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-- Htx Titles Should Have To Come First (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=491976)

Re: Re: Re: Htx Titles Should Have To Come First

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Originally posted by starplott
As I am sure you, of all people lol, have heard me before; thish is not a new idea. In other breeds/countries, dogs must prove themselves worthy before being allowed to be bred. Certain breed associations require a working dog to have no disqualifying faults, have cleared all health tests for the breed, and pass working aptitude tests BEFORE allowing to be bred. It goes both ways.

Not only would that stop people from breeding dogs for show with no hunt drive, it would prevent the breeding/titling of working dogs that are not good representations of the breed standards and those with genetic disorders common in the breed.

That would require about $500+ spent in preventative health tests, a breed judge to evaluate the dog before it would be allowed into competition of working nature (this case nite hunts, water races, field trials) and the dog would have to prove working ability before being allowed to show; with all three having to be passed in order to breed.

There's no more value in a breed of a dog that has what it takes to work that has a disqualifying fault structure wise than a dog of proper structure with lack of work ability! They go hand in hand to make and distinguish the breed. Breed standards are in place to do two things. Set characteristics that separate the breed from all others and to lay down structural and temp. characteristics needed to be able to properly perform in the function the breed was created. This case would be to hunt coon.

As a breeder, I am all for setting the bar high in a breeding program. I do not have a problem with any requirements to only breed proven healthy, show quality, and working quality dogs and not breeding what does not depict the TOTAL dog.

BUT, it has to be ALL inclusive! Not just get rid of show dogs that don't hunt! They are no less a hazard to a breed than a dog that has a bad bite, wasted movement, under/oversized, improper color, or is a carrier of genetic defects.

If you can't go all the way to preserve the breed in its entirety....then it is left to individual breeders as to how the breed will be preserved or changed.

Any less than equal consideration to breed type, working ability, health, and structure in a breeding program is detrimental to a breed just as equally.

One sided requirements just promotes a breeder and not a breed.

Yes, there should be less titled show dogs if required to demonstrate hunting ability. But there'd be a big decrease in working titled dogs if they made it equally important to make sure they met breed standard and were free of debilitating genetic defects. Breeding would be greatly reduced if only healthy and true to breed standard in its entirety were allowed to be bred.

Neither side of this topic is more right or more wrong. It is just personal preference unless it is all inclusive. One of the freedoms enjoyed in this country to have a personal preference and breed to meet personal preference rather than being required to breed to the integrity to the entire breed standard requirements. It also makes it to where anybody can participate in the venue of their choice at any income level. You would not be seeing mixed bred, $200-$400 pups, or have the number of pups available if such requirements to breed were to be based on health, working ability, and meeting the breed standard in its entirety.Coonhound pups would quickly rise to $900+ level with other breeds where breeders cater to the total dog in their breeding programs.

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Re: Hilarious!

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Originally posted by Tully
I hunt my dogs solo 80% of the time. They tree "REAL WILD COONS" (Whatever that means), by themselves anyway. Who do you think you are to try to make someone PAY to pleasure hunt???

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This whole post has given me a perspective to think on. If HTX is like paying somebody to pleasure hunt, then I need to pay somebody to comp hunt. Yes that is correct. I Hunt two trained dogs I rely on and trust plus two trained dogs that just started treeing on their own last fall. No need not to trust them but my habit is a dog is finished when it doesn't keep getting better everytime out but these two do. I hunt with them two young dogs that are running like champs but not treeing yet and one pup that goes out and comes back. My point being, I pack hunt. Now, I could say that I have my own entire cast everytime I go so I know I am going to win. How can I lose out of sevendogs trotting around and all be mine?
I would pay a judge to come keep up with the dangum scores so he could tell me which dog I had was the winner.
I can remember which one struck first usually, and I know which one treed first. That's about it. Then another race and i already forgot the other race.
What gets me is when they get discombobulated and take separate tracks and end up with a coon over here and another over yonder and two dogs treeing back closer to the truck. Split treeing sucks to me and I would minus the ones still running when one gets treed in a heartbeat . Before that I would minus the ones that heard thev other dog strike and took their own strike. So I need somebody to pay that knows the rules to come and score it down to see If I got a dog out of the bunch or not LOL.

And take several nights. I don't know which dog I have is the best. I keep notes when I get home about what I can remem ber who stuck and treed and how many coons killed. The season is now over and I have gone back through my notes and i can't say out of four dogs which one is the best.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Htx Titles Should Have To Come First

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Originally posted by Harry Plotter
my goodness as much as you write you must have a big ol brain or be a woman. you sound too smart to coonhunt. i couldn't even read it all. you lost me when you started talking about other countries and blah blah blah. i bet you are one of them foo foo breeders. cause i be you don't coonhunt. maybe show.

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as small as some of the local hunts are now and will be this summer. gas is gonna go up up up. you pry could get two whole casts to yourself. a three dog and a four dog. get a buddy to call one cast and you do the other. that way you would get two wins. most likely a first and a second place. do that three times and you would have a bonafide nite champion. maybe even two of them. costs a little more. but folks like ntch better than htx. then you could sell one for top dollar. heck if we was to cohoots with each other we could make all our dogs ntchs real quick. naw would be cheaper to make them all htxs. so you want to be my paid witness.

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Originally posted by Harry Plotter
as small as some of the local hunts are now and will be this summer. gas is gonna go up up up. you pry could get two whole casts to yourself. a three dog and a four dog. get a buddy to call one cast and you do the other. that way you would get two wins. most likely a first and a second place. do that three times and you would have a bonafide nite champion. maybe even two of them. costs a little more. but folks like ntch better than htx. then you could sell one for top dollar. heck if we was to cohoots with each other we could make all our dogs ntchs real quick. naw would be cheaper to make them all htxs. so you want to be my paid witness.

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if it aint its mighty close.lol

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Originally posted by Harry Plotter
as small as some of the local hunts are now and will be this summer. gas is gonna go up up up. you pry could get two whole casts to yourself. a three dog and a four dog. get a buddy to call one cast and you do the other. that way you would get two wins. most likely a first and a second place. do that three times and you would have a bonafide nite champion. maybe even two of them. costs a little more. but folks like ntch better than htx. then you could sell one for top dollar. heck if we was to cohoots with each other we could make all our dogs ntchs real quick. naw would be cheaper to make them all htxs. so you want to be my paid witness.

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North Country Plotts

I don't see the need to require a certain title in order to compete with your dog in different events. If you're afraid of losing, for any reason, then competition events are not for you.
If you choose to earn every title known to man on your dog, then good for you! But remember, some people, for various reasons (time restraints, health, etc.), choose not to compete with their dogs in certain events.

Are we going to need a Water Race title on a dog to make sure they know how to swim across a creek?

A Field Trial title to make sure the dog can run fast enough to keep up with the others?

A Show title to make sure the dog meets breed standard?

Laura Bell

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<COONHOUND BLOODLINES MAGAZINE WRITER>
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Originally posted by l.lyle
That % question would be a good one for Allen or Todd. In the program, how many dogs have been entered and how many hold an HTX title? OR; how many total entries and how many got a pass? Or both! I bet fewer dogs make it Bam, Bam, Bam, in three tries than 5 or 6 tries.

That's another thing an HTX title does not tell you but then again Nt Ch does not tell you if a dog was entered in 3 or 23 hunts either. LOL

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__________________
GREG WASKOM
812 583 3753

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Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Not even close i have judged several hunt test probably 70% passed the other 30% never will be coondogs. But just because they pass a hunt test does not make them a comp. dog or a coon dog. In a hunt test a dog can beat a track to death for 59 minutes get treed. Tree for 5 minutes and it gets a pass. Or stand around you in and out to where it won't get scratched for lack of hunt then get treed at the 58 minute mark and pass.

Now you tell me if a dog like this gets a HTX title how good is that for any breed to use as a Stud dog. lacks track speed or drive. wouldn't even make a good pleasure dog.

Now you throw this dog in a cast of his peers he don't stand a chance the others will make 2-3 trees while this one is killing a track. The name of the game is to tree coons not track coons.

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GREG WASKOM
812 583 3753

if a dog cant prove he can tree a coon alone first , why should he get to compete against others. if all dogs had the first level of htx
before going to comp hunts that would aleast do away with alot of dogs that shouldnt be there, and make the competition harder.
just think if every dog in a cast could run and tree a coon and stay treed, how much better the hunts would be.

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GREG WASKOM
812 583 3753

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Originally posted by grwaskom
if a dog cant prove he can tree a coon alone first , why should he get to compete against others. if all dogs had the first level of htx
before going to comp hunts that would aleast do away with alot of dogs that shouldnt be there, and make the competition harder.
just think if every dog in a cast could run and tree a coon and stay treed, how much better the hunts would be.

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__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

todd kellam
UKC Moderator

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 4233


As long as we keep the HTX certification meaningful, it will have a value in today's world of coonhounds. A pass rate of 33% tells me it's being done honestly. I would not be embarrassed to fail one as some factors are beyond you or your dog's control. It doesn't necessarily mean the dog is faulty, just that it didn't pass that night. Who hasn't had a bad night hunting?

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GREG WASKOM
812 583 3753

I don't get it.
What are you guys afraid of?
I would think that if all these dogs couldn't tree a coon , that it would be an easy win for you.
How many people really breed to a GrNt that got his title only hunting local hunts? I'll tell ya ...... only the guys who hunt against him and know what kind of dog he is !
Then , only when folks find out he's a reproducer , will out-of-town folks come to breed to him.
99% of the guys who have a female go breed to a dog that has won some big hunts , not the local GrNtCh.

Like I said before , the only guys who worry about how a dog got what titles are the guys who are too lazy to go hunt with the dog themselves !

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

jim you are mighty defensive. i just say with all the titles going around by different methods of winning. it would be nice to atleast know the dog could tree a coon by his self. what is wronge with that. if your dog is a legit ch why would you be against showing it.
it would be another step in weeding out alot of the dogs people are on here daily, complaining about winning hunts. if they couldnt pass 3 htx hunts they wouldnt be in nt hunts. making for better nt hunts.

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GREG WASKOM
812 583 3753

To me an HTX title should mean a hound can tree a coon. It doesn't mean the dog isn't an alligator, the dog is a coondog, an average pleasure dog or doesn't run and tree junk. I hunted in one and didn't pass. The dog I was hunting went through two sections and never struck. The same hound treed 13 singles alone one night without a mistake. A requirement to be HTX before entered into a nite hunt is not much different than requireing one to be Nt Ch before entering in an HTX. Might get rid of some of the mean HTX dogs.

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Home Of:
Gr Nt Ch, Ch Natural Smokey River Irene a coondog (Mailes Bob X Nt Ch Utchman Blue Two)
Gr Nt Ch Natural Smokey River Flo UKC Top 20 placing 15th UKC World 2011, top 100 2014 (Rebel x Mailes Lil)


The Hounds I Enjoyed Hunting:
Dual Gr Natural Smokey River Rebel, A buddy of mine
Gr. Nt Natural Blue Echo ( Gr Nt Quail Ck Jimmy X Nt Ch Natural Blue Bell)
Gr Nt Smokey River Chief's Joe (JBS Chief X Gr Nt Jeans Ruby)
Gr. Nt. Ch. Natural Smokey River Lucy (Chief's Joe X Muggins)
And Many More

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Originally posted by grwaskom
about as much good as that deer chasin, me tooing, mean nt grnt ch does. at least with the htx you know the dog has to tree a coon alone. stay treed, have the coon with no more than 2 faults.
and do it 3 times under 3 different judges to get lvl 1 htx

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__________________
MERLE COBLENTZ
937-313-2880 CELL
CALL TEXT VOXER
HOME OF GOODTIME KENNEL
WHERE WE SHOW ON THE HARDWOOD

If they were to change it. It should be after they have the ntch degree.

__________________
Michael Ghorley

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Originally posted by goodtimekennel
REALY ???? SEEM S LIKE YOU DONT UNDERSTAND A FEW THINGS
#1 ALL DOGS HAVE BAD NIGHTS
#2 JUST BECAUSE A DOG CAN TREE A COON DOESNT REALY MAKE IT A COON DOG OR SOME THING YOU WOULD BREED
#3 IF YOU THINK ALL THESE COMP DOGS CANT TREE COON THEN YOUR KENNEL SHOULD BE FULL OF GRNT CH

HTX SIMPLY MEANS THE DOG TREED A COON AND STAYED TREED FOR 5 MIN WITHOUT LEAVING BIG DEAL IF YOU LIKE HTX THEN HUNT THEM HECK I HTX HUNT EVERY TIME I TURN A DOG LOOSE BY ITSELF

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GREG WASKOM
812 583 3753

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Originally posted by GA DAWG
If they were to change it. It should be after they have the ntch degree.

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GREG WASKOM
812 583 3753

I dont believe for one second there are very many dogs entered in nite hunts that cant tree a coon on their own.

Everyone hates drawing the local "cast killer" but that dosent mean ol' killer wont pass a hunt test at some point.

Some of you take these titles/coonhunting way too seriously......

Why worry about the other guy's junk?

__________________
Bad decisions make good stories.

quote:

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Originally posted by grwaskom
did you read what i said

at least with the htx you know the dog has to tree a coon alone

the last hunt i was in i drew 2 walkers the they split and left the first drop. minus they treed together slick, then split and left.
1 was 5yrs old the other 2. both went out backwards in 2 drops.
yes i did win cast. it would have been better to win against better competion. the guy with the old dog said his was like that not just a bad night. with htx they wouldnt have been there

but you are the judge alone , thats not the same .

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__________________
MERLE COBLENTZ
937-313-2880 CELL
CALL TEXT VOXER
HOME OF GOODTIME KENNEL
WHERE WE SHOW ON THE HARDWOOD

Re: Re: Re: Re: Htx Titles Should Have To Come First

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Originally posted by Harry Plotter
my goodness as much as you write you must have a big ol brain or be a woman. you sound too smart to coonhunt. i couldn't even read it all. you lost me when you started talking about other countries and blah blah blah. i bet you are one of them foo foo breeders. cause i be you don't coonhunt. maybe show.

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It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Htx

I would not own a dog that would not hunt by himself and I will hunt my dogs against anyones dogs. But there seems to be so many me tooers that it is becoming ridiculous. I think HTX is a great thing but if you don't simple don't go.