UKC Forums - Judge this??

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 08:53 PM:

At some point Allen will weigh in here and tell us how to deal with the 2 that left. Maybe when they were seen on the previously scored tree the strike points dissapear too, either way they at this point are at large and i dont think a timeout is the correct move. What we dont know in this scenario is if the handlers had been instructed to handle their dogs before they left the tree.

Cant find anything in the rules about calling timeot for a discussion about all the mistakes we just made. Lol.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-27-2012 09:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
At some point Allen will weigh in here and tell us how to deal with the 2 that left. Maybe when they were seen on the previously scored tree the strike points dissapear too, either way they at this point are at large and i dont think a timeout is the correct move. What we dont know in this scenario is if the handlers had been instructed to handle their dogs before they left the tree.

Cant find anything in the rules about calling timeot for a discussion about all the mistakes we just made. Lol.

The two that are holding strike don't get deleted unless they come back into the dead tree. Timeout can not be called " to gather cast back together " while the two dogs are holding strike points. John I am not saying your post is wrong but agree with it. I think we should call timeout on this post because this hirse is dead until Allen or Todd revives it with an official ruling.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-27-2012 09:50 PM:

One last thing I just thought of. If the cast was close enough for the judge to see all dogs were on a previously scored tree and gave the order for dogs to be handled then all strike and tree points are deleted. At that point timeout can be called and the two dogs that left before they could be handled have an hour to be gathered up. That is the only way I can see timeout called in this situation. They still get deleted based on the judge seeing them on a previously scored tree.

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Posted by D.Boyd on 09-27-2012 11:29 PM:

We didn't know it was the same tree until we handled the dog that stayed
And we seen the 2 dogs leaving before we was told to handle them. Minus is the only way I can see it.

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Posted by Plott55 on 09-28-2012 12:27 AM:

Re: Judge this??

quote:
Originally posted by D.Boyd
Three dog cast. All dogs get treed. When we get there 2 dogs on one tree 1 on another 30 yards apart. Judge scores it as 2 trees. We walk from trees about 2 minutes and turn back loose. After a couple minutes 1 dog is struck and treed behind us in the general area of the last 2 trees and a little later the other 2 are treed. [[[[[[We start that way and as we arrive all dogs are seen on 1 tree and then as we get close 2 are seen leaving and go and get on their original tree that we had already scored.]] All of the cast see the 2 leave. The other dog is on her original tree. Now remember the judge originally scored it as 2 trees. Now the judge says the 2 moving were under the canoPy of one tree,which I've never seen in the rules. Question is how should the 2 dogs moving be scored? This happened in the semi finals of the world hunt. I know how it should have been scored. Just want more opinions. The judge didn't minus the dogs for moving if y'all want to know. Very weak judging.

This Is said in your original POST !!!
(((((WE START THAT WAY AND AS WE ARRIVE ALL DOGS ARE SEEN ON 1 TREE AND THEN AS WE GET CLOSE 2 ARE SEEN LEAVING AND GO AND GET ON THEIR ORIGINAL TREE THAT WE HAD ALREADY SCORED))))
Why do you change your story?????

Posted by englishbuddy on 09-28-2012 12:58 AM:

Re: Re: Judge this??

quote:
Originally posted by Plott55
This Is said in your original POST !!!
(((((WE START THAT WAY AND AS WE ARRIVE ALL DOGS ARE SEEN ON 1 TREE AND THEN AS WE GET CLOSE 2 ARE SEEN LEAVING AND GO AND GET ON THEIR ORIGINAL TREE THAT WE HAD ALREADY SCORED))))
Why do you change your story?????

So they were not at large at all just moved from 1 already scored dead tree to another already scored dead tree !!!!!!

Posted by l.lyle on 09-28-2012 01:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by D.Boyd
We didn't know it was the same tree until we handled the dog that stayed
And we seen the 2 dogs leaving before we was told to handle them. Minus is the only way I can see it.

Sounds minus happy to me. Was the scored tree a circle/slick that got circle? Or was there meat? Dogs returning to a scored tree , in this case the handlers called there dogs treed, but so what ? It is a scored tree already. What you want to do ? Score it again? Say you saw the coon the first time but on returning it is obviously slick. So what you gonna do? Take your minus points? No , you will say that it is a previously scored tree the dogs returned to and there are no points to be awarded. Even if all dogs had stayed on it it cannot be rescored and there are no points.

Even if a possum had crawled out of his hole while ya'll were gone and was sitting on the bottom limb it is not minus because that tree had been scored, it's a "dead" tree.

Posted by headless01 on 09-28-2012 02:15 AM:

judge

agree or disagree, its a dead tree.

Posted by jabrown on 09-28-2012 02:25 AM:

I think that you all are making this a little more complicated than it really is. If all dogs were seen to be on a previously scored tree, then delete all points. If you can't get them all gathered there, then you gotta get the handled dogs turned loose.

If you don't get all the dogs turned loose together, it creates an interesting scenario since a dog cant strike in for 100 unless all dogs are turned loose. Say in this scenario the dogs that weren't handled got their strike/tree points deleted and opened on a different track (at least three barks) before the handled dogs got turned loose. What point value would they get struck in for?

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Posted by elvis on 09-28-2012 02:58 AM:

my opinion is that if you tree your dog it will be minussed if it leaves. no exceptions.

Posted by Plott55 on 09-28-2012 03:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by D.Boyd
All dogs treed in. Upon arriving 2 are seen moving. The one that stayed was on her original tree and the 2 that left go to their original tree. The whole cast see both dogs leave the one tree and go to their previously scored tree. They were all called treed.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>POST #2<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

(((((((((((((((DELETE SCORES)))))))))))))))))))))))

Posted by D.Boyd on 09-28-2012 04:27 AM:

Quote"" quote:
Originally posted by Plott55
This Is said in your original POST !!!
(((((WE START THAT WAY AND AS WE ARRIVE ALL DOGS ARE SEEN ON 1 TREE AND THEN AS WE GET CLOSE 2 ARE SEEN LEAVING AND GO AND GET ON THEIR ORIGINAL TREE THAT WE HAD ALREADY SCORED))))
Why do you change your story?????

That was where they ended up after leavin the one that stayed. We didn't
Know till we handled. Don't see where it matters if its same tree they
Were seen moving from one tree to another.

What if they left that tree and went 200 yards and treed in. No difference
They moved and should be minused.

Posted by Tully on 09-28-2012 04:43 AM:

MINUS

If you walked in and saw them leave a tree, and return to a previously scored tree that was originally scored as a separate tree, they must be minused because they were not declared treed on the previously scored tree. They left a new tree, and that's where they were treed. Minus tree, and delete track when they tree on the old one. Then go find a new hunting spot without feeders

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Posted by l.lyle on 09-28-2012 05:03 AM:

Re: MINUS

quote:
Originally posted by Tully
If you walked in and saw them leave a tree, and return to a previously scored tree that was originally scored as a separate tree, they must be minused because they were not declared treed on the previously scored tree. They left a new tree, and that's where they were treed. Minus tree, and delete track when they tree on the old one. Then go find a new hunting spot without feeders

I just now walked two minutes across my yard at a brisk pace in shorts and moccasins. I was not leading a dog, through brush , or up a hill, just walking brisk and I only got two hundred yards. So! my question is? Why couldn't the cast tell they had gone back? If they did NOT think , then what were they to do? Risk "refusing calling their dog"? Of course they going to have to make a call if there is a minus orientated person in the bunch. So WHAT? It turns out to be a dead tree!!! Don't you get it??? They could have been playing with themselves at that point. It is a dead tree . What if two had met the handler ten yards from that dead tree? Somebody going to want to minus them for "putting their head down and going back on track"? and another set of minus for treeing the third time? On what I will bet was a Slick tree to start with. Ya'll are some minus happy folk is all I can guess and I'm happy I an't got to hunt with any of ya'll.

Is that the only way you can win is minus everybody elses' dog out instead of paying attention to your own dog? Be carefull , you might send the only dog in the crowd home that can put pluss points on the paper. LOL

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-28-2012 05:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by D.Boyd
We didn't know it was the same tree until we handled the dog that stayed
And we seen the 2 dogs leaving before we was told to handle them. Minus is the only way I can see it.

You can't minus for something that can not be scored, again. Dogs tree on dead tree, you see dogs on tree, dogs leave tree, tree is found to be previously scored tree, NO POINTS can be awarded in either direction. It does not matter if two dogs tree on a tree where another dog has already treed and been awarded points, it is still a dead previously scored tree and can not be scored again. Doesn't matter if they run a coon up it, it can not be scored two times.

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Posted by l.lyle on 09-28-2012 06:01 AM:

Re: MINUS

quote:
Originally posted by Tully
minused because they were not declared treed on the previously scored tree.D

Come again? That makes no sense!

Posted by D.Boyd on 09-28-2012 09:41 AM:

UKC. UKC. UKC. UKC. LoL

Posted by southernthunder on 09-28-2012 01:25 PM:

they need some lead poisoning lol someone give them a 22

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Posted by GA DAWG on 09-28-2012 03:58 PM:

We can't even get the story straight here. One time they are at the trees again. One time they have to be run down and caught. LOL!!! Now how'd it go again???????????

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Posted by pttm08 on 09-28-2012 04:12 PM:

I amy be totally wrong here since I am fairly new to competition hunting. However I have looked over and read the rulle book to try to understand everything. I have not ever seen any rule or sub rule that states you have to know it was a previous scored tree before you get to it or that every dog has to be scored on that tree. It just states a previous scored tree.
So as L.Lyle says once it is determined to be a dead tree it does not matter what happened before.

The entire story has got me confused as to really what happened.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 09-28-2012 04:58 PM:

I can only think of ONE scenario (that doens't mean they don't exist...I just can't think of another one) where a dog can take MINUS points for an act (striking or treeing) than he could not have receive PLUS points for.

In my mind, if the judge instructed them to handle the dogs , and they left before the handlers could catch them, that is one scenario....if they left prior to the judge making the determination that they were all on the same tree, that is another scenario...if it is later determined that the tree had already been scored, that throws some other variables into the mix.

IF (that is the key word) we take the fact that a dog can not receive minus for what it could not possibly be rewarded with plus points, a dog could not reasonably be minused for leaving a previously scored tree. HOWEVER, until the judge determines exactly what tree the dogs were on, we have no way of knowing that the dogs were on a previously scored tree. As soon as the judge says "handle them"....the scenario is set for this to be a "dead tree" and since they could not get plussed, they can't be minused.

One could argue all night about the strike points, but I would say that you would call time out, and the handlers would have an hour to catch the dogs for a re-cast or risk being scratched for delaying the cast.

If the dogs left before the judge made a determination which tree all of them were on, then they would be liable to be minused for being declared treed and leaving.....

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Posted by turman on 09-28-2012 05:31 PM:

As i said in his case he said the cast seen all the dogs on a previously scored tree and two left and went to another previously scored tree. Sure sounded like everyone agreed that they were on the same tree. I agree those dogs need some training but until Allen tells me otherwise i won't minus them.

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 09-28-2012 05:32 PM:

If they struck back in and treed back in, and left the tree, how can you not minus them? What did they supposedly strike back in on?

Posted by Tully on 09-28-2012 06:18 PM:

Re: Re: MINUS

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
Come again? That makes no sense!

He never said in the original post that the dogs were declared treed on a previously scored tree. He said they were all declared treed and as they arrived 2 dogs left and went back to a dead tree, that had previously been scored as an individual tree. Question is if both trees were dead. If the tree they left was not previously scored they have to be minused!

Posted by englishbuddy on 09-28-2012 06:34 PM:

Re: Judge this??

quote:
Originally posted by D.Boyd
Three dog cast. All dogs get treed. When we get there 2 dogs on one tree 1 on another 30 yards apart. Judge scores it as 2 trees. We walk from trees about 2 minutes and turn back loose. After a couple minutes 1 dog is struck and treed behind us in the general area of the last 2 trees and a little later the other 2 are treed. We start that way and as we arrive all dogs are seen on 1 tree and then as we get close 2 are seen leaving and go and get on their original tree that we had already scored. All of the cast see the 2 leave. The other dog is on her original tree. Now remember the judge originally scored it as 2 trees. Now the judge says the 2 moving were under the canoPy of one tree,which I've never seen in the rules. Question is how should the 2 dogs moving be scored? This happened in the semi finals of the world hunt. I know how it should have been scored. Just want more opinions. The judge didn't minus the dogs for moving if y'all want to know. Very weak judging.

Its says the 2 dogs left an went to their original tree and the other dog is on her original tree !!!! BOTH DEAD TREES

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