UKC Forums - I Have Question,about Rules?

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Posted by roughcreek on 07-04-2008 12:47 AM:

i did not say any thing about class. i said treedogs !!

Posted by M.TARLTON on 07-04-2008 01:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by roughcreek
i did not say any thing about class. i said treedogs !!

Exactly if there are 4 hard tree dogs on a tree you know there are going to be bumpins shoulders and alittle blowing. Dogs are alot like people if you got 4 people striving for something they are going to be competitive they want to look the best to win expecially strangers.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 07-04-2008 02:07 AM:

I've seen 4 hard tree dogs on a single tree MANY times bumping and moving WITH NO FACE BARKING. I expect to see no face barking or fussing of any kind. Why do ya'll expect and except it!

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Posted by M.TARLTON on 07-04-2008 02:14 AM:

I dont expect it or except it. Ive had dogs that when they were young they face barked a litte. But as they got older they quit its mainly from pups inexperience and they dont know what they are doing. I havent hunted but with one face barker and that was on a hunt and he minused out because no dogs would back him and he would leave every tree.

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Posted by roughcreek on 07-04-2008 05:48 AM:

i dont expect to see it ether but it happens & the smaller the tree the more likely you are going to see a little blowing. if you go to a hunt with 4 strange dogs on one tree & you dont think you are going to see this once in a while your living in a dream world !! i dont say i think this is good i just know coon huntin & coondogs !! dont think i wont scratch an aggessive dog, i will scratch one in a heart beat !! yours, mine, i dont care. give me half a chance to scratch a rough dog, its a done deal !! a dog that is constantly blowing on a tree ( HE'S A SCRATCHED DOG ) I DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE OR HOW MAD YOU GET !! NO SECOND CHANCE NO WARNING, THAT DOG IS SCRATCHED & WROTE UP !!

Posted by RedBones4me on 07-04-2008 05:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by roughcreek
a dog that is constantly blowing on a tree ( HE'S A SCRATCHED DOG ) I DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE OR HOW MAD YOU GET !! NO SECOND CHANCE NO WARNING, THAT DOG IS SCRATCHED & WROTE UP !!

If you judge cast this way then you need to stop accepting the card when you draw out. You need to inform the MOH that you do not know the rules and therefore you would not make a good judge and tell him to give the card to someone compitent enough to do the job.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 07-04-2008 08:12 AM:

I said I don't expect or except face barking, didn't say I haven't seen it. Most casts I've been on there is none going on and when there is you know it.

Roughcreek, as much as I would like to scratch dogs that are bad face barkers you CAN NOT scratch unless they are interfering with another dog. Example: you have a dog face barking and not letting the other dogs on the tree when they try to get on the tree, scratch him. If he's face barking and the other dogs back up and keep treeing and DO NOT TRY to get on the tree you can not scratch him.

I don't fully agree with the rule interpertation but that's it and that's how you judge it. If you can not or will not judge it as UKC interperts the rule then DON"T JUDGE!

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Posted by Jerry West on 07-04-2008 03:36 PM:

If you have a face barking dog, you don't want to draw me either. Face barking, if it is any more than just a little incidental look and bark, is going to get you scratched. If the face barker is trying to intimidate the other dogs, HE IS INTERFEARING WITH THOSE DOGS. And, for sure, face barking is agressive behavior. So why in the world are some of you making excusses. Just do what is RIGHT, scratch these dogs and stop all this foolish denial.
For the life of me, I can not understand how anyone wants to look the other way when the rules are plain. And not only that the rules are plain, these dogs are not good for our sport.

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Posted by gfults on 07-04-2008 05:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jerry West
If you have a face barking dog, you don't want to draw me either. Face barking, if it is any more than just a little incidental look and bark, is going to get you scratched. If the face barker is trying to intimidate the other dogs, HE IS INTERFEARING WITH THOSE DOGS. And, for sure, face barking is agressive behavior. So why in the world are some of you making excusses. Just do what is RIGHT, scratch these dogs and stop all this foolish denial.
For the life of me, I can not understand how anyone wants to look the other way when the rules are plain. And not only that the rules are plain, these dogs are not good for our sport.

You wanna talk about rules?? You try to scratch my dog for face barking without interference and I'll flip the card over and remind u of the rules! If a facebarking dog dont cause the other dog to be able to tree and it dont leave, u have no interference!! What i dont understand is how some of u claim to love hunting the hunts and gripe about people hunting dogs that blow and face bark. People ARE NOT going to stop hunting dogs that blow and face bark. Why should they? Blowing and face barking dont mean the dog is mean. Those that think thats all it takes to consider a dog mean, has never seen a truly mean dog! U just think u have! If ur gonna hunt the hunts and ur tired of ur dog getting run off trees by face barkinjg dogs knowing people are gonna continue to hunt them, u need to do 1 of 2 things. 1 STICK TO PLEASURE HUNTING THOSE TREE LEAVING CULLS. 2 BUY A BETTER DOG. ONE THAT WILL STAY. The rules say a dog is suppose to go hunting, get struck, get treed, STAY TREED UNTIL THE CAST ARRIVES! Yall wanna scratch rough dogs? Hunt one that will stay with the rough dogs because if 3 out of 4 of the dogs in a cast leave a tree, u cant scratch a dog for trying to run himself off!!! Most of the time a dog gets blamed for being mean is when someones dog just leaves for no reason ( other than being a cull) and the owner wont admit it and wants to blame another dog! If somebody gets in my face and starts yelling and cussing at me, I aint gonna run off. I bet you guys wouldnt either. So why hunt a dog that will do what u wouldnt in the same situation??

Posted by roughcreek on 07-04-2008 06:08 PM:

that is exactly right, it is interferance & aggessive behavior with another dog, if this dog is staying in another dogs face trying to blow it off the tree !!

as far as me carring the score card, i go out to have fun. this is just a game to me & the sun will still rise in the morning if i get beat !! i never have some of the stupid problems that are brought up on the computer. if there is a question or someone is not sure of a call or ruling. we discuss it like gentelmen check the rules on the back of the score card. if someone does not like the ruling i put a question on the card & we go on & have a good time !! if we think we are having a problem with an aggressive dog everybody knows it before we get to the tree !! & we all go in TOGETHER !! no questions if a dog gets scratched !! everybody see's it & everybody has a say in scratching this dog or dogs but i will make the final dissision if i'm carrying score card !! anybody raise thier voice or cuss anybody on the cast they will be scratched !! i am give the score card most of the time at any of our local clubs for this reason !! no problems, no questions, no arguing & everybody has a good time !! no you probly would not like for me to carry the card !!

i was at a hunt last weekend, dogs made 3 tree's together not the 1st off bark. 4th tree 3 dogs treed in, there was a little squable at the tree. we all went in together dogs were treed on the side of a creek on a small leaning tree about a foot through with just enough room for 1 dog to stand on tree, one dog is in the tree about 4 feet the others are knocking each other off the tree trying to stay on it a blow here & there but no harm. this is what i'm trying to say you know if a dog or dogs needs to be scratched !!

Posted by jculler8 on 07-04-2008 07:44 PM:

Most dogs that blow are typically doing it because another dog came in about 3-4 minutes after the tree had been made. That dog deserves to be blown on for covering that late anyways!!!

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Posted by Jerry West on 07-05-2008 12:34 AM:

MR GFULTS,
First let me say, please don't cross the 'gentleman line'.

Now to answer your question. Yes, I have been hunting for just a few hunts. I won my first UKC Hunt in 1963. That was 45 years ago. I have owned many Nite Champions and Grand Nite Champions. I hunt both pleasure and competition because I enjoy my dogs. They are not the best, but they are also not 'culls" I have been a MOH for close to 20 years. Because I have to work 5 or 6 days a week and my wife is on dialysis, I'm not able to follow the Purina points or hunt a lot in the major large hunts. We do make as many local and Bluetick Hunts as possible. Most of the time when I hunt, I am ask to carry the card.

If you ever draw me as a judge, you can flip the card over if you like. It still reads 'aggressive behavior' and 'interference'. Face barking with the intent to back a dog off the tree meets both critera. Your dog will get scratched. AND most every other hunter will sure vote to let that ruleing stand. Most hunters don't want to hunt their dogs with facebarkers. It is just wrong behavior in that dog.

Posted by RedBones4me on 07-05-2008 03:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jerry West
If you ever draw me as a judge, you can flip the card over if you like. It still reads 'aggressive behavior' and 'interference'. Face barking with the intent to back a dog off the tree meets both critera. Your dog will get scratched.

I dont seem to recall anywhere in the rules it says anything about INTENT. The rules are very clear and what it says is "Aggressive Behavior and Interference".

Aggressive Behavior = blowing, face barking, growling, ect;

Interference = dog leaves tree because of the above, dog takes minus because of the above

What interference does not say is Intent.

It does not matter if a dog is blowing because it does not WANT the other dog to tree, It does not matter if the dog is face barking because it does not WANT to share and it most certainly does not matter if the dog has the INTENT to run the other dog off the tree as long as the other dog does not leave.

I run into people like you alot at the hunts who just because they have been doing something for 30 years makes them the expert. Well I would like to remind everyone of an old saying that I am sure you are familiar with.

Even old dogs can learn new tricks

Just because something has been done a certain way for so long does not always make it right.

Posted by Jerry West on 07-05-2008 01:47 PM:

And I have run into people like you......
there is a new generation of hunters, that have the mentality that mean is 'fangs and blood'.
The rules still read 'aggressive' - that includes face backing
and 'interferance' - if it effects the treeing of another dog .... that does not mean that the other dog has to leave and be minused... the word is plan 'interference' means to hinder or have an effect on. They don't have to be rolling in the mud to be effected or huindered.
These facebarking dogs are always just one step from a dog fight. Why hunt them in hunts? If you want to hunt them with your own dogs that is your business. But I'm not going to pay an entry fee, so a person can hunt that kind of dog with mine. That dog is going to get scratched, and the rest of the cast will go on and have a good time. Hunting should be fun, not a worrying about a dog fight all night.

Posted by Treed First on 07-05-2008 03:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jerry West
And I have run into people like you......
there is a new generation of hunters, that have the mentality that mean is 'fangs and blood'.
The rules still read 'aggressive' - that includes face backing
and 'interferance' - if it effects the treeing of another dog .... that does not mean that the other dog has to leave and be minused... the word is plan 'interference' means to hinder or have an effect on. They don't have to be rolling in the mud to be effected or huindered.
These facebarking dogs are always just one step from a dog fight. Why hunt them in hunts? If you want to hunt them with your own dogs that is your business. But I'm not going to pay an entry fee, so a person can hunt that kind of dog with mine. That dog is going to get scratched, and the rest of the cast will go on and have a good time. Hunting should be fun, not a worrying about a dog fight all night.

Mr. West has it dead on target here... Excellantly put and what he said is the truth.

This thread is turned into the most rediculous reading I have ever saw. Why do you guys put up with any of that aggresive stuff in your dogs? I wouldn't put up with it for 3 seconds !!! The dogs I have will either stop aggresive behaviour immediately or I will cave their head in . The choice is theirs. I cant see why anyone wants to put up with it , unless it is to run somebodys elses dog off tree so they can win more oftin.

Posted by roughcreek on 07-05-2008 04:03 PM:

jerry west, you are exactly right a dog that is staying in another dogs face is one step way from a dog fight !! this kind of dog is ill no to ways about it !! i would not own an ill dog & i would never put a dog in a hunt that might interfer with another mans dog by constantly face barking or any other illness !! i do not own a dog that will be run off a tree or bullyed on a tree or allow a dog to stay in its face !! any man that would put this type dog in a hunt cares only about his self & winning at any cost !! anybody that will make excusses for this type dog is the same way !! if it looks like a duck & quacks like a duck, its got to be a duck !!

Posted by on 07-05-2008 04:42 PM:

Dale,
I think that old saying is actually:

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

Face barking is a scratch if the judge and one thinks it is.......or if three think it is.
Forget about the MOH changing anything, it is judgement and the outcome of the vote will almost never be overruled. Same for the formal complaint process. In this instance, again, it is a judgement and you aren't likely to see UKC overrule a judge or majority cast vote on a judgement call.
So in the real world, facebarking is a scratch when the judge or cast vote says it is. If the judge or a majority say it isn't, then it isn't.

Posted by M.TARLTON on 07-05-2008 04:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Dale,
I think that old saying is actually:

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

Face barking is a scratch if the judge and one thinks it is.......or if three think it is.
Forget about the MOH changing anything, it is judgement and the outcome of the vote will almost never be overruled. Same for the formal complaint process. In this instance, again, it is a judgement and you aren't likely to see UKC overrule a judge or majority cast vote on a judgement call.
So in the real world, facebarking is a scratch when the judge or cast vote says it is. If the judge or a majority say it isn't, then it isn't.

Thats were alot of people on here are wrong face barking alone is not a sratch. Some people will try to scratch and minus you for nothing just to get ahead. The main reason dogs blow is because they treed first and they want it to their self. Thats it thats the reason every one hate blowers and facebarkers they are treein first. When you have a blower getting 125 on every tree he is going to be leading and the judge scratches him so he can have a chance to win. Thats what its mainly about people winning dishonestly!!

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Posted by RedBones4me on 07-06-2008 12:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Dale,
I think that old saying is actually:

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

Jim, I was just being a little sarcastic.

I am sick and tired of people trying to scratch dogs for things that are not scratchable, according to the rules.

Most of the time if someones dog leaves the tree the first thing that the handler says is that there must be a mean dog in there.
The next thing they want to do is scratch a dog at the tree because they face bark.
IMO most want to scratch a dog for fighting in order to cover the fact that they have a dog that wont stay treed even if it were by itself.
I do not like mean dogs nor do I hunt them. But, I do know the rules and I expect everyone to follow them and if they cant then they should save their entry fee and stay at home.

Posted by coonhunter517 on 07-06-2008 01:00 AM:

Scratch only the agressor. the other dogs were just defending themselves.

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Posted by Jerry West on 07-06-2008 02:58 AM:

NO WAY does a dog just facebark because another dog covers his tree. That dog facebarks because he is mean and wants the other dog to leave HIS tree.
AND NO I don't want to scratch a dog just because he is ahead and I want to get him out of the hunt.

Back to facts, if a dog facebarks (aggressive behavior) and trys to back another dog away from the tree (interference), then that dog, according to the rules, will get scratched. 9 out of 10 hunters will aggree with that. The only ones that I have ever seen get upset about it are people that are hunting mean dogs.

In the last 10 years, I have had to leave three laying in the woods. I did it with a broken heart, but facebarking dogs are going to lead to mean dogs.
ABOUT 15 years ago, I hurt my relationship with a good friend because I kept hunting a real coondog that was getting aggressive. I let it go uintil it ended in a dog fight. I have never forgiven myself. And it will not happen again. I promise you and him "it will not, if I can do anything to prevent it".

Also, my best friend and hunting buddy for many years, bought a pup about 16 months ago. At the age of 7 or 8 months he started just a little facebacking. Around the tree or just when we turned loose. He tried to correct it. But to no real success. This young dog continued to get just a little more agressive inch by inch. Finally, I stopped hunting with by best friend. Not that I was afraid that this year old dog was going to ruin or chew up one of my dogs. I just do not want any of my dogs getting started in this behavior. At last, the dog had to be killed. He had begun to started fights with any male that would stand up to him. I truly felt sorry for my friend. He had so much hope for this 'very good breed pup.'

You see fellows, facebarking hurts more than a night hunt.

Don't make excuses because others will not.

Posted by Ron Brickles on 07-06-2008 04:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Treed First
Mr. West has it dead on target here... Excellantly put and what he said is the truth.

This thread is turned into the most rediculous reading I have ever saw. Why do you guys put up with any of that aggresive stuff in your dogs? I wouldn't put up with it for 3 seconds !!! The dogs I have will either stop aggresive behaviour immediately or I will cave their head in . The choice is theirs. I cant see why anyone wants to put up with it , unless it is to run somebodys elses dog off tree so they can win more oftin.

WELL SAID

THIS HAS TURNED INTO EVERY THING EXEPT WHAT I ASKED I ASKED ABOUT ACTAULLY SINKING TEETH TO ANOTHER HOUND, AND THIS THREAD HAS TURNED INTO, LET ME TELL YOU MY DOG WILL START IT ,AND IM OK WITH IT . THATS SAD !!!!!

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Posted by on 07-06-2008 05:44 PM:

Dale, I agree with you completely. But if the judge or a majority scratches the dog it will almost certainly stay scratched after the process is completed. So face barking is scratchable when they say it is. That is the bottom line.

Posted by M.TARLTON on 07-07-2008 12:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Dale, I agree with you completely. But if the judge or a majority scratches the dog it will almost certainly stay scratched after the process is completed. So face barking is scratchable when they say it is. That is the bottom line.

How can you keep saying that facebarking alone is scratchable? I dont care if 3/4 of of the cast sayes scratch that dog for facebarking they are wrong!!!! Interference is if they run a dog off the tree. How are they interfering when the dog pays them no attetion and keeps treeing. Read the rule book "aggressive behavior and interference". Not just aggressive behavior.

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Posted by gfults on 07-07-2008 12:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Dale, I agree with you completely. But if the judge or a majority scratches the dog it will almost certainly stay scratched after the process is completed. So face barking is scratchable when they say it is. That is the bottom line.

If Im working a hunt as a moh, and a cast brings a ques whether to scratch or not to scratch a dog over this issue, and all the cast members say that dog A blowed and/or facebarked at dog B and dog B had no problem getting on tree and treeing, and didnt leave tree, dog A will remain in that cast whether 1 person voted to scratch it or 3 people voted to scratch it. If dog A dont interfere with dog B then there is no problem. Its plain in black and white in the rules. A mojority vote does not override the rulebook! If blowing and a little facebarking is all it takes to make a dog leave a tree, then it aint worth paying entry fees and $5 a gal. gas to go to the hunts. I cant believe how naive grown men are to expect grown mature male hounds to stand on a tree close to one another, even touching at times, and not show a little testosterone! How many of you would just turn and walk away if i came up to u and started yelling at u and cussing u out and calling u names and such?? I hope none of you. Some of you say dogs that blow and facebark are culls? Its not nice to mess with mother nature!!

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