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Posted by jackbob42 on 02-08-2012 10:42 PM:

I don't know why these dogs with all these inheritable problems are being brought up as "best to best" crosses.
I guess maybe our definitions of "best to best" are different.
I better just leave it at that.

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

Posted by starplott on 02-08-2012 11:38 PM:

Because best to best means different things to different people. To a lot of people best to best is two dogs w hunting ability w/o any consideration to conformation, longevity, and health.

Let me ask you a few ?

Do you xray the hips/elbows of your breeding stock and submit them to OFA? How about CERF to make sure they have no genetic eye issues? Do you have theory thyroids tested and a cardio? Test for DM, PRA, etc?

Do you feel totally comfortable backing up your pups with a written guarantee that your pups are free from any and all genetic defects up to 2 years of age and old enough to be ofa'd?

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by josh on 02-08-2012 11:47 PM:

Are we still talking about coonhounds?

__________________
Bad decisions make good stories.

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-09-2012 12:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
Because best to best means different things to different people. To a lot of people best to best is two dogs w hunting ability w/o any consideration to conformation, longevity, and health.

Let me ask you a few ?

Do you xray the hips/elbows of your breeding stock and submit them to OFA? How about CERF to make sure they have no genetic eye issues? Do you have theory thyroids tested and a cardio? Test for DM, PRA, etc?

Do you feel totally comfortable backing up your pups with a written guarantee that your pups are free from any and all genetic defects up to 2 years of age and old enough to be ofa'd?

Not realistic. The expense of that testing would make the cost of those pups to expensive for a coonhunter to afford. Add onto that the cost of testing each individual pup because having clear parents sure doesnt mean that they cant carry those genetic flaws as a recessive. I agree in a perfect world those things would sure be nice to know before you spend alot of hours training a dog BUT we dont live in a perfect world and coonhunters tend to run on the POOR side. LoL.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-09-2012 12:51 AM:

First of all the genetic transmission of CHD is not known. Secondly, CHD is a multigene trait. That means CHD has an unknown enviromental influence.

Add to that vets don't want to do x-rays until the dog is 2 years old. I know I had to beg a vet to do the x-rays for me.

How we deal with genetic faults should depend on the mode of transmission. If a trait is a simple recessive trait, it can actually be eliminated from your stock.

I would suggest that if this topic is important to you that you read Dr. Padgetts book on genetic diseases in dogs.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Posted by starplott on 02-09-2012 01:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
having clear parents sure doesnt mean that they cant carry those genetic flaws as a recessive. I agree in a perfect world those things would sure be nice to know before you spend alot of hours training a dog BUT we dont live in a perfect world and coonhunters tend to run on the POOR side. LoL.

Now somebody is getting my point.

If you aren't doing tests to make sure breeding stock is free of genetic defects and is not a carrier...there is no best to best breeding. It is simply putting two dogs together and trying to justify doing the right thing by pointing fingers at those doing the same single minded breeding at the other end of the spectrum. Of which neither is breeding for the total package.

I bred plotts for over a decade with guarantees on all the pups I produced. Though didn't pay the reg fees for health certs I did test and had paperwork & film on hand-while putting myself through college full time.

I don't care if it is coonhound or collie. You want to breed, you should assume the responsibility that comes with it. You drive a truck you pay insurance. To breed and not care much of what you are really breeding adds to problems in the breed later on as you really know jack about what you are breeding and breeding to.

The coonhound breeds will suffer the same fate as the other hunting and working breeds as long as people keep breeding coonhounds with the same mentality as what got the other breeds into trouble.

For those who seem to think this does not relate to coonhounds specifically...what is so different about breeding coonhounds than breeding bird dogs? What makes you think that coonhound breeds are exempt from poor breeding issues having negative impacts on the breeds?

I'd especially like to know such from those who are pointing fingers at show people for ruining the breeds?

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-09-2012 01:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
Now somebody is getting my point.

If you aren't doing tests to make sure breeding stock is free of genetic defects and is not a carrier...there is no best to best breeding. It is simply putting two dogs together and trying to justify doing the right thing by pointing fingers at those doing the same single minded breeding at the other end of the spectrum. Of which neither is breeding for the total package.

I bred plotts for over a decade with guarantees on all the pups I produced. Though didn't pay the reg fees for health certs I did test and had paperwork & film on hand-while putting myself through college full time.

I don't care if it is coonhound or collie. You want to breed, you should assume the responsibility that comes with it. You drive a truck you pay insurance. To breed and not care much of what you are really breeding adds to problems in the breed later on as you really know jack about what you are breeding and breeding to.

The coonhound breeds will suffer the same fate as the other hunting and working breeds as long as people keep breeding coonhounds with the same mentality as what got the other breeds into trouble.

For those who seem to think this does not relate to coonhounds specifically...what is so different about breeding coonhounds than breeding bird dogs? What makes you think that coonhound breeds are exempt from poor breeding issues having negative impacts on the breeds?

I'd especially like to know such from those who are pointing fingers at show people for ruining the breeds?

Guess i could be considered one of those finger pointers, i simply believe breeding hounds based on appearance as opposed to performance hurts any breed that was developed to do a job.

I feel breeding a proven family of hounds that has consistantly produced individuals that perform exceptionally well at the task they were bred for probably means that that line of dogs is not carrying genes that would prevent their offspring from doing the same. (kind of a trial by fire thing) much the same way that nature culls the individuals that lack the traits for survival. No hound is perfect physically or mentally but if they posess enough of the good stuff generation after generation chances are they are overall from good stock genetically. Not a perfect standard by anymeans but far superior in my opinion to breeding individuals simply based on appearance.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by jackbob42 on 02-09-2012 02:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott

Let me ask you a few ?

#1 - Do you xray the hips/elbows of your breeding stock and submit them to OFA? How about CERF to make sure they have no genetic eye issues? Do you have theory thyroids tested and a cardio? Test for DM, PRA, etc?

#2 - Do you feel totally comfortable backing up your pups with a written guarantee that your pups are free from any and all genetic defects up to 2 years of age and old enough to be ofa'd?

#1 - No I wouldn't.

#2 - WHAT? A 2 year guarantee against ALL genetic defects?
If you're going to give a guarantee against ALL genetic defects , it should be for life ! Which , if someone did bring a dog back at 8 or 10 , I would replace it was a true genetic defect.

After you telling about how most things don't show up till they're 5 or 6 years old , that 2 year guarantee ain't nothing but a selling point.

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

Posted by starplott on 02-09-2012 06:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
#1 - No I wouldn't.

#2 - WHAT? A 2 year guarantee against ALL genetic defects?
If you're going to give a guarantee against ALL genetic defects , it should be for life ! Which , if someone did bring a dog back at 8 or 10 , I would replace it was a true genetic defect.

After you telling about how most things don't show up till they're 5 or 6 years old , that 2 year guarantee ain't nothing but a selling point.

Good for you!

Yes, unless a genetic defect is caught and tested for signs won't always show up by the age of 2. However, there does have to be some motivation for buyer to test (especially if they plan on breeding) and some responsibility on the buyer to properly care for the dog.

Case in point...sire and dam carries PRA. A pup is blind at 3 due to PRA. Buyer fails to spend the $22-$40 to cerf the dog or do PRA test.

Another case in point...pup sold comes up lame at 6 because of hip/elbow dysplasia (or one of their offspring was diagnosed with stage 2 after dog had been bred) of which prelims at a year or OFA at 2 (min age to cert w OFA) would have shown.

It may seem like a selling point, but it really isn't. A good breeder doesn't want to keep breeding unhealthy dogs not genetically sound. It is looked at as motivation for buyers to test and check the health of their dog early on to ensure what the breeder produces is clear of genetic defects.

I surely wouldn't want the dog back at 6 after the parents have produced 3 or more litters and the dog had been bred several times. I want to know at a year to 2 years before parents are bred again to prevent further issues rather than blindly breeding. Then again my breeding stock is all tested before breeding, as are all the dogs in their pedigree back to the 80's.

The tests aren't that much if you have a vet who does a breeder's clinic or they have a clinic at an AKC show. 2 Eng pups are going in for their first cerfs next month, $22 each. A lot of AKC dog shows have cerf clinics for about $25. Hips/elbows here $79, plus another $22 if they have to sedate. AKC shows also have cardio and other tests avail.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by l.lyle on 02-09-2012 06:38 AM:

Genetic defect:?? Dog pup at 5 months heads to bucket other dogs struck on . Pup sits down and trees and has coon . Six months, backs and gets petted. Seven months , separated out to do it on his own and trees bucket coons and has meat. Goes though regular dog/pup slump till a year old. Goes and I mean GOEs and GOs till he gets a track he likes and handles and trees and has the meat by accident. Two years old , a continuation. Three years old, more continuation,. 4 years old and grabs tree! 1) when younger dogs take off and leave it in the dust. 2) when looses track and does not know what else to do. 3) Sees lights coming and grabs tree. 4) hears master call and does not want to bring his own self out because he has been trained that if he ever does he is due an asskicking, so just grabs tree . 5) figures the eight is gonna catch him because he has had the rules read to him all the while every night. He is intelligent and he is not dumb, he knows the rules alot better than me. LOL. Maybe I'm the one with the genetic defective brain.

Posted by starplott on 02-09-2012 07:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Guess i could be considered one of those finger pointers, i simply believe breeding hounds based on appearance as opposed to performance hurts any breed that was developed to do a job.

I feel breeding a proven family of hounds that has consistantly produced individuals that perform exceptionally well at the task they were bred for probably means that that line of dogs is not carrying genes that would prevent their offspring from doing the same. (kind of a trial by fire thing) much the same way that nature culls the individuals that lack the traits for survival. No hound is perfect physically or mentally but if they posess enough of the good stuff generation after generation chances are they are overall from good stock genetically. Not a perfect standard by anymeans but far superior in my opinion to breeding individuals simply based on appearance.

Nature doesn't cull inferior puppies as much as you think. If they did, we wouldn't have all the posts asking how to save a failing puppy or raise pups by bottle.

Nature tries! But again, a bitch can accept the fate of a pup not fit to survive. A lot of humans can't. It drives me nuts watching tv shows of breeders cutting cords, massaging pups, breaking the sac, even tube feeding the ones they don't think are strong enough to feed themselves at birth. Then, if they save a week pup they sell it (you got to be kidding me right?)

Same with these bitches that always have to have c sections to whelp. I've seen that trait passed on through a few generations. The crazier thing is people come to accept such as part of the breed or bloodline. I know quite a few GSD people that way. And people don't think twice about shelling out $2000 for one of their pups. God forbid a bitch whelp on her own.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-09-2012 12:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
Nature doesn't cull inferior puppies as much as you think. If they did, we wouldn't have all the posts asking how to save a failing puppy or raise pups by bottle.

Nature tries! But again, a bitch can accept the fate of a pup not fit to survive. A lot of humans can't. It drives me nuts watching tv shows of breeders cutting cords, massaging pups, breaking the sac, even tube feeding the ones they don't think are strong enough to feed themselves at birth. Then, if they save a week pup they sell it (you got to be kidding me right?)

Same with these bitches that always have to have c sections to whelp. I've seen that trait passed on through a few generations. The crazier thing is people come to accept such as part of the breed or bloodline. I know quite a few GSD people that way. And people don't think twice about shelling out $2000 for one of their pups. God forbid a bitch whelp on her own.

I disagree... Nature culls ruthlessly, its human intervention that screws up the process, and breeding to a standard is often the cause of the genetic issues that plague many breeds Look at the english bulldog as an example... breeding to the standard has created a breed that cant naturally even reproduce, cant give birth, cant hardly breath and good hips in the breed are nonexistant. this is an extreme example but hound breeders do the same thing to a lesser extent when they create a standard for type ,color, size and coat without regard to the effect on ability.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by jackbob42 on 02-09-2012 02:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
Nature doesn't cull inferior puppies as much as you think. If they did, we wouldn't have all the posts asking how to save a failing puppy or raise pups by bottle.

Try hard to remember this..........
When we talk about mother nature breeding and culling , we are talking about WILD CANINES WITHOUT HUMAN INTERVENTION.

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

Posted by RRILEY on 02-09-2012 03:09 PM:

Starplott..... Wow, your a legend in your own mind! So I guess when the founding hunters and breeders of our dogs today were breeding these dogs to get them to where they are today they loaded them up in their wagons or tied them to their mules and ran into town to get them checked for everything under the sun. Get real, they bred coon dog to coon dog generation after generation to get a consistent type of dog. The looks of these dogs were developed through that selective " ability " breeding. Also according to your theory of a old dog holding up with the young ones, I guess we all as humans should be just as fast, athletic, and healthy at 50 as we were at 20. Get real.

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 02-09-2012 03:37 PM:

Just keeps getting.....

Better !!!!

Starplott is making sense here.

I don't necessarily agree about vet testing everything though.

Guys and Gals, no matter what you want to believe, these old crap eaters didn't get to where they are now without dedicated breeders using hard core selection and culling techniques.

When the bluetick breed seperated from the english, all the bluetick breeders of the time, made a sworn oath to not ship a puppy until it was three months old. Reason was so they could make sure it was going to fit the breed standard.

Ability?? Doesnt do a dam bit of good if the gyp can't milk or won't take care of her pups.

Ability?? Means nothing if the sire or dam can't reproduce their likeness.

Ability?? The guy wanting to breed a gyp ain't gonna forget about a shaggy haired, glass eyed duck footed "registered hound"no matter how good he looked in the woods.

I for one want the hard core bench show people to stick it out, cause we'll have something to breed back into after our ability only hounds start to get problems.

I know some serious foxhunters who have used show blood to get athleticism and vigor back in their ability only lines.

I also believe if you let off colors , bad feet and other serious defects in your breed slip past the culling block... You have no business breeding animals, let alone performance animals.

Posted by dual walkers on 02-09-2012 04:40 PM:

makening sense

joseph mcdonald,, starrplott,, your telling it right,, some of these on here just want to arguee. about what they know nothing about.. we as respected breeders try our best to reproduce the best young dogs we can health wise.. some people just breed to make a dollar off there pups.. they dont care what that dog does as far as hunting,, looks and abulity to hunt when its grown,, all they look at is what they make off there pups.. thats why theres so many dog jockeys makening money off what these guys produced for them.. that a sad deal for us that try our hardest to better our breeds. they knock everthing we do in the head.. by saleing these worthless pups.. that half the time wont ever look up a tree ,, little lone run a honest coon track.. the money is the only reason some people breed to certian stud dogs.. DONT MEAN TOO STEP ON ANYONES TOES THATS JUST THE WAY IT IS.. when i buy a young pup .. i ocasionaly do buy one raise the most of mine.. but i ask for referances on the female of her off spring thats older. want to know and see if there healthy and in abulity . have correct comfermation.. to hunt for a long time.. then look at the stud dog and see if hes throwing the same ,, we all need to check and see these things..

__________________
CANYON CREEK KENNEL owner Steve Randolph, [home of top hunting and show treeing walker coon-hounds] THE PROUD HOME OF 2007 A.C.H.A. WORLD SHOW CHAMPION /UKC & AKC OPPOSITE SEX WORLD SHOW CHAMPION. 2006 BEST IN SHOW WINNER AT UKC, PREMIER. 2010 NATIONAL GRAND CHAMPION WALKER. 2010 OVERALL BROOD FEMALE WINNER.. AT AUTUMN OAKS.. [CCH.GRCH.HILLTOP LITTLE TAMMY]

Posted by jackbob42 on 02-09-2012 05:05 PM:

Re: makening sense

quote:
Originally posted by dual walkers
..... some people just breed to make a dollar off there pups.. they dont care what that dog does as far as hunting,, looks and abulity to hunt when its grown......

Sounds like you're describing a show dog breeder.
Name just one "REAL" breeder that doesn't care about their dogs hunting ability?
I'm not talking about someone who just throws 2 dogs together. I'm talking about the likes of Joe House , Dave Dean , Larry Wilcox , Frank Giddings , etc.
Name one !

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

Posted by josh on 02-09-2012 05:06 PM:

I dont read most posts that require scrolling, so I have not read all the posts here.

But what I have read seems like picking chit with the chickens...

Dual dogs are great....I doubt anyone would argue that.

As long as the "dual" is proportionate...

A GRCH only dog is NOT dual.

A dog that makes GRCH at 8 months then GRNT at 12 years is NOT dual.

I dont care what others want to do, but dont thy to blow smoke up my chimney with the idea that all your GRCH dogs are top cooners, or could be if you wanted to enter hunts.

__________________
Bad decisions make good stories.

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 02-09-2012 05:51 PM:

Anyone that doesn't read posts that you have too scroll, i.e (long posts) is probably not the detail oriented type of person that is looking to better a line or breed of hound. Just my humble opinion.

Also if I gr.ch a 8 month and sell it too a pleasure hunter thats kids decide to put it in some hunts when it's ten years old and they make it a Gr.Nt.Ch. YES it is a Dual Gr.ch.

Some people on here don't understand that alot of folks, simply don't enjoy competitive hunting.

Some people posting on here, will most undoubtedly screw up a line of hounds and leave the mess for some other dedicated breeder to fix.

( If any of this offended you, better step back and take a long hard look in the mirror. LOL)

LOL, after a post makes everything better....doesn't it??

Posted by jabrown on 02-09-2012 06:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joseph mcdonald

LOL, after a post makes everything better....doesn't it??

Affirmative. Or you can say "bless their heart" right you slam them and that makes it all better also.

Continue on.

__________________
As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

Josh Brown
The Barber Shop
Cuba, MO
573-205-1391

Posted by toe cutter on 02-09-2012 06:27 PM:

read the first post, not just what the last guy posted.

ok with all these posts considered, what about the original ?
why are we breeding dogs with titles to dog with titles.
titles are not traits.
if you breed only by titles then you dont know what the pups are gonna really be. its just a mixed bag of traits.
if you breed by using traits you have a idea of what your putting in the pups. the best to the best only works if both dogs had the same traits that made each the best.
if you want the papers to look good with all the titles thats fine. but select the titled dogs with the right traits ,show or nite hunt titles or what ever. but not just because it has the most titles.
i have seen people bitch about thier pup being chopped mouth on the track,it chews,its tight mouthed,its loose mouthed,small dog,big dog and after you tell them the one of the parents they bred was also chopped mouth on the track,loose mouthed,tight mouthed,big dog,little dog,slow straddle tracker,hot nose ,cold nose and on and on -ect.....
you relize they had no idea of any trait the dog had, they only saw it was a grand nite, a show ch or a dual grand with a bunch of other grands on there and others had pups "turning the crank" off that dog.
titles are dandy,but they are not traits and should not be used in a breeding program without considering traits too.
and traits are not just looks,the traits determine the abilty and style of hunting too.
i aint a pro breeder,i only hunt what i breed and breed the ones i like to hunt. maybe i missed the point here, is it abilty vs looks.cause it is possible to have both if you use traits as a guideline.

__________________
Randal Raper -
RED EAGLE MACK BRED WALKER DOGS

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 02-09-2012 06:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
I dont read most posts that require scrolling, so I have not read all the posts here.

But what I have read seems like picking chit with the chickens...

Dual dogs are great....I doubt anyone would argue that.

As long as the "dual" is proportionate...

A GRCH only dog is NOT dual.

A dog that makes GRCH at 8 months then GRNT at 12 years is NOT dual.

I dont care what others want to do, but dont thy to blow smoke up my chimney with the idea that all your GRCH dogs are top cooners, or could be if you wanted to enter hunts.

Please tell us how a dog can win a hunt its not entered in.

And do you believe Kurt Warner is just a grocery store worker ?

Posted by Dogcop on 02-09-2012 07:43 PM:

let all just agree that a dual purpose hound is the best and petition UKC to do away with show degrees and night hunt degees and only recoginize a dual champion and a dual Grand as the only degrees....would that make the most people happy??

__________________
RING TAIL KENNELS
Love them Walker dogs!!

Posted by Hey Preacher!!! on 02-09-2012 07:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogcop
let all just agree that a dual purpose hound is the best and petition UKC to do away with show degrees and night hunt degees and only recoginize a dual champion and a dual Grand as the only degrees....would taht make the most people happy??

OR ONLY PERMIT LITTERS TO BE REGISTERED FROM PARENTS THAT ARE BOTH DUAL GRAND?!!!

Posted by goodtimekennel on 02-09-2012 08:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogcop
let all just agree that a dual purpose hound is the best and petition UKC to do away with show degrees and night hunt degees and only recoginize a dual champion and a dual Grand as the only degrees....would that make the most people happy??

NO

I AM NOT GONNA SHOW A DOG TO MAKE IT SHCH , IF YOU WANT TO SHOW IM OK WITH THAT JUST DONT PUSH YOUR VEIWS OR BELIEFS ON ME,
COON DOGS WERE BRED TO HUNT ,

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