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-- Should silent dogs be scratched? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=456734)

its my understanding that coon hounds came from fox hounds . so at some time some fox hunter said the same thing you just did and somebody decided to take them up on it. Now we not only have coon hounds , we have several different kinds. black, blue, red, ticked spotted and all of them have different styles. glad some body went against the norm and now we have many awesome dogs out there. when i think of a coon dog I think of a dog used to hunt coon. Does your dog do that? If so I would call him a coon dog. and if he was good at it i would call him a good coon dog.

just got through reading breed history in my ukc rule book and yes it appears that each breed originated from fox hounds or boar hounds, so Im glad someone decided to start hunting a breed of dog that was originally bread to do something other than what they thought best. I bet those fox hound owners were raising cain about us coon hunters ruining their dogs breed.

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Originally posted by gfults
In the original post the man said he knew what the rules say, so I doubt he was looking for 200 people to repeat the rule. He said WHATS YOUR OPINION?? Mine is this. Tight and/or silent dogs tend to be more accurate because they dont give Mr. Coon a warning that they're on the way. They slip up on them and the coons either gotta climb or turn and fight! This is another opinion of mine: If I have to scratch a dog thats getting every last strike, if its not been shut out on strike, just to beat that dog, then I need to take a good look at the junk Im hunting. One more: If a dog that gets every last strike beats me treeing coons, then the dog deserves to win. How many of yall needs to win a cast so bad, that after getting hammered by a silent coon treeing dog, would actually have the nerve to question the dog needing to be scratched?? I like an open trailing dog as much as anybody. But to say a hound aint a hound because its real tight or silent is absurd!!!!!JMO

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Harley, are you serious???

One, we're not talking about creating a new type of hunting dog. We're talking about coonhounds.

Two, we're not talking about creating a new type of breed, but even if we were, all the coonhound breeds are supposed to open on track, just like their foxhound ancestors.

You're making this into somehting it's not. We're talking aboout coonhounds in a coonhound competition, not simply coon dogs.

If you have a collie that can tree coon, you can technically call it a "coon dog" but that doesn't mean that it earned the right to compete in a UKC sanctioned "coonhound" event. And it doesn't mean I want it anywhere near my kennel.

I choose to hunt walkers that look like walkers and hunt like walkers. That's my personal preference. They're not perfect, but they're absolutely coon hounds and coon dogs, and I don't want anyone messing with that. And on occasion, I like to breed to other people's stock, and I would prefer I didn't end up with someone's experiment in developing a new breed!

I'd be happy to hunt my dogs with or against any other coon dog, any night of the year. But I would prefer 2 feet of snow on the ground, so we can determine who has the real "coon dog".

David Schmidt

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
I wonder how many folks that say it's a matter of preference, hunt a breed, or if they cross-breed. If they hunt a particular breed, and register them, then it's not a matter of preference. To maintain the integrity of a breed we should all do our best to adhere to a breed standard.

If you don't care about the standard... fine that's your choice, but keep those dogs to yourself or like-minded people, and out of my pedigree.

If you don't like a dog that opens on track, and only care about winning and killing coon, then you don't like coon hounds, as that's what they are supposed to do! And if they don't, they deserve to be scratched from a "coonhound competition".

David Schmidt

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Quiet - Silent Dogs

Most silent trailers often bark a few times on track anyway and will catch up to a coon faster. That has been my experience caught 187 coon with him by himself. My dad Likes open mouth dogs had 2 for many years caught 238 with him and his half brother one year. We were hide hunters back in the day 70s' through 1984. I have came back to the sport and I will take a silent or quiet dog any day of the week as I will be able to tell what he is doing. Now I have a open mouth dog and he is a pleasure to hunt, a open mouth dog will tell on himself what he is doing. A good dogman and there are many out there knows what is going on with either type. To me and it is just my preferance, I hate a babbler because he lies so much often you get more blank trees or he is running junk game. Put him with a real coon dog and see what he does. The dog I have now has a open mouth fast, and a big locate, sometimes a little to tree happy with company but if hunted down a very nice dog, runs no junk. He is a product of competion type hound a little faster than I prefer. I prefer a semi silent dog, but a coon dog is a coon dog either way. The meat is where it is at gentlemen.

My Thoughts only, Jeff

I was kind of serious, the point i was making was not to come up with another breed of dog but to breed for what you like and let others breed for what they like. I understand that ukc has a standard for what a coon hound from each breed is supposed to look and act like. bust they are for the perfect dog of that breed in their opinion. Including, general appearance, characteristics, head: teeth eyes nose ears , neck, forquarters, body, hind quarters, feet, tail coat color size and weight. Does your walker meet every standard perfectly. I would think not< but even if they do should you not raise from a World night champion dog just because his ears are not the right length or his feet are not catlike. I was simply making the statement that in my opinion a coon hounds main purpose was to tree coons. I think this is the most important aspect of the dog and all the others secondary. If there is no coon in the tree then in my opinion the dog has failed to do what I would like him to do.

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Originally posted by Harley Smith
its my understanding that coon hounds came from fox hounds . so at some time some fox hunter said the same thing you just did and somebody decided to take them up on it. Now we not only have coon hounds , we have several different kinds. black, blue, red, ticked spotted and all of them have different styles. glad some body went against the norm and now we have many awesome dogs out there. when i think of a coon dog I think of a dog used to hunt coon. Does your dog do that? If so I would call him a coon dog. and if he was good at it i would call him a good coon dog.

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Bandit44 - I think you are missing the point. I raise UKC registered coon hounds, specifically Treeing Walkers, and yes I expect them to adhere the UKC breed standard. And if they start straying from that standard, in excess, then yes, I would question whether they deserve to be UKC registered. If my Walker females next litter popped out some Yorkies, I wouldn't expect anyone to accept them as UKC registered Walkers.

And so yes, if you enter a dog in a UKC sanctioned bench show, I fully expect them to be dinged or disqualified for any physical attributes that don't meet the standard. There are some attributes that are disqualifying and some that would hinder their ability to beat any competition.

And for the same reason, I expect those dogs entered into a UKC sanctioned competition hunt to be scratched for any disqualifying (scratching offenses) hunting attributes that don't meet the standard. Any of those other attributes that aren't disqualifying or scratching offenses, would again, simply hinder their ability to beat any other dogs.

I don't own one, but I suppose a mean dog could tree a heap of coon and it would certainly assist in them getting treed alone and winning a bunch of hunts, and they may be all "coon dog". Would you guys recommend we stop scratching them, based solely on their ability to tree coon? It sounds like you guys would argue that they have an advantage against the other coon hounds, that should be embraced.

David Schmidt

im a coonhunter not a coon chaser. i love my dogs more than everything but my kids and my smokin hot wife. ive been in very few competitions for this reason... junk dogs win too much and people cheat. the best coondogs in this country arent on the ukc website or in american cooner. they are owned by hillbillies and country boys that hunt because they love it. if its a registered coonhound it should be able to hunt with registered coonhounds. the coon up the tree is all that matters. theres always a dog that opens as soon as it hits the timber anyways. its lying but it doesnt get scratched....boy it sure sounds good though.

i am just stating my opinion and I change my mind alot, just passing time till 4 when i go home and then i will be back on here tomorrow. I think we should go by the rules of any event. I also believe we should not be opposed to change. some times change is good and sometimes its not. I wonder if my chiuaua could tree a coon? lol

im still completely lost on how a silent dog has any advantage other then being able to get to himself. if he gets treed before your completely open dog gets struck then he treed a coon before your dog even found a track to run. he deserves more points.

someone needs to let all the people hunting babblers know that theres a huge advantage to a silent dog. lol

if your walker gives birth to a yorki and both parents can both be proven to be a walker by dna then i say hunt that sucker in a hunt as long as he opens on track. lol

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Originally posted by Harley Smith
if your walker gives birth to a yorki and both parents can both be proven to be a walker by dna then i say hunt that sucker in a hunt as long as he opens on track. lol

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just a little north of you in Mcnairy county Tn.

I dont even own a dog that will stay on the tree but I love to hunt and go with good dogs that will. I bought a female off of insane cain and dam with rat on top and skuna river fred on bottom. shes just three months old but I look forward to entering her in the hunts some day. I hope she opens on track and trees hard . she sure is a pretty thang.

Harley, I like the way you think.

I am always for the underdog, if some of the folks saw a few I have had that would tree coon, people would laugh their tails off. Anybody vcan have the perfect dog by standards but can that dog tree coons. I have had them that could and have had lot of not quite up to standards that could also.

Seen a hell of a bunch that couldn't, bottom line we all know that all the talk is bull ^%$ and we know deep in our hearts if we have what it takes, otherwise you are just lying to yourself. Everybody likes a little different type, Me I would Take Drifter to my house in a minite a wonderful leopard hound from illinois. These people by Danville have some nice dogs. Myself I would hunt a purple potlicker from the devil if he would do it right and i could call him some kind of hound however stretched and bent the truth of his heritage could be.

I have never been accused of being normal or my dogs for most parts. My Grandad always said Jeff there are 3 types of dogs and they are in the following order for good 1. Coondog 2. Potlicker 3. **** -eater Oh and Number 4. Needs killing.

A little humor never hurt anybody, Enjoy the laugh, Jeff

what i think is funny about this whole thing is mr schmit used the words MY PEDIGREE in a post. lol, you may be surprised at some of the dogs in YOUR pedigree that may be still or tight mouth. and when you do find this out, go out your kennel clean up YOUR pedigree. This went from being a pretty good post to one that is silly and stupid. You can't use garmins on comp hunts so good luck proving a silent, still mouth tight mouth etc dog on the hunt. And if more people would leave the garmin in the truck instead of looking like a bunch of 10 yr olds playing nintendo you would do better in the hunts. If you can prove a hound is silent scratch him, if not take your beating and go home.

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My buddy has a redbone that is stone cold silent on track. Blows the top out of a tree, but will not say a word on track. You are probably thinking that at some point he has opened but let me tell you, this dog is 8 years old and I have hunted with him his whole life and he has never, ever, EVER opened on track. You cut him loose and the next you here from him he is treed. This dog could absolutely dominate comp hunts. But the rules say that if a dog won't open, he is to be scratched so we have never taken him to town. I love that dog to death but he does not meet the breed standards that a hound must carry, so it's not right to take him to hunts. Let me give an example that might make some sense to everybody: You might have a hound that is absolutley georgous in every way, a show dog delux. Fits every breed standard to a tee except that this dog has an underbite. The rules say that this one fault completely disqualifies a hound from being shown. Likewise, you might have a dog that is a coondog bar none, in every way, shape, and form, but that dog won't open on track. As far as breed standards go, that is a serious fault as a hound, idealy, is supposed to give mouth on track. We might not like it but, just like the underbite, it prevents this dog from participating because it DOES NOT meet the breed standard. If you have a silent hound you like that's great, but unfortunately that is TECHNICHALLY considered a fault, so just hunt it for pleasure.

well then, take all them purty dogs off the bench and make them show you a coon. Many of them my be silent. if they are strip their titles from the bench. they don't meet the standard.

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Originally posted by Harley Smith
I dont even own a dog that will stay on the tree but I love to hunt and go with good dogs that will. I bought a female off of insane cain and dam with rat on top and skuna river fred on bottom. shes just three months old but I look forward to entering her in the hunts some day. I hope she opens on track and trees hard . she sure is a pretty thang.

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Home of: " The Dirty Rat" 10th Place 2008 UKC World and M and L Kennels. Registered Treeing Walkers since 1977.

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Originally posted by HOBO
Just how many Curs have you actually hunted with? ALOT of them WILL OPEN ON TRACK.....

They still sound like a HOUSE DOG when they do.. BUT some of them WILL AND DO OPEN on track.

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What I think is funny, is when people start interpretting your posts, as they see fit, and then condemning you for it. Next time ask for clarification, before you go popping off.

Yes, I did say my pedigree, meaning my dog and any future breeding decisions I make, I take responsibilty for. I didn't own Clover or Lipper or virtually all the other dogs in the pedigree and so I don't accept responsibility for them, but I do own what I can affect. When I chose to register a dog and buy that pedigree, I accepted a certain level of responsibility... And yes, ownership. My pedigree is what I choose to breed, own, and perhaps provide to others. The fact that you may not know all the intimate details of every ancestor is exactly what I was getting at. Since you may not know first hand, you have to rely on someone else's judgement, and I can only hope others help me keep faults out of the gene pool.

If more people felt an acted that way, we would have less ill dogs, silent dogs, slick treeing idiots, etc. Because people would actually start breeding for the betterment of the breed that they say they care about.

David Schmidt

It ain't that I don't like an open trailing dog. But I have been around several good dogs and from just my own experience the bump bump get treed dogs. Are way more accurate and way way faster. Of course not all but most

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What i am saying is that most of our "betterment" breeding we have today is nothing but go yonder, grab a tree hounds. It seems like the dogs that were bred then are much better than now.

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