UKC Forums - Inbreeding Question

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-- Inbreeding Question (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=79960)

Posted by Rip on 01-31-2006 02:17 AM:

Justin, you are correct in that genes have mass, but you are wrong if you don't think they can be removed from the gene pool. You forget that each dog has a pair of identical chromosomes filled with genes. That means there are 4 possibilitys at each allele for each breeding. You can cull one particular trait, making sure that it is not passed on. After you have culled the last individual with the trait from your line you have eliminated that gene from your particular gene pool.

Take Hemophelia for example. It is an X linked recessive gene. If you have a male dog that has hemophelia then he WILL pass that gene on to each of his females so he is not breeding material.

Now you take his mom (she was an excellent dog or we wouldn't have bred her in the first place right?) and cull every female she ever has (cause 50% of them have hemophelia and you can't tell it till they have male pups with the disease) and cull every male that has Hemophelia. You keep the males that don't have hemophelia and you breed them only to a suitable female that has had a few litters and none of the males have hemophelia (since it is X linked recessive then roughly 50% of the male pups of any bitch that carries the disease will have hemophelia, after a few breedings without it you can be sure she isn't a carrier). Once you know you are breeding a hemophelia free male to a hemophelia free female and you inbreed you will never have the problem of hemophelia from your line of dogs again because there is not a hemophelia gene available to be transmitted.

You have removed the hemophelia gene from the gene pool of your dogs. That gene is gone. It didn't disappear, it was culled out and only the good X chromosomes from that female were selected.

This has been done with hemophelia in dogs before and it works. The defective gene was removed from the gene pool and will never be in there as long as the dogs are inbred.

Yes I realize that is a very simple example, but that is what is needed sometimes. The same approach works with autosomal genes but it is much more complicated with test breedings etc.

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Posted by Justin Smith on 01-31-2006 02:22 AM:

Rip , you can cite examples of genetics involving color , baldness , PLL ,etc .. but those things are their own creature ... science has no idea about the mode of inheritence or genetic mapping of performance traits .. if you knew which of those examples applied to a specific trait like nose , tree ,etc. then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And a dog still has to have "x" amount of genes to be a dog ... no more , no less .... you can play with them all you want but you gotta leave them in the sand box.

Posted by Rip on 01-31-2006 02:31 AM:

That's exactly what inbreeding is for, to make your sandbox small enough to control what's in it so you can put in or take out what you need to. Also, yes they do have to have a certian number of genes, but genes are made up of nucleic acids and while all dogs have the same number of genes the order of the acids makes it unique. You don't get rid of EVERY gene of the one you are selecting against, just the one particular gene with that particular acid sequence. So you are getting rid of gene 3-33333333, you still keep a copy of gene 3 in your line, but it does not have the -33333333 sequence that made it cause the disease. That -33333333 sequence is eliminated.

That's the whole point. This was an actual true life example that someone I know faced.

As for the other things, we don't know the exact linkages or which genes do what, probably never will. Heck there is no telling how many genes it takes just to make up a dogs voice, or it's tree desire etc. It could be in the thousands. We do however know the basic parameters of the modes of inheritance of all genes (at least we think we do).

However, through strict selection criteria and culling practices you can make better, more uniform strides through inbreeding and linebreeding than any other way. It produces the most consistant, most predictable results there are. So the breeder isolates exactly the kind of dog he wants but doesn't know which 1000 genes he has going for him. Does it really matter as long as it worked?

The only reason we know so much about hemophelia is becasue it is X linked recessive and is easy to study, however when they first removed it from lines they didn't have any clue which gene it was, only that they had sucessfully eliminated it from that line. Years later they realized just which gene they removed. They were able to remove it not because of knowing which gene it was, but by strict culling and selection and inbreeding.

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Posted by larrypoe on 01-31-2006 02:31 AM:

let see........1 example of a line that linebreeding improved..
Platt Valley, Timber Valley in english, Jet, smokey river,vaughn for blueticks. Wagner,Shanker b&t, need I go on?

Posted by Justin Smith on 01-31-2006 02:38 AM:

Rip , the science and literature on inbreeding animals comes from mostly livestock breeders or showdog breeders .

Inbreeding has different effects on different species , different strains and different dogs .... to quote/preach a hard and fast sermon on inbreeding isn't gonna do nothing but strain your voice.

Inbreeding as taught by the folks who used it for developing better domestic animals is good for narrowing traits and making a one dimensional animal that is plagued by things like low fertility , higher mortality at birth in some cases , inbred depression , higher chances for disease ,etc... that all goes against what you should do when breeding top coonhounds.

Posted by Rip on 01-31-2006 02:43 AM:

Justin, do you realize that you have to inbreed something like 20 generations just to get a small reduction in fertility (the first sign you need to outcross), let alone impared immune function or other things you listed? That's far from them being plagued with anything. If done right most folks wouldn't live long enough to perform 20 generations of inbreeding cause it would take 2-3 years between crosses for selection and most don't have the experience to know good breeding stock at a young age.

I am not preaching it, I never said it was the only tool, but I did say it was a great one. I don't do it and never have. I am not dedicated enough to do it, I don't have the time.

However, I was adding to this discussion to let folks see that the old wives tales just aren't true.

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Posted by Justin Smith on 01-31-2006 02:50 AM:

Rip , if you inbreed from a dominant tree dog ... would it take 20 generations to get more treedogs ?

If you inbreed from a dog that had fertility issues but not so bad that he didn't throw pups .... would it take 20 generations before you saw a decline in fertility ?

Inbreeding / Linebreeding / Outcrossing / Etc .. ... their usefullness and effectiveness is completely dependent on each dog you use and the culling process that you implement.

Posted by Rip on 01-31-2006 02:54 AM:

Yep, agree with you 100% on that. I also believe the biggest problems we have gettin quality pups is NOT the lack of breeders using inbreeding/linebreeding/ or outcrossing. It's the lack of SELECTION and breeding second rate dogs hoping to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

I should have said it takes about 20 generations to get to detrimental effects FROM inbreeding, and those are mild like a decrease in fertility, not like the old wives tales claim.

It will bring out problems already there pretty quickly.

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Posted by Justin Smith on 01-31-2006 02:57 AM:

Voyd , send me your password so I can clean out your pm folder .. it's full . I got something to say about Rip I don't want him to hear.

Posted by Rip on 01-31-2006 03:02 AM:

LOL.

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Posted by Luvmyhorse on 01-31-2006 03:12 AM:

quote:
[i]

Rip , genes have mass and are real .. you cannot extract them from a dog or gene pool ... you can turn them off or on .... but you cannot remove them .
[/B]

Justin,
I don't think this is completely accurate. Case and point if you will...

In horses there is a genetically linked disease called HYPP (hyperkalemic periodic paralysis). It is an inherited disease that leads to uncontrolled muscle twitching or profound muscle weakness, and in severe cases, may lead to collapse and/or death. This disease has been identified in the offspring of just one horse named "Impressive". It has only been linked to horses with him in their lineage. The offspring are either H/H (Homozygous for the disease and will show up 100% in all offspring), N/H (heterozygous for the disease and will show up in 50% of the offspring), and N/N (does not have the effected gene and cannot reproduce it)." Impressive" has produced all three conditions.

Fortunatly, it can be tested for. So you can have a foal tested if it has a parent that is N/H if it will be a carrier or totally free from the disease.

Without making this a long boring post, I just want to point out that this disease can be genetically eliminated (removed) from existance with selective breeding, and this includes line breeding on this line of horses. It just takes breeding a N/N to an N/N, or a N/H bred to a N/N and only use the offspring in a breeding program that are totally N/N. It takes responsible breeding, research, and dedication to make this happen. If it isn't there, it will never show up. It isn't hidden. The advantage to this genetic flaw is it can be tested for, therefore making it easier to identify the culls and undesirable breeding stock. I realize that isn't always the case in many undesirable traits.

Selective breeding, line breeding and hard culling for several generations are the only way to make a "line" free from those "unseen" undesirable traits.

__________________
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Oakridge Treeing Walkers and Newlin Quarter Horses
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Posted by Justin Smith on 01-31-2006 03:18 AM:

Rip/ Mrs Newlin , if you put some poop in a bucket of ice cream .. you can keep adding ice cream until you don't taste the poop but it's still in there.

How did Impressive invent a new disease ? He didn't .... the disease was already there but for some reason it revealed itself through him and you can breed away from it but it is still there now.

How do those child prodegies know how to play musical instruments like a pro at two years old without being taught ? .... it's in their genes just like it is in ours but for some reason it doesn't show up in us .. but it's there.

Posted by GalaxieMan on 01-31-2006 03:18 AM:

FAMILY BREEDING

Darren

You have the right idea when it comes to culling.
I agree with Oak Ridge.
Genes doe's not know relation. The only way to elemnate faults is through family breeding.Most of the bad things you hear are old wife tales.
How would you ever get a pure bread dogs without family breeding?

__________________
Leroy Perry

Posted by Rip on 01-31-2006 03:27 AM:

Justin, when you talk about turning genes off and on that is something called methylation. That is also part of the equation. There are also things called transcription factors that turn methylation on or off, and turn transcription of genes on or off. I'm not saying the process is not extremely complicated.

Every gene is not present in every human being. We don't all have the same potential. We all have the same number of genes, but they are made up of different nucleic acid sequences, which makes them unique if it changes the protein structure that is made from those genes. New mutations form all the time.

Genes are replicated, and segregated by a process called meiosis. That assures genetic diversity as well as sexual diversity. If the gene is not present it can't get reproduced. I only have 1 X chromosome, I can only copy that one, I am missing the one my father carried, it doesn't exist in me because he gave me a copy of his Y chromosome. I can't pass on his X chromosome genes, I can't copy them. They don't exist in me.

Anyway, I can see that I have done aggravated you, sorry if I got under your skin. I surely didn't mean to, I'm just enjoyin myself postin. I will try to leave this post alone now (notice I didn't promise, but I will try LOL)

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Posted by Luvmyhorse on 01-31-2006 03:34 AM:

Justin,
Yep, you are right about the poop in the ice cream. Have you ever been in a milking parlor when they are milking cows? There are lots of things that go in that milk that goes in the bulk tank that eventually makes it to our refrigerators. But there are processes used to remove those impurities.

Yes, the HYPP disease was in existance before Impressive, but his sire and dam were never tested as it was unknown and there was not a test for it when they were alive. Interesting though, there have been very closely related horses including full brothers and sisters to this horse that never had the disease. It has been linked ONLY to Impressive. It is a gene mutation.

If it ain't there, it ain't there.....

__________________
"The only place that success comes before work is in the Dictionary"

Oakridge Treeing Walkers and Newlin Quarter Horses
www.oakridgecoonhounds.com

Posted by Justin Smith on 01-31-2006 03:35 AM:

Rip , I heard that boy and girls are the same in the womb up until a certain point which is quite a ways into pregnancy.

There are more to genetics than we'll ever know , but I've seen where some of those two and three year olds that have never seen an instrument will draw one and know it's name and can play the fire out of it at three years old ... that to me suggests that everything has more potential than we can see .

Posted by Darren Hollis on 01-31-2006 12:48 PM:

Seems to me

the only real way to see is to try it and cull very harshly.I would not be trying to sell any pups,but breed for myself only.thanks for the info guys and good luck in all your breeding endeavors.
Darren
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Posted by sheepster on 01-31-2006 12:52 PM:

I know one thing, my last post on here was about two pages and I aint about to read this novel you guys wrote on all this. Toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much reading for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL LOL LOL LOL

Posted by Darren Hollis on 01-31-2006 12:55 PM:

How did you do last night sheep?

I made 2 trees and seen one coon and 1 den tree.
Darren

Posted by sheepster on 01-31-2006 01:03 PM:

Made two trees and seen FIVE COONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by justpiddlin76 on 01-31-2006 03:35 PM:

inbreeding

Gold Nugget
Striker Bro/Sis
Blondie II
Snapper
Table Rock Mack
Fry's Rachel
TN Mtn. Butter Cup
Chief
Gold Nugget
Striker Bro/Sis
Blondie II
WI Goldie
Gold Nugget
TN Mtn. Goldie
TN Mtn. Doe
Hurry Up Doodles
Yellow Bob(bro to Gold Nugget)
Skeeter
Chiggar
Gilbert
Gold Nugget
WI Jenny Bro/Sis
Blondie II
Daisy
Yellow Bob(Bro to Gold Nugget
Skeeter
Chiggar
Maggie
Gold Nugget
WI Jenny Bro/Sis
Blondie II

Right here is my gyps ped. She is a game catchin freak of nature. All 3 of her sisters are also game catchin freaks. None of them were born with any faults that I can think of mentally or physically. Robert Kemmer found dogs that could take the inbreeding and produce top notch game catchers. I know that genetic faults can show up in inbred dogs, but they can also show up in outcrosses and at this time I am still not sure they don't show up just as often in total outcrosses. I bred a Walker male to a Kemmer gyp one time and pretty much got a good litter of good acting dogs. Most were healthy. One was sickly in a bad way. One was virtually retarded actin. My gyp that made the cut is a freak of nature, but never made a tree dog, but she will catch a coyote in no time flat. Ya never know gentlemen, but if ya look at my gyps ped you will see that linebreedin and inbreedin will work if your dedicated to it. Robert told me that ya not only have to cull the junk, but also what produced the junk so go figure.

Dan Edwards

Well, that didn't work for a darn did it. I spent 20 dog gone minutes tryin to make that nice for ya'll and look what ended up happening. Anyhow, please take the time to look it over so you can see that this female is intensely inbred and she is 100 percent in just about every category that a man would want. She is civil at home at all times. She goes huntin at a furious pace and strikes quickly. She runs a track as fast as a dog that a man has seen. She is a sit down stay put tree dog that does not fight at the tree nor causes any. She can kill a coon in a matter of seconds and she has killed 2 yotes by herself and 1 fox that she caught before I could stop her. The coolest thing about her though is that she dispatches all opposums in the woods, but never has treed one. I have also seen her kill quite a few skunks and never get sprayed. I would say she is 50 pounds of destruction on varmints.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 01-31-2006 05:52 PM:

Whew!!!!! I am busy working and in between work it took me all morning to read everything. I don't think I can add any more Rip than what has already been said. I just hope Rob hasn't violated any copy rights.lol

It is a shame, but the topic of inbreeding and linebreeding is too often an emotional one. Many people can not get past the emotional aspect and to look at it objectively.

Fact is it isn't for everyone and that is fine.

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Posted by Darren Hollis on 01-31-2006 05:57 PM:

Larry I agree

Shoot man everything on this board gets personal before it is over.I think we are all coonhunters and strive to protect and love our sport,so we should be able to have civil discussions without slandering or bashing.JMO. I am thinking serious about trying it,because I would keep the pups close to me and see what they would do.Some very good reproducers have came out of close breedings.
Darren

Posted by josh on 01-31-2006 06:03 PM:

Darren,

What vitamins, ect. are you giving your old dog to help with his fertility?

Posted by Darren Hollis on 01-31-2006 06:27 PM:

Canine Red Cell

Josh I am giving him Canine Red Cell it is available at most hunting and feed stores.Also I have some B-vitamins that I am giving as well as regular exercise.The vet also has checked him for any kinds of infections as they lead to lower sperm count.I have a friend that has experience with the Red Cell and got a litter of pups from his male that had been sterile for 3 yrs.These dogs were not completely sterile but had very low sperm count.I have had him on the red cell and also Calf Milk Replacer over his food for the past several months to increase protein.The protein in the calf milk is easily absorbed.He is an aggressive breeder so that poses no problem.I have heard of Males that would not try to breed the female and have been given Viagra for men and this has made them more aggresive in the breeding pen.Hope this helps, I hope to get at least 1 more pup out of the ol Man.
Darren

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