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-- Been cheated... really??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=347536)

Did you report all of the incidents that you spoke of Oak Ridge? What were the results of the findings after you reported the cheating?

I believe people get reputations and are known as cheaters or rule benders by many. Most are so called big name people because they are more relevant to the public. However, there are many around the local clubs that nobody wants to draw out with because it will be two hours of torture unless they win!

It is kind of funny that most of the cheaters I have heard about have been barred or suspended from one or more kennel clubs, but they are almost always allowed back in. Maybe if UKC would implement a one and done policy the cheating would subside immensely.

Also, if you don't know if you are a cheater or not, ask yourself this question, "Have you been involved in more than one questionable casts and you or your dog were included in the situation?" Kind of like a rough dog in a cast. You can't draw one or a cheater frequently unless it's because you are involved in the cast.

Lastly, if you are trying to circle slick trees all night long because your dog has missed, do you consider that cheating? I sure do and believe that this is the most prevalent cheating that goes on in any registery and is committed the most often. Some think it's good handling if they can bully a cast, or not take their due minus points.

If you have to know more than how to call your dog and find a coon to win a nite hunt, then somewhere along the line the game has gotten way off track because the dogs are the ones competing to be the best on any given night. Judging a dog is fairly easy. Judging a slick handler is the tricky part!

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The truth will set you free!

I am ok with you telling everyone that you got cheated I just think you should also fill-out the proper paper work so that the Kennel clubs have a record of who is pulling these stunts. If everyone did that then the same names would probably keep popping up.

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Originally posted by TheBiggestLiar
If you have to know more than how to call your dog and find a coon to win a nite hunt, then somewhere along the line the game has gotten way off track because the dogs are the ones competing to be the best on any given night. Judging a dog is fairly easy. Judging a slick handler is the tricky part!

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Never ask a man what kind of dog he has. If he has a hound he'll tell you, if he does not, you don't want to shame him by asking.

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Originally posted by cedarhillkennel
thats what im talkin about this is not a "team sport"
the handler should not part of the competition the dog does all the work all a handler is for is transportation of the hound to the hunt

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__________________
“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.”

thats exactly how i thought the first one i went to,oddly enough the first was the last for me
fool me once shame on you
fool me twice shame on me or somthing like that.
the first comp hunti went on was so crooked i never gave it a second thought.
your right its whole lot more fun with just a bunch of buddies out laughing and enjoying the night.

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cedar hill kennels ace's gunner
cedar hill kennels bo's tank
cedar hill kennels roxy
cedar hill kennels ace's chloe
Never ask a man what kind of dog he has. If he has a hound he'll tell you, if he does not, you don't want to shame him by asking.

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Originally posted by cedarhillkennel
so you would be ok with said "inexperienced" hunters dog whooping your dog but because he dont know the rules quite as good as you and you "technicaly" can find a rule to win and do so???????

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Oh come on Lakeland.... REALLY??????

I'll let the post starter stand up for himself in this, but for goodness sake...I'm a part of that very same TV show....and first and foremost, before TV Producer/director/editor/chief bottle washer...I AM A COONHUNTER. I've been hunting for 40 years and have been participating in competition hunts for well over 25 of those. I've competed in every registry that I know of, and some that don't exist any more. I've competed with coon hounds and beagles.... never owned a squirrel dog, so can't count myself in those ranks (yet! )

I've competed at the local, regional, and national level...and I can say that there were times when I went home feeling "cheated".... I can think of a time or two when there was outright "cheating" on the cast I was on...I brought it to the attention of the proper people, and it was dealt with. So I would say that there most certainly is some "cheating" that takes place. Unfortunatly, the competative nature of we humans seems to replace common sense and "honor" whenever we gather to compete....NASCAR, all manner of PRO BALL (steroid use is a form of cheating), you name it....it happens. Bottom line, there is a bad apple in every few bushel of apples....but it doesn't spoil the whole crop!

Mr Lakeland, I'm gonna ask you what YOU have done to stop, deter, or prevent the spread of the cheating that you say is so blatant? Do you have proof of your accusation, or is it just rumor? Have you picked up the phone and had a conversation with the sanctioning bodies of the clubs (the registries that sanction the hunts) about your concerns? Have you attended the club meetings, or walked along on a cast as a "spectator"?

Have you or anyone else who wants to come on here and cry foul done anything about the "cheating" that you claim is so blatant and so prevelant?

See, that is the problem....just as Dave mentioned. Many folks really don't understand the rules well enough to know if they were cheated or not. They think they know the rules, but when it is applied correctly, because they don't understand the proper application, the story they told is "they got cheated"... Case in point: A year or so ago I was on a cast that was treeing a LOT of coon. It got down to a two dog cast for the last half hour or so. My dog was getting beat by 25 points with about 15 minutes to go. The dog that was winning the cast opened 20 times or more and was not struck. When the handler struck the dog, he was minused (according to the rule for not striking on or before the third bark)... He lost the cast because of his mistake, but he will stand on any soap box available and swear to anyone that was listening that "HE GOT CHEATED".... I promise he did not get cheated...he lost because of handler error...and either won't admit it, or can't understand the rules system.

If you are on a cast and feel that your not getting a fair shot at the rules, a "buddy system" is a good example. You have every right to go back to the clubhouse and request a non-hunting judge. If you did not/have not done that....YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OUTCOME....not anyone else.

If a cast vote does not go your way...you are not getting cheated. You have the right to question the call, go the MOH and explain the rule that you think is being violated. IF the MOH does not rule in your favor...You have another right to appeal....the formal complaint process.

If you have not taken advantage of the protection provided to you against the MINORITY of participants in this sport that cheat....I guess you don't have the right to complain about cheating.

Now, I'm going to make some of you mad. I see a trend from some folks that make a habit of paying entry fees. They got a bad break, bad deal, or maybe they got outright "cheated" once a long time ago. They put up all of the defenses available in every cast and show up with a chip on their shoulder when they enter. They come looking for a fight. Grandad told me I would only find a fight when and where I went looking for it. I have a word for those that are always looking for a fight.... "troublemaker"

The bottom line is that before we go calling each other cheaters and airing our dirty laundry for everyone to read....follow the process, report the cheaters. Join the clubs and take a stand on cheating. I'm curious as to how many folks that swear that cheating is the norm, are actually club members that attend the club meetings. I'm curious about how many of you have ever made a motion to refuse someone's entry from your local club because they are "troublemakers" or are constantly a source of conflict in a cast? Competition hunting is not a socialist sport...the government or some organization is not going to come and "fix it" for us and make it all better. It's up to each and every one of us to take control of the sport we love, to police ourselves, and to ensure that first timers and old timers alike enjoy the sport and are afforded the opportunity to compete on a level playing field.

First and foremost.... DON'T FORGET TO BRING A COONDOG!

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Rip Acorn Creek Black Swamp Jester

In Honor of Jim Sizemore, " This ain't no benchshow!"

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Originally posted by treberta
That's where me and you have different oppinions.


Now, if it was a veteran handler no rules to be explained, as they should know them well. All i'm saying is to help explain the rules to these that are in-experienced, I know I would have had alot more cast wins if people hunting would have explained them to me.

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Rip Acorn Creek Black Swamp Jester

In Honor of Jim Sizemore, " This ain't no benchshow!"

you can know the rules foward and backwards and still get cheated.
at southern english days there was a participant in a cast that soake his boots in coon scent and the other three hounds in the hunt hung around smelling this guy like he was in heat his hound took off and was treed.
how do you prove this the cast members figured it out and some of them drew the same handler the second night the cast told him to change his boots as they knew what he did he changed his boots and all the dogs went hunting some of the hounds were the same as the night before.

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email minihorse@hotmail.com

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Originally posted by wayne f
you can know the rules foward and backwards and still get cheated.
at southern english days there was a participant in a cast that soake his boots in coon scent and the other three hounds in the hunt hung around smelling this guy like he was in heat his hound took off and was treed.
how do you prove this the cast members figured it out and some of them drew the same handler the second night the cast told him to change his boots as they knew what he did he changed his boots and all the dogs went hunting some of the hounds were the same as the night before.

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quote:

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Originally posted by wayne f
you can know the rules foward and backwards and still get cheated.
at southern english days there was a participant in a cast that soake his boots in coon scent and the other three hounds in the hunt hung around smelling this guy like he was in heat his hound took off and was treed.
how do you prove this the cast members figured it out and some of them drew the same handler the second night the cast told him to change his boots as they knew what he did he changed his boots and all the dogs went hunting some of the hounds were the same as the night before.

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__________________
“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.”

been cheated

been cheated or just plain f$$$ed had a three dog cast the judge the guide and myself i had first strike and first tree on the first turn out the judge and guide asked me to flip a coin and go to a t$t bar and i said lets let the dogs hunt it was raining,cold and snow on the ground i got scratched on the second drop went back to the club the moh overturned it from the second drop to the third iwas minused 550 points and scrached again neighter scratch was for agressive dog maybe they just wanted to gamble ,or just that hor$$y in western north carolina but i wasted my entry fee money to beat the club presidents dogs that were in my cast

I'm more likely to believe most cases of cheating are simply differences of opinion amongst handlers. As a handler, if you don't question it, you'll feel cheated one way or another. I've had my share of bad casts, but I can't think of a time that I've actually been outright cheated.
I've been beaten by a handler with the rule book before, instead of crying about it, I dug my heels in and started making a better effort to know and understand the rules we're supposed to be competing by. I try to use that knowledge to help others getting started so hopefully they'll take less lumps than I did. I'm not going to give a rookie a break because they don't know the rules, I'll give them they're minus but I'll also give them an explanation as to why so hopefully they learn from it. I'm far from perfect as a handler and judge, I'm not afraid to ask for others opinions or discuss a situation through so no one feels cheated.
Most of my bad casts are simply because situations arised and I didn't do the right thing but questioning the call for the sake of trying to keep the cast positive. I basically cheated myself more than anyone has ever cheated me.
The more I compete, the more I've learned that questioning something in the woods is a necessary part of competing. By questioning a call in the woods, you'll at least get the opinion of the judge and fellow handlers. You might not always like it. If you feel strongly that something is being done wrong, question it and take it to the club. Again, you'll get another opinion or two. If that ain't enough take the next step and file a complaint. Again, you'll get an opinion.
This doesn't mean you'll always be right, but when it all shakes out you'll have received an education one way or another.
I do feel I've been cheated by the "system" a time or two. Only once have I actually brought a question back to the club and it was during Zone Semi's. Field Rep got the call wrong and my World Hunt experience was over. All I got was a personal apology from Allen G. Did I feel cheated? You bet.
Again, I filed a complaint against a MOH officiating an event where he had his handler enter a dog he owned in the hunt. Both were aware this was a rules violation. One club member had even brought a dog for the handler to hunt, instead last minute he entered the MOH's dog. MOH had read the MOH checklist, casts were drawn and casts were dispursing from the grounds. I checked the card to verify the MOH hadn't transferred ownership of the dog and then approached the desk for a complaint form. Both the MOH and his handler lost they're temper and the clubhouse was in an uproar. MOH and I had words and I repeatedly asked for a complaint form. He denied me the form and tried to plead his ignorance that he had intended to be a HD. Not once had he mentioned serving as a HD to the club or anyone else prior to. I left the building before things got any further out of hand. I contacted UKC via email as soon as I got home following the hunt and followed up with them on Monday morning.
UKC investigated it and revoked the MOH's UKC license. Now 4 months later they've reinstated him for reasons I don't know. I'm hoping to follow up with Allen about it soon to at least get an explanation as to why they would reinstate the individual. Do I feel cheated? You bet I do. This MOH and his handler clearly violated a long standing UKC procedural policy and a complaint was filed. There were several witnesses and many of them would like to know why as well. I feel it sets a pretty bad example and brings the integrity of the process into question. How can we encourage handlers to question and file complaints if and when someone does, they take a complete 180 on they're position?
Does cheating happen in these events? You bet it does. Is it as prevalent as this message board portrays? Absolutely not. If it was, these crooked clubs would fold up and no one would be competing any more. Folks are still having fun at the majority of events attended or they wouldn't be going.

$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ THIS IS WHY IT WON'T BE STOPPED !


CHARLES PULLEN

__________________
GrNitech Rapidan River Ragin Rambo

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Originally posted by brogy
I'm more likely to believe most cases of cheating are simply differences of opinion amongst handlers. As a handler, if you don't question it, you'll feel cheated one way or another. I've had my share of bad casts, but I can't think of a time that I've actually been outright cheated.
I've been beaten by a handler with the rule book before, instead of crying about it, I dug my heels in and started making a better effort to know and understand the rules we're supposed to be competing by. I try to use that knowledge to help others getting started so hopefully they'll take less lumps than I did. I'm not going to give a rookie a break because they don't know the rules, I'll give them they're minus but I'll also give them an explanation as to why so hopefully they learn from it. I'm far from perfect as a handler and judge, I'm not afraid to ask for others opinions or discuss a situation through so no one feels cheated.
Most of my bad casts are simply because situations arised and I didn't do the right thing but questioning the call for the sake of trying to keep the cast positive. I basically cheated myself more than anyone has ever cheated me.
The more I compete, the more I've learned that questioning something in the woods is a necessary part of competing. By questioning a call in the woods, you'll at least get the opinion of the judge and fellow handlers. You might not always like it. If you feel strongly that something is being done wrong, question it and take it to the club. Again, you'll get another opinion or two. If that ain't enough take the next step and file a complaint. Again, you'll get an opinion.
This doesn't mean you'll always be right, but when it all shakes out you'll have received an education one way or another.
I do feel I've been cheated by the "system" a time or two. Only once have I actually brought a question back to the club and it was during Zone Semi's. Field Rep got the call wrong and my World Hunt experience was over. All I got was a personal apology from Allen G. Did I feel cheated? You bet.
Again, I filed a complaint against a MOH officiating an event where he had his handler enter a dog he owned in the hunt. Both were aware this was a rules violation. One club member had even brought a dog for the handler to hunt, instead last minute he entered the MOH's dog. MOH had read the MOH checklist, casts were drawn and casts were dispursing from the grounds. I checked the card to verify the MOH hadn't transferred ownership of the dog and then approached the desk for a complaint form. Both the MOH and his handler lost they're temper and the clubhouse was in an uproar. MOH and I had words and I repeatedly asked for a complaint form. He denied me the form and tried to plead his ignorance that he had intended to be a HD. Not once had he mentioned serving as a HD to the club or anyone else prior to. I left the building before things got any further out of hand. I contacted UKC via email as soon as I got home following the hunt and followed up with them on Monday morning.
UKC investigated it and revoked the MOH's UKC license. Now 4 months later they've reinstated him for reasons I don't know. I'm hoping to follow up with Allen about it soon to at least get an explanation as to why they would reinstate the individual. Do I feel cheated? You bet I do. This MOH and his handler clearly violated a long standing UKC procedural policy and a complaint was filed. There were several witnesses and many of them would like to know why as well. I feel it sets a pretty bad example and brings the integrity of the process into question. How can we encourage handlers to question and file complaints if and when someone does, they take a complete 180 on they're position?
Does cheating happen in these events? You bet it does. Is it as prevalent as this message board portrays? Absolutely not. If it was, these crooked clubs would fold up and no one would be competing any more. Folks are still having fun at the majority of events attended or they wouldn't be going.

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I have been "cheated" twice...Once in a PKC cast and once in a UKC cast. The UKC cast "cheater" was overthrown back at the clubhouse by the MOH.

I could have pushed the PKC "cheat", but for reasons I would rather not share, I decided to let it slip. But it wont happen again.

__________________

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Originally posted by joey bourne
If all this is true "not saying its not" I would insist someone in that front office to give me an answer as to why my complaint wasn't dealt with to the fullest punishment of the rules? Seems to me the man in charge of inforcement of the rules has no reason to break them pleading ingnorance.

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Those that hollar NO FOULS the loudest are usually the ones committing the most fouls.

I take pride in being honest and to the point with people. You can't think of a time someone cheated you? That's great I wish I could say the same. Could it be denial? Could it be the fact that you want no negativity being said about the sport? Could it be you are the one dishing out the screwings? Could it be that you just except the fact that you got hosed?

It's un-exceptable for people to drive hours getting to a hunt only to be gained up on by the fab 3.

It's un-exceptable for people to spend countless hours/sweat getting their dog ready for the weekend only to be screwed by a judge and MOH that are clueless.

I'm guessing if you hunt a packing style of dog you will run into fewer problems in UKC.

Like I siad I hae been on a great run the past couple of months, great guys and good dogs. That's what it's about.

However, I don't have to look back very far to remember 4 or 5 casts that were disasters, due to cheats/crooks.

Cheating is very simple to define, though there are several ways to cheat in a cast. You use the definition Joe and I will put it into perspective.

Cheating::: Trying to gain underserved points///Trying to take away someone elses deserved points.

im headed to ohio in a few minutes sure hope i dont draw the fab 3 or the guy that has the 4 wheeler sittin in the woods lmao

__________________
Jason Harper

You headed to the Ohio State hunt?

thats right you gonna be there

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Jason Harper

cheating

We all know every dog has good nights and bad ones too.but if you draw the same handlers at 3 out of 4 hunts at the same club,somethings just not right and most time their payed handlers and the hounds belong to same man.but you cant say anything cause there hired guns and their always right their dogs are also.[we all know how that is]I enjoy comp. hunting with a good cast. they all arent bad just a few bad apples.Best thing i have come up with is to let them called it their way then file complaint that night if its really cheating and get those bad apples out of the sport.Fellows i fought roosters for 20yrs i thought it was the crooked as you could get but seems like i keep running into the same crooks.BUT LETS LET THE HOUNDS FIGURE OUT WHICH IS THE BEST DOG NOT A SOME HOT HEADED HANDLER.

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{SWAMPY HOLLOW KENNELS }COLOR DONT MATTER ITS WHATS IN THE TREE.

I"ll add my $.02. ...The last 4 Cast/ hunts i have been on/in were not a problem at all. I only won 1 of them. My suggestion would be if most people answered truthfully everytime something comes up instead of trying to figure out what strike you have or what tree you have or if you really struck your dog or someone elses hound ,just be a grown up about it and answer honestly. I enjoy going to these hunts to see the dogs . The different hounds , the way they hunt and handle. Not to see a professional, want a be handler win with a dog he has never heard in the woods before. I can honestly say i have never really been out right cheated,,,I have stood my ground or made individuals show me there coon, if i can't find it for them. I have made them show me a hole in a tree ,Not a dark spot that looks like it might be a hole. I have pretty good ears and i like when the last 10 mins of the hunt and that pro is down a point or 2 and hears ol spot off in the distance.But i want to know which way and how far....LOL catch my drift... To me its all about the dogs
I give my trophy's back to our club and am glad to sponsor another coon club with my $20 entry and 50/50 raffle and hopefully some good cooking. and also if my dog is not performing for whatever reason i put her in the truck and lock her up and return to the cast... That saves alot of this B.S. of everyone saying when i left they only had 25 points. Make them earn the win boys or help that dog out that the other 2 guys are USING THE RULES AGAINST TO BEAT HIM... Hope it makes a little sense. Curt

Great POST-Velocity I wish I could draw more people who are like you say you are. Competition hunting would be alot more pleasure.

SMARTIN0022

THATS THE BEST THING,DONT LET THEM FEW PEOPLE RUIN IT FOR EVERYONE {STAND YOUR GROUND} IF YOUR CHEATED AN KNOW ITS REALLY CHEATING LET UKC TAKE CARE OF IT. ANOTH COMPLAINTS THEY WILL FINIALLY GET SOMETHING DONE ABOUT THEM.

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{SWAMPY HOLLOW KENNELS }COLOR DONT MATTER ITS WHATS IN THE TREE.

Let's take this to the highest level. It is not Nite Hunt cheating, in fact, I am not accusing anyone of cheating but I sure know it was not right.

I was showing at the World Championship Bench Show. I had a handler showing my dog, I was video taping the dog being shown. It was a Grand Champion English class. My dog was shown against a well known owner/handler's dog. The judge picked the well known person's dog over my dog. Then, in the next round, the same judge disqualified the other dog for exceeding the height limit. So, a dog with a disqualifying fault was picked over my dog. The rules clearly state any dog without a disqualifying fault wins over a dog with a disqualifying fault. The entire UKC staff saw what happened, Wayne Cavanaugh was standing about 30 feet from where I was taping the event. Todd Kellems was up on the stage. Other UKC officials were present.

Was I cheated? Well, the rules were clearly broken. Did I complain or fill out a complaint form? No, I just loaded my dog went home, and will never compete in a UKC World Championship Show again.
I do have the tape I made to refresh anyone's memory.

If you haven't seen clubs rig hunts, have 2 outright cheater's over rule you on a cast (2 vs 1), have people cheat on time keeing, have trees that shoul be minussed circled, well, the list goes on and on, then you are not paying attention or completely ignorant.

Do I think think cheating goes on every cast? Heck no. Do I think all clubs cheat? Definatly not. But, it does happen. Maybe more than it should.

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Dave Haugh

LAKELAND KENNELS
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English Coonhounds
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PKC Sq Ch Lakeland's Mini Mouse
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Ch SqCh Lakeland's Lucy
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SqCh Lakeland's Kate
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