UKC Forums - Shoes Thrown at Our Pres. in Iraq

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-- Shoes Thrown at Our Pres. in Iraq (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=243848)

Posted by liberalcreek on 12-17-2008 12:36 PM:

Randy, Dont forget the 500,000 metric tons of yellowcake uranium and thousands of centrifuges used to make nukes we removed from iraq.

Odd how the Anti GW crowd easily forget and overlook the facts.

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Posted by trackdriver on 12-17-2008 12:51 PM:

Where is bin laden? Was he or is he in iraq.

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Posted by AnnieP on 12-17-2008 12:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by prater1
That is one of the biggest disgraces of our country, that people with big mouths and little honor and courage are allowed to speak freely and push your ideas and opinions on anyone that doesn't agree with you...

I do beg your pardon. The right to free speech is one of the greatest things about our country! It's one of the main things our country was founded on. Being able to disagree with the government without being thrown in jail is something that is unique to this country and is one of the main reasons people want to come here.

No matter what you say, you have the right to say it. I have the right to either listen or walk away. Or disagree and discuss it with you. And nobody is going to come arrest us for having that discussion.

Sometimes I think we take that right for granted. Please don't. It is precious and needs to be protected.

Annie

Posted by prater1 on 12-17-2008 01:03 PM:

Annie, I agree with you, freedom of speech is one of the greatest things we have. When freedom of speech is used to bash our government and our country then it is a disgrace...that is what I meant by that comment. The conversation was about wether or not bash the country and government was also bashing our troops fighting for our freedoms. Which if you ask our troops they will tell you it does bother them to know that they are fighting a war and it looks as though we don't appreciate what they are doing.

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The freedom of speech was not always free, use it wisely and thank a soldier!

Posted by AnnieP on 12-17-2008 01:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by trackdriver
Where is bin laden? Was he or is he in iraq.

Actually, Bush has admitted that Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until after we invaded.

Annie

Posted by AnnieP on 12-17-2008 01:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by prater1
When freedom of speech is used to bash our government and our country then it is a disgrace...that is what I meant by that comment.

Then perhaps, sir, you don't really understand the concept of free speech. No matter what you say, no matter how abhorrent to me your thoughts are, you have the right to speak your mind. I have the right to disagree and to voice that disagreement.

Neither of us is made to listen to each other but we do have the right to say what we think.

And no matter what I think of what you say, I will defend your right to say it.

As far as disagreeing with our government being a disgrace, I have to beg your pardon again. The founding fathers of this country set it up so that the people have the right to disagree with the government. And the right to change that government if we do disagree with the way it's being handled. That's what our elections are all about.

Blindly following what the government says is setting ourselves up for tyranny. As Thomas Jefferson said, "A little rebellion now and again is a good thing."

In my opinion, voices of dissent remind the sitting government that it must answer to the people who elected it.

Annie

Posted by prater1 on 12-17-2008 01:27 PM:

Annie, you are taking my message wrong, I agree with freedom of speech. I understand about our forefathers and elections, I just don't agree that disrespecting our President and our troops is the right thing to do in wartime. I understand that I can say and you can say as we see fit. This is just my opinions...Just to add, Terrorists were in Iraq before we invaded the country, they had been training there for years. I don't know that bin laden himself was there...but there was terrorist training going on. Many of Saddams elite squads were involved in the training camps and used many of the tactics on their own people.

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The freedom of speech was not always free, use it wisely and thank a soldier!

Posted by AnnieP on 12-17-2008 01:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by prater1
Annie, you are taking my message wrong, I agree with freedom of speech. I understand about our forefathers and elections, I just don't agree that disrespecting our President and our troops is the right thing to do in wartime. I understand that I can say and you can say as we see fit. This is just my opinions...

I have read every reply in this thread. Nowhere did I see anyone say anything bad about our troops. I'm old enough to remember the way our troops were treated on returning home from Viet Nam and I agree that it was disgraceful. The men and women of our Armed Forces did not and do not deserve the scorn that was heaped on them then. That should be reserved for the government that sent them into that arena.

And that's what I'm seeing now. Nowhere do I see anyone bashing the troops for having been sent and doing their duty. What I do see is people disagreeing with a president for having sent them.

The one thing I will say about our troops is that I hope they will act with honor. I've seen a lot said about how this arena is different from any other and the people they are facing don't "play by the rules". Neither did the Japanese during WWII and neither did the Viet Cong during Viet Nam. But stooping to their level doesn't prove a thing. If the opposition tortures captured troops, all the more reason to treat the ones we capture with honor. Otherwise, we are no better than they are.

I am one of the ones who thinks we should not be there. But that is the fault of our government, not the troops who only went where they were sent. I can disagree with the government's decision all day long without disrespecting the troops. Can you not make that same distinction?

Annie

Posted by Kyle W. Graf on 12-17-2008 02:01 PM:

Really people. Everyone knows that Sadam used chemical weapons on the Iranians and the Kurds prior to the first gulf war. This isn't in the time frame leading to G.W. Bush's war with Iraq.

If you read my post then you know I was refering to the weapons of mass destruction that President Bush claimed he was protecting us from. I also mentioned the delivery. I feel it is safe to assume that everyone knows that Sadam was not going to fly over New York City in a helicopter and dump chemical agents on us.

Now what were those weapons of mass destruction and what was the delivery system that we were all so afraid of?

I don't think G.W. Bush was refering to a thermos full of chemical agents that could be used as a weapon if you could disperse it up wind from your intended victim, but not to much wind and just the right distance from them or ...... what a joke!

I am on the confined space rescue and Haz Mat team at our plant. I know a little bit about this but not much. You two know a lot less than you pretend to know.

I look at George W. Bush's Presidency and I am not impressed with the man. He did make some gutsy moves that I am glad of. The best example I can think of is refusing to ratify the Kyoto Treaty.

I did not care for the way he acted. Especially in his first term. He did get his ego under control eventually. Overall I just don't think he was a very good President. Some of the things he said were embarrasing.

For the G.W. Bush cheerleaders that do not bother to try to see both sides of an issue sit in your little make believe world and keep telling yourself he did a darn good job. He was one of the best ever. However realize that you are a minority. Most of the country now realizes that he did not do a good job.

Are you going to give Obama the same free pass? I wont.
Kyle

Posted by Kyle W. Graf on 12-17-2008 02:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by prater1
Thank you Randy, I was getting tired of argueing with him myself...LOL

Randy
I would like to thank you also. Prater1 really needed some help. I was even starting to feel sorry for him.

Kyle

Posted by Kyle W. Graf on 12-17-2008 02:13 PM:

I should probably have mentioned that I have friends and family that served in Iraq under President G.W. Bush.

So to the two that say I am disrespecting the troops by criticizing President Bush, don't even bother with that rhetoric. That propaganda was worn out in President Bush's first term.
Kyle

Posted by Kyle W. Graf on 12-17-2008 02:16 PM:

AnnieP
You speak very well. It is refreshing.
Kyle

Posted by AnnieP on 12-17-2008 02:55 PM:

Thank you, Kyle. I seem to be firing on all cylinders today.

Annie

Posted by fletch on 12-17-2008 03:08 PM:

I believe the terrorists would get the same satisfaction to slit an American Bush hater's throat as they would mine, an American Bush supporter. They don't care what our politics are here at home, to them we are ALL infidels that need to be destroyed.

This has been their goal even before Bush was our leader.

__________________
Gary Gawel

Posted by Kenny Eads on 12-17-2008 03:40 PM:

A few of you keep saying our brave men and women were FORCED to fight this war...... That shows your ignorance and your ANTI-American side. They are Serving their country on their own free will. These brave young/ older men and women enlisted on their own will and have fought for you and I and for the less fortunate and some just don't get it. Its not always about our safety but our Allies, and the ones that are helpless that were being mass murdered, raped and other horrific tortures that Saddam did to these people. We didn't invade Iraq souly because we thought he was comming after Us on American Soil we invaded Iraq to rid the rest of the world of this Dictator and his potential threats.The Iraq's tried him and senteced him to death for his terrible crimes. His regime was linked directly to funding terrorist organizations. He had WMD's and used them on his own people and would have used them on our Allies if he needed to.

When you enlist I don't believe you specify where you serve or where you don't want to serve. You enlist to serve and protect your country, and for that we cannot thank these brave men and women enough for what they have sacrificed and the same for ones that have paid the ultimate price .

Posted by smokey7 on 12-17-2008 03:55 PM:

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!! BRING THEM HOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted by rrs on 12-17-2008 04:12 PM:

freedom of speech is not an unabridged-unrestricted right, but a vital consitutional freedom, it is what allows us to hold the gov't. of the people-for the people accountable to those very people... some seem to think that if someone says things they do not believe in that they have violated free speech, much more important to give voice to those that we disagree with than those we are in agreement with, cornerstone of our freedoms.... may diagree with someone, but always will defend that right to disagree...
a soldier does not now or ever for that matter get to choose the war or reasons for it, only to serve with honor, politicians choose to go to war-soldiers just get to fight the same and die if need be... always support our brave men and women who serve, but Iraq was the wrong war-wrong place, hope and pray that we have a successful outcome as a result of the efforts of those who serve so bravely...

Posted by RedBones4me on 12-17-2008 04:27 PM:

I have just a few more things to say.

I served in the Military during the first Gulf War and I have a big problem with people who put down our president. When you put down our Commander in Chief then you are putting us down in a round about way. Dont think for a minute that your words dont hurt the morale of our troops who are currently serving. When someone speaks out against our country and president it is no different than speaking out against me or the rest of the men and women who have served or are currently serving.

Kyle, I already said it one time and apparently you didnt read it slow enough.

Saddam was tried and coinvicted of having WOMD's. The UN failed to take action against him for violating his probation, Bush did not need any other reason to invade Iraq. Bush should be thanked, not critized.

Annie, i agree with the freedom of speech but people must remember one thing.... that freedom that you enjoy is the very freedom that was given by the government that is being put down.

People may have the freedom to bash our government but they need to remember that when our troops get home and they keep up the bashing then they may feel the wrath of our troops expressing one of their freedoms.... and that is the freedom to bust em in the mouth.

I believe that until you have served our great country then you should not be allowed to speak against it without possible punishment.

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Posted by Randy Tallon on 12-17-2008 04:43 PM:

A thermos bottle of biological or chemical agent is capable of mass catastrophy. (25 years in Security Forces and 25 years in Law Enforcement, we are the first responders. We call you HazMat guys AFTER WE identify the "problem"...) My daughter is a tech for the detection and decon of nuclear, biological, and chemical agents. I would say we are a little versed in that arena. Being there, in country for the third time, she feels that we are accomplishing something. And speaking for the military (and I think I can do that for a majority of us military) to insult my/our President, no matter who he may be, is to insult me.

Annie - You're right about our rights. BUT, there is a right way and a wrong way. Insult, libelous language, and degrading someone is not the way. Throw away the peace signs, the Jimi Hendrix and Bob Dylan 8 tracks and organize a respected faction and let your congress people know your not happy and vote, vote, vote. Being in my 50's I know a little bit about Vietnam....(member of the Beaver County,Pa. V.V.A.) I am not condoning mistreatment of POWs or detainees, but you know NOTHING about the "fog of war."

Copy? Over. Out, here.

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Posted by AnnieP on 12-17-2008 04:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RedBones4me
Annie, i agree with the freedom of speech but people must remember one thing.... that freedom that you enjoy is the very freedom that was given by the government that is being put down.

People may have the freedom to bash our government but they need to remember that when our troops get home and they keep up the bashing then they may feel the wrath of our troops expressing one of their freedoms.... and that is the freedom to bust em in the mouth.

I believe that until you have served our great country then you should not be allowed to speak against it without possible punishment.

I do beg your pardon and I thank you for your service. However, we disagree about some things. The Freedom of Speech was not given to us by our government. It is a right of the people this country was founded on. It is a freedom that cannot be taken away by this government or any other government and still be called a Government of the United States. It was a founding principle of this country long before the government as we know it was established.

None of the rights or freedoms or privileges are "given" to us by the government. They are ours by birthright. They are ours by right of being Citizens of this country. What rights the government has are given to it by us - the People. The government serves at the pleasure of the People.

Some people forget that, I think.

And look again, Dale, at the documents that founded this country. The Declaration of Independence, for example. "...All men are created equal... " I don't see anything anywhere that says ," but men who have served in the Armed Forces are more equal than others."

Again, I thank you for your service. A service you chose to render. When you start telling me what I owe you for serving in the Armed Forces, please remember that you were not forced to do it.

I don't mean this as being disrespectful to anyone who has served in our Armed Forces. But don't start telling me that I don't have the right to criticize my government because I didn't choose to enlist.

Annie

Posted by Rip on 12-17-2008 04:54 PM:

You have to laugh at the idiocy of people that equate interrogation with torture.

Terrorism feeds on stupidity, it grows stronger and laughs at the left wing idiots supporting them in this country.

There's a reason the terrorists support the liberals, and the liberals support the terrorists.

The difference is the terrorists know EXACTLY what they are doing and if successful will murder the liberals just the same as any other American "infidel".

The liberals are stupid enough to think they can be "friends".

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Let's go huntin

Posted by Ray&Luie on 12-17-2008 05:06 PM:

freedom

quote:
Originally posted by AnnieP
I do beg your pardon. The right to free speech is one of the greatest things about our country! It's one of the main things our country was founded on. Being able to disagree with the government without being thrown in jail is something that is unique to this country and is one of the main reasons people want to come here.

No matter what you say, you have the right to say it. I have the right to either listen or walk away. Or disagree and discuss it with you. And nobody is going to come arrest us for having that discussion.

Sometimes I think we take that right for granted. Please don't. It is precious and needs to be protected.

Annie

As long as the Ax swings Booth ways i agree, but some times the left forgets there are two heads on the AX

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Posted by AnnieP on 12-17-2008 05:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
You have to laugh at the idiocy of people that equate interrogation with torture.

No, Rip, you have to weep for the people who would bring us down to the level of said terrorists by behaving the same way they do.

We are supposed to be better than they are, aren't we? Hold ourselves to a higher principle? How can we be better than them, make the world a better place if we behave the same way they do?

I have not spoken of the topic of this thread yet. I do not like Bush and can't wait until he's out of office. However, he gained a little bit of admiration from me for his handling of this incident. I have no idea what went on in private but publicly, he blew it off. Some people are saying that he's too stupid to realize what an insult it was. I don't believe that. I believe he chose to diffuse the situation as best he could. If only he had behaved more like this in years previously. Obviously he had it in him. He rose above it and proved that he was a better person than the man who insulted him and by extension, his country.

Those of you who would have had him throw the shoes back or had the man shot on sight would do well to follow his example in this. Bush refused to lower himself to that man's level. As much as it pains me to say it, I admire that.

Annie

Posted by Rip on 12-17-2008 05:23 PM:

Again, interrogation is NOT the same as torture.

My uncle was tortured by the Germans.

Things that the looney left were calling torture were nowhere NEAR torture.

Interrogation is a legitimate way to obtain counter intelligence.

People that don't know the difference in the two and want to treat bonafide terrorists like social visitors are to blame for some of the intelligence break downs that we have had.

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Posted by LARRY TYNES on 12-17-2008 05:24 PM:

you people make me lol. you talk good about one and bad about anogther then get mad when someone says they don,t agree with Mr. Bush. get it right back who ever is put into office.

I wonder just how many that is doing all the talking has ever been in the service or was around to see how the troops were treated when they came home from Veitnam. I was drafted and serve my time and 1 yr. over there with no complaints. I was wounded 2 times and when i came home was treated like i done something wrong. look behine you before you con plain about the future. Larry

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