

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Posted by Blacklabel on 03-20-2013 03:15 AM:

Shane ur missing the point.

Lets say they decide to open a crossbred "breed", just for arguments sake.

You knowingly breed Bree to Mojo, just for arguments sake. I believe they could compliment each other for a better offspring. She is from a line of reproducers, he is proving to be an abover average reproducer.

Now for the watering down part. Ukc registers these pups as crossbred, they stay there, any pups they produce, also stay there. They can never be registered pure anything. Thats how i would do it.. jmo

Those pups would be eligible for SS for 3yrs, PP for life, Mojo Madness %or few years, and Pup tickets for truck hunt.

Thats could be alot of money, if you get in on HALF of it.

Is it worth it PERFORMANCE wise? I think so.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 03-20-2013 05:00 AM:

In my opinion, some of you guys are missing the point of "registration" which is the act of qualifying or certifying something to a standard. To register something as a mix, is an oxymoron. What you are saying is that it officially doesn't meet the standard of either breed or pedigree. Or in other words, it is now officially not something else!

Please explain the point of seeking to register a dog as officially a mix or in other words a "mutt". I'm not bashing the attempt to create a new breed, but until you have enough generations under your belt, it's not a new breed, it's a mutt.

Now... if that meets your needs and pleasure, so be it. I'm not against people breeding whatever they want, I just don't recommend pretending like it's something else, which is what single registry, is basically doing.

Some folks might be perfectly happy with buying a cubic zirconia off the home shopping network, and maybe it's pretty and serves their needs, but that doesn't give them the right to start calling them diamonds and selling it to others as a diamond. It's nice, but it's not as rare as a diamond!

Now... again, if all of this is about competition hunting, then have a buddy hunt, enter a PKC hunt, or go to the ACHA World Hunt, if you have the best thing since sliced bread! But why go to an exclusive club, and ask them to be non-exclusive. In other words, do you want UKC to do this, because they're UKC. But if they do, will that have the same meaning?

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Posted by Blacklabel on 03-20-2013 05:11 AM:

Im just in it to hunt. I dont breed on a regular basis, but i would croos some dogs up if that was the direction i wanted to go..

So registered as crossbred is BETTER then single registering and mixing that in your pures? Agreed?

Thats how i would rather see it done so some are more honest and can have a place to put our mutts. Instead of the behind the woodpile breedings getting slipped in where they can

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-20-2013 05:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blacklabel
Shane ur missing the point.

Lets say they decide to open a crossbred "breed", just for arguments sake.

You knowingly breed Bree to Mojo, just for arguments sake. I believe they could compliment each other for a better offspring. She is from a line of reproducers, he is proving to be an abover average reproducer.

Now for the watering down part. Ukc registers these pups as crossbred, they stay there, any pups they produce, also stay there. They can never be registered pure anything. Thats how i would do it.. jmo

Those pups would be eligible for SS for 3yrs, PP for life, Mojo Madness %or few years, and Pup tickets for truck hunt.

Thats could be alot of money, if you get in on HALF of it.

Is it worth it PERFORMANCE wise? I think so.

I have said from the beginning I am not against crossbreeding....I just don't want them single registered as redbones. If ukc opens a crossbreed option like pkc fine. But they have not...and may not....and so these guys who want to make crossbreeds try to change the rules of the redbone breed association which prohibits it...or they just lie or slap papers on to make them a "redbone". A crossbreed is a crossbreed and should not be registered into a pure breed....that is my opinion. The problem is...I do not think ukc will do this on their own. I think it will take a group of people to organize an association that represents this option and sets rules and standards and then ukc might consider chartering such a thing. Pkc has done this so its not like it is new or unproven...but I think it will take a group of people working together to make it happen. Until such time I am still against allowing crossbreeds to be single registered in the redbone breed....just like the majority of the membership. I do not really mind competing against them...if they are identified as a separate "breed category"....just don't want a half breed to be called a redbone when it is just as much another breed. Hope that better explains my position on this.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-20-2013 05:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blacklabel
Im just in it to hunt. I dont breed on a regular basis, but i would croos some dogs up if that was the direction i wanted to go..

So registered as crossbred is BETTER then single registering and mixing that in your pures? Agreed?

Thats how i would rather see it done so some are more honest and can have a place to put our mutts. Instead of the behind the woodpile breedings getting slipped in where they can

Yes I agree with that. But I would not think that they would be registered in the same way the purebreds are. It would be more of a category they could compete under in ukc events.

Posted by Jonathan Crump on 03-20-2013 12:36 PM:

A lot of the old timers around here tell me they used to hunt grade dogs against the pure breed dogs and more times than not the grade dog left with the prize. I understand wanting to keep a Redbone red and a Bluetick blue but what would it hurt to cross a Redbone and a Bluetick and register the litter as other or croosbreed. If a dog is registered as other or crossbreed so must all of the offspring from now on. JMO

I'll have a crossbreed dog in my stable next spring. We are breeding coondog to coondog with no worries of color.

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Posted by Preston Owens on 03-20-2013 12:52 PM:

Crossbreeding

I took a nice guy hunting 2 winters ago from texas, his dogs name was Rex, he had a crossbred dog that cleaned house in PKC. A lot of old timers liked "crossbreeding" making "mutts" and having real coondogs. I respect both sides of this discussion. The linebreeding I've been doing the past couple years has shown me it works, the older pups will soon be in the hunts. When it comes time for an outcross I sure hope to be able to find the desired traits in my breed, if they aren't there a linebreeding program could fall very short of its original goal. If single registering was more open a serious breeder might have a chance to move a step further everytime an outcross was needed to give him his add in traits. If you outcross just for color it could be a huge set back. Continue on, this seems to be a civil thread.

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 03-20-2013 01:10 PM:

Were Not talking about "Mutts" (unknown Origins) Were talking about Crossbreeding ( An Educated and intentional breeding of 2 Known Registered Breeds )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongrel

Question " Why are 90% of all the Ads on here are about "Old Blood" "

Everyone is Reaching Back to What ?? A Better Hound then What they Have today .. This is a Indication that the Breeds are going Stale ..

Cross Breeding is a Extremely Dedicated and Expansive Breeding Program !! It Requires keeping most of a litter to entire litters of pups, all raised and developed together to Assess the Cross and Determine which Pups continue on in the next Breeding ..

I don't have 50 hounds for nothing ..

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 03-20-2013 01:40 PM:

Two years ago I had 10 pups using a very rare French Breed Female bred to my stock of Treeing Walker/English/Bluetick/Bloodhound ..

To this day I still have all 10 Pups "Hounds Now" Selections have been made to Continue ..

Posted by pigman816 on 03-20-2013 01:40 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by deschmidt27
[B]In my opinion, some of you guys are missing the point of "registration" which is the act of qualifying or certifying something to a standard. To register something as a mix, is an oxymoron. What you are saying is that it officially doesn't meet the standard mnvnbmvnmbvnbvof either breed or pedigree. Or in other words, it is now officially not something else!

I agree, HOWEVER.....these crosses are being made NOW and being registered as a bluetick, english, walker, etc. They definately are not any of those, correct? So, what are they? Crossbred mutts, right? The only reason I am for having a crossbred registry, is to help minimize the pollution in the purebred registries. Does that make sense? ........As for competition goes, Im not much of a comp hunter. I consider eery night in the woods a buddy hunt. LOL......I get what you are saying, and I do not disagree. I just believe that we are past the point of what you are saying. With single registry being an option, this can of worms stays open. JMO

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