UKC Forums - A Breeding Experiment Explained

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-- A Breeding Experiment Explained (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928272824)

Posted by warn on 10-25-2013 10:08 PM:

If that chop mouth female gets to draggin ya down you just send her north she can live at my place I have "NO PROBLEM" with it

__________________
if its there eventually it will look

Mark Warner

"HOME OF PREDAWN KENNELS"

http://www.tekonshathunder.homestead.com

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-25-2013 10:17 PM:

I appreciate the offer, but truth be told, I've been getting more enjoyment out of her lately!

She's in heat again, otherwise I'd be hunting the hair off her, right now. The old man, did put on a clinic for his pup, last night, though...

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by warn on 10-25-2013 10:29 PM:

Dave, could you post the pedigree of boom and the female you are raising the pups from

__________________
if its there eventually it will look

Mark Warner

"HOME OF PREDAWN KENNELS"

http://www.tekonshathunder.homestead.com

Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-25-2013 10:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by warn
TOO BLAME!!!!!!!!!!!! Isn't that a harsh way to put it Joe. She was as much a coondog as anyone could ask for even if she was a chop mouth dog. You bawl mouth folks but way to much stock into a bawl mouth dog. That is no different than me prefering blanket back red heads that you scoff about............................

not to mention you have been trying to get me to bring a female down to breed for years.............. and you know all my stuff or crap goes back to that worthless chop mouth dog

Woa there Mark...I'm not poking holes in Dawn....just using the fact that I took a pair of dogs that were the type of dog that made a near perfect cross from my perspective. Out of that cross were several dogs that most folks would be proud to own.

Matter of fact...Dave's Boom dog is out of that very cross....the loudest bawl mouth dog that I've seen for years and years....made the cross several times and one ONE pup out of the two or three litters from that cross, and other crosses out of that same female...and only one chop mouth pup......

I bred and hunted Ruby and enjoyed her abilities in the woods, and in the whelping box for years....all the while knowing that her momma was a chop mouth track dog. Matter of fact when I hunted with Dawn, it wasn't like I was hating life cause I hunted with a chop mouth track dog!

I started Boom's sister, and had no fewer than six or seven young started dogs and all but one of them were bawl mouth track dogs, and my preference in dogs is a bawl mouth track dog....so I sold her. Later, on the death of Ruby I drove from northern Indiana to North Carolina to get that chop mouth track dog BACK....

So please don't be offended by that comment....I was just trying to point out that I knew all along that there was a possibility that I would get a chop mouth track dog, and when I did....I knew where it came from...no surprises!

I still believe that if you are truly being selective in your breeding choices, if there is something about the dog you are breeding you don't like...don't breed it. That is the best way to make sure that you don't end up with traits you don't like.... I PREFER to hunt bawl mouth track dogs. Not any different than I PREFER to hunt dogs that use their mouth according to the track conditions...I don't like dogs that use too much mouth, and I don't like dogs that never open on the ground... How they use their mouth, and they type of mouth they have has as much to do with their ability to do their job as what color they are.....And Dawn was about as good at getting a coon up a bush as anything I'd ever turned loose or seen turned loose...that is why her daughter was a part of my breeding program then, and her grand-daughters are a part of my breeding program now....

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Roger Wilson on 10-26-2013 12:11 AM:

quote:
..

[/B]

That one on the right looks moody ha ha

__________________
Roger Wilson
Cane River Track Dogs
www.caneriverdogs.com

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-26-2013 02:05 AM:

Mark - Instead of typing it all up, I'll see if I can dig it up, and post it on here. I have it somewhere, already typed!

Joe - If I accept what you write as absolute, then you and I are of a different opinion. But I'm not sure that's the case...

When you write, "if there is something about the dog you are breeding you don't like... don't breed it." Are you saying that there is absolutely nothing you don't like about Thorn or Cube? Because you have chose to breed them repeatedly. Was there nothing you didn't like about Joker, Hitman, Ruby, Powder etc. etc.??? Really?

I'm not slamming them, I just struggle to believe that you , of all people, couldn't find a fault in them, somewhere. But if you did, accordingly, you wouldn't have bred them.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't breed them myself, in fact I'm quite glad you bred Joker and Ruby, or I wouldn't have Boom. I just can't imagine the imperfect dog out there, where we would refuse to breed it, because there was just one thing about it, we didn't like!?! There's no such thing as perfection, which means there will always be at least one little thing we didn't like.

Certainly, that's not what you mean...

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by Jackson87 on 10-26-2013 03:38 AM:

Every dog has some sort of fault.The theory that breeding stock is perfect is hogwash.I understand what Joes sayin about chop mouthed dogs.I really can't stand them but if someone else likes them that's fine with me.Also agree with you Dave where you said if your hound has 80% of the traits and style you like then breed it and try to improve in that other 20%.This is a very good thread!!!

Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-26-2013 03:52 AM:

Put another way Dave....and I know that you have heard me say this a thousand times....If you don't want another one "just like it", don't breed it.

I've never seen a perfect dog, and when I become complacent about seeking a "better dog"...I quit.

I think the issue here is that we tend to think in literal terms about a imperfect, often illogical approach to breeding. We often think that we know what we are doing, when in reality each and every cross we make has up to 39 BILLION different genetic combination possibilities. We have NO control over what happens when we make any cross, by inbreeding or line breeding we can reduce the overall number of combinations possible, but not by enough to say much of anything for certain.

We are not breeding chickens who's job it is to lay eggs.....these are performance animals....and we can line up traits like voice, color, and to some degree intelligence, tree style, among a few others....We can take a young dog with some level of genetic potential and we can get it in the right hands to give that pup every possible chance to become a good hunting dog. That is about as much as we as breeders can do.

There are a lot of things we can't breed for, and even more that we can not control. Some folks are under the impression that every dog that is line bred is just like the one on the next teat....and that simply isn't true. We are breeding individuals, that all have individual strengths and weaknesses. Every once in a while a dog is born with that "something special" that we all seek...just like every once in a while a human is born with some special talent or ability. Michael Jordan's are not born every day. And we are all breeding for the Michael Jordan of the coonhound world.

So to answer your question would I want another dog just like Thorn, or just like Cube, or just like Ruby, or just like my old Julie dog, or just like Joker.....The answer to that is simple....HECK YEAH....I'll take a kennel full, and that is why I breed them, that is why I breed them to each other.....because I do in fact want another one just like them.

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-26-2013 03:05 PM:

Because I know you, that's what I assumed you meant, but other's may have taken you literally!

Would I have another Boom in my kennel? Absolutely!!! Is there something about him I don't like? Yes, he is not perfect. And if I was a hard-core competition hunter, I probably wouldn't want one just like him. It would be too frustrating. But I hunt year around, some hide hunting, a little bit of competition and because of my circumstances, probably about 75% either by myself or with my young boys! And under those circumstances, he provides me a great deal of pleasure! So I'll except his quirks and be willing to breed him again, looking for that pup that is like him an then some.

Now was this a good "experiment"... no, I failed to control it! Originally I was going to keep a female and two male pups. But then I let the last two females, go. Then I was going to start the two male pups and then decide which one I was going to keep. But then a friend said he wanted a pup for his boy, and I let that one go. AND it seems, it may be wasting away in a kennel. And then finally, I dropped my guard and my pup got hit on the road! There goes all the test subjects!!!

I can say this though... there are two pups in that litter that are coming along and have a great deal of potential! They are independent, with their dad's over-powering loud bawl mouth. They're gritty and hard tree dogs, but the rest remains to be seen. And a similar cross has led to another pup that I now have that is really coming along, as well.

Am I making a mistake, breeding a dog with something I don't like about him. In my opinion, no, not with all that I do like about him. I raised two pups out of his first litter, that did not have his quirks. I now have a pup out of his third litter, that does not have his quirks, in fact in some regards has the opposite personality. Does that mean that his quirks are a product of nurture versus nature??? Well, there's no where near enough pups to make that determination. BUT, I would say it's enough to not make me avoid breeding him!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-26-2013 03:06 PM:

Here you go Mark...

*********** GR NT Logan's Wild Clover
******* PCH Stylish Clover
***********GR NT Korte’s Stylish Chirpee
***** NT CH The Joker
************ GR NT Ball's Stylish Hickory Nut Harry
******* NT CH Gadd's Indiana Singin Yaya
************ GR NT Starn's Oklahoma Sadie
NT CH Schmidt’s Roughneck Boom
************ PCH Stylish Clover
******** NT CH Stylish Oz
************ Stylish Lace
***** NT CH Oak Ridge Stylish Ruby
************ GR NT Rasen Stylish Jack
******* Gr NT Warner’s Pre Dawn
************ GR NT Reincke’s Hanna The Dog

Roughneck Pup (2 months old)

*********** GR NT GR CH Robinson’s Red Eagle Casey II
******* GR NT GR CH Red Eagle Casey III
*********** NT CH Spencers Lockdown Iba Midoosa
***** GR NT Grimes Hickory Pride
************ GR NT Buckhorn Mtn. Nightime Savage
******* GR NT Nighttime Lady
************ GR NT Yadkin River Belle
Roughneck Too Much Color
************ Gr Nt House’s Lipper
******** Gr Nt Lipper’s Stylish Cade
************ GR NT Sackett Jr’s Stylish Jill
***** Lipper’s Whiskey Girl
************ GR NT Stylish Harry’s Freak Show
******** Nt Ch Hurricane Fancy
************ GR NT GR CH Stylish Cheyanna

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by Jackson87 on 10-26-2013 06:11 PM:

So did you say Too much color was a chop mouth track dog?

Posted by Larry Atherton on 10-26-2013 08:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge

Michael Jordan's are not born every day. And we are all breeding for the Michael Jordan of the coonhound world.

Joe,

You need a better analogy. Jordan wasn't a natural. It was either his High school or Junior High coach who told him to pick another sport.

Now, Magic Johnson was a natural.

I do understand your point ... just giving ya a little bit of a hard time.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-26-2013 09:04 PM:

Yes, Color is mostly a chop mouth on track. The word is, she gets that from her top-side. The bottom-side, as expected, has that big Lipper mouth.

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by Jackson87 on 10-26-2013 09:53 PM:

Yeah I guess that's the strange thing about traits.You just never know when that certain outnumbered traits will rise to the top.Biggest bawl mouth I ever heard was on a Red Eagle female.

Posted by warn on 10-27-2013 04:34 AM:

thats a pretty nice pedigree dave. I hope that your breeding venture works out well. Funny how things work out but the grand dam on the top of the bottom Sackett jrs. stylish jill,Dawn and that female made alot of trees together thru the years.

__________________
if its there eventually it will look

Mark Warner

"HOME OF PREDAWN KENNELS"

http://www.tekonshathunder.homestead.com

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-27-2013 02:36 PM:

Wow... that is a coincidence!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by deschmidt27 on 11-09-2013 06:14 PM:

Got tagged in Facebook, this morning, to a video of one of these pups in Indiana. A 78 pound monster, with a voice like his daddy or maybe louder (if that's possible). He got to the woods for the first time, just last month, for a couple weeks before running season ran out. Last night he treed three by himself, and got a piece of four others.

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by warn on 11-09-2013 07:32 PM:

sounds good Dave, when you breed again let me know I might be in the market for a reject pup!

__________________
if its there eventually it will look

Mark Warner

"HOME OF PREDAWN KENNELS"

http://www.tekonshathunder.homestead.com

Posted by Jackson87 on 11-09-2013 08:01 PM:

Man Dave 78 pounds is a big hound!!Id like to see a picture of that dude.Sounds like Boom is throwing some nice ones.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-29-2014 08:54 PM:

Matt - I was looking over this old post, and realized I never responded to your request. Here's that monster down in Indiana:

AND the reason I was reading this over, was the "experiment" accidentally happened again! It's not that I wasn't pleased with the results the first time, but I was really hoping to finish the momma out, this Fall! But, while I was at the Oaks, the neighbor was watching the dogs and found Boom in the WRONG kennel, one morning. So, I have 8 more!?!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by Jackson87 on 10-30-2014 04:11 AM:

Fine looking hound there Dave.Looks like your more successful at breeding than I am.Seems like Its hard to find the talent and brains all in one package.Its one extreme or the other.I either get wild and crazy or just average.Good luck with the new litter.Its a lot of work and I hope you get what your looking for.

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