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-- Breeding discussion (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=250333)

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Originally posted by Justin Smith

It takes many crosses and many years before a nick pops up and has the right stuff to be something that can be bred back into the breed and make a positive influence.

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
What folks also like to do is dramatize things or expound on the exceptions to make themselves look right ..

For every example of a crossbred hound that produced junk ... I can give you one from purebred stock to match it .

For every time your uncle or third cousin did something to support your argument ... my grandpappy did it and succeeded.

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Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
Mr. Smith, Im going to leave this subject alone . We've beat it to death! I will say this as a parting comment..... Guys like you and people who agree with your ideas will only be with a breed just long enough to screw it up for the serious breeders, then you'll move on to another breed and start all over again. Thats fine!! It just means that the serious guys will have to work harder just like always. Thank you for the discussion, wish you all the luck with your endeavors, and if you ever get to IL, look me up and we'll go tree some coon.

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You can't improve or get new traits by breeding stock that doesn't have it ... that's why you experiment.

I don't know why folks think that if they just keep breeding or breed more ... they'll get pups what have are an improvement upon the parents ??

It's a time tested method ... take your pure stock and cross it with something similiar that has a new trait you want to add .. when you find a nick that you like , you blend it back into your pure stock .

That nick could be within your breed ... or outside .

When breeding for performance though ... you have to rule out color , strain , breed and everything else but peformance and breed to the best you can find in the world .

There is room for everyone ... the dogs will prove who's right .

Yall don't need to get so hateful ... I love each and every one of you ...

I think everybody can have a theory and each theory can be right or wrong depending on how well the individual executes it... plus a lot of luck (good or bad) lol...

Don Little wrote some articles on breeding years ago that I found interesting.

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Originally posted by RandySexton
I'm doing this for me. Registration papers to me are not that important compared to having dogs produce what I like, coon treeing machines that are Black and Tan. YEAH BABY! That's what I want!

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__________________
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." Norman Thomas, (1884-1968)

I GET A KICK OUT OF YOU GUYS THINKING YOUR THE FIRST GUYS THATS EVER TRIED OR THOUGHT OF THIS. THEM OLD BOYS BACK IN THE DAY CROSSED EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO SEE WHAT WORKED. YOU CAN CROSS BREED ALL YOU WANT YOUR NOT GOING TO GET THAT SUPER MAN DOG THAT ANY DOG IN ANY BREED TODAY CAN'T BEAT AT ANY GIVEN TIME. THERE'S GOOD AND BAD IN ALL THE BREEDS AND IF YOU LOOK YOU CAN FIND TOP HOUNDS IN ANY BREED OUT THERE TODAY.

Thank you Darren. I was going to leave this alone ,but Brogy pissed me off.

Brogy: You say I didnt contribute any thought into the thread........Well sir I will ask you how long you have been with your chosen breed, and what accomplishments youve made other than buying pups and running breeders down? If you are a walker man than tell me me all about them please!! Look forward to your reply and your insight.

Brogy , you said every dominant walker stud dog was an outcross, would you please elaborate on this for us dumbn ole farm boys?

Brogy,...... Im just a dumb ole poor, broke farm boy with no education, can you please bring me outta the dark with your breed specific insight?

No, I said "almost" every dominant sire in the Walker breed was the product of an outcross. Rat Attack, Nailor, Whitey, are just a couple off the top of my head. I don't believe any of them are products of linebreeding. Rat (Sackett Jr x Harry x Nite Heat) Nailor (Tar Rattler x Lipper) Whitey (Clover x Lipper).

I don't know what my credentials have to do with anything. All I did is create a thread out of boredom to open up a discussion, get tired of reading the what's the best dogfood threads & etc.
For the record, I grew up following hounds of all varieties as my dad has been a hide hunter and started carrying me along when I was a kid. I got my first hound ( a Walker) when I was 13. The dogs I'm hunting today are of the same recipe. I took a hiatus from hounds in my late teens & early 20s but my dad continued to be very much involved. I have a couple lines I seem to prefer but we have owned Walkers from many different lines. Over the years we have had a variety of breeds at the end of our lead strap or eating our feed, We've had a handful of Plotts, a couple of English, a redbone, a cur, an Elkhound, and prior to me my dad fed all the other breeds at one time or another.
I like a dog that hunts the woods I intend to hunt, has enough nose and intelligence to work with the abilities it has naturally to produce coons under most any conditions, enough brains to handle (come in when called, no lead strap required), prefer them to be naturally straight or easily broke, honest and accurate, stay treed 'til we get there and in competition or with company I like mine to get the better part of the strike and tree pts. My opinion is none of that is too much to ask, yet it can be tough to find at times.
The dogs I'm hunting now suit me fairly well. They are far from perfect. None of them for sale but all could be bought.
I don't consider myself a "Walker man", it just happens to be the breed I'm having the most luck with.
The topic open for discussion was intended to be whether if tight family line breeding even among crossbreeds could reproduce consistently, and if not.. what are the reasons? I'm wondering why a breeder could take a linebred dog from one strain and outcross it on a dog from another strain (for example take a linebred Clover bitch crossed onto a linebred Dohoney's bred male, with no similar ancestors for 5-6 generations) and expect a successful breeding but if you were to take a linebred Walker cross it onto a linebred Cur and continue breeding amongst those families, why couldn't you find the same success?
Personal attacks on Randy Sexton's breeding or attacks on my opinions or credentials isn't really called for, because it is not the topic at hand.
I'm not arguing at all... I'm inquiring. Obviously some of you have some strong opinions... I'm just looking for some reasons why or some mildly educational feedback.

My examples might be less than ideal, but hopefully I expressed my intent.
I'm not talking about mass producing puppies for the open market (something that has been widely excepted among pure breeds) I'm talking about some good ole boy breeding dogs to suit himself, tapping into the resources that are readily available to him, yet not just breeding ol Spot to ol' Stubby, I mean actually researching to improve upon traits tapping into the same couple families of dogs without being limited by "breed standards".

I have read both of John Wicks books. I have never met the man and would like to. My point is he seems to know what he is talking about when it comes to coon dog's. I may be wrong but i think he is part responsible for the leopard hounds ive been hearing alot about. I am willing to bet he put alot of walker blood into the camo jug dog i believe was his name. if you look real close at some even on down the line from jug they have alot of similarites to a walker! I personally favor walkers but im not prejudice in any way towards any other breeds if it is an intelligent hound that has sense enough to get gone, work up a track, run it quick and stay treed and maybe even have a lil style like a walker lol just kiddin. I think the leopard hound comes from a cross breed that worked for someone way back and has had a little walker blood added not long ago to some bloodlines.

Brogy, see no one likes it when we get personal do they? Now to the discussion you talked about breeding clover gyps to boone males. Thats my point exactly, we have within every breed several different, and i mean different strains, that we can cross back and forth on to get desired traits. Mr Sexton has not been with his chosen breed long enough to my knowledge to pass any sort of judgement on them. I hold no personal grudge towards any of you, would just like you to see the view of serious breeders.

Andy, Mr. Wick bought Camo Jug and had no part in his breeding.

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Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
Andy, Mr. Wick bought Camo Jug and had no part in his breeding.

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Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
Brogy, see no one likes it when we get personal do they? Now to the discussion you talked about breeding clover gyps to boone males. Thats my point exactly, we have within every breed several different, and i mean different strains, that we can cross back and forth on to get desired traits. Mr Sexton has not been with his chosen breed long enough to my knowledge to pass any sort of judgement on them. I hold no personal grudge towards any of you, would just like you to see the view of serious breeders.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andy Edgar
[B]I have read both of John Wicks books. I have never met the man and would like to. My point is he seems to know what he is talking about when it comes to coon dog's. I may be wrong but i think he is part responsible for the leopard hounds ive been hearing alot about. I am willing to bet he put alot of walker blood into the camo jug dog i believe was his name. if you look real close at some even on down the line from jug they have alot of similarites to a walker!


A OLD GUY UP BY ME HUNTS LEOPARDS WHEN I WAS SELLING HIDS HE WAS SHOWING ME A PICTURE OF JUG. I DON'T REMEMBER IF HE OWNED HIM OR HIS LEOPARD BUDDY DID I THINK HE MIGHT OF COME FROM IL NOT SURE THOUGH I KNOW JOHN BOUGHT JUG THAT WEEK OR THE WEEK BEFORE FOR SOME BIG MONEY.