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-- All Grand ... Good Or Not? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=111122)

MJFlores, First of all I aint jelous of no one nor no mans dogs. I do not think you get my point at all. I am not nocking the all gr. dog nor am I saying you cant get a great dog out of an all Gr. I think people are making a huge mistake for breeding for an all gr. pedigree. You are making the same mistake if you go breed to a nt.ch or pr dog if you dont know the dog, what kind of pups it throws and what its ancestors were like ! I think anytime you breed by papers, advertisement or winnings without knowing first hand all the above mentioned info. on a dog you are making a big mistake and lining the pockets of those that are just in it for the money. You can get good and bad from all grds. or from grade dogs. I would not take either without knowing exactly what I was getting. People put way too much faith in what they read wether it be on pedigrees or advertisement, before I fork over the cash they better prove it to me, firsthand. If that all gr. pup is truly worth 800 or 1000 dollars ask the stud dog owner if he'll just take pick pup for his stud fee. If he's got that much confidence in his stud then he should be more then willing to. If he's already got too many dogs then he can turn around and sell the pup, he shouldn't have any problem moving it, and he'll make a lot more than the 300 to 500 dollar stud fee he's charging!

I aint gonna lie here.I'd love to have an all grand pup.I just cant afford one.If somebody wants to send me one thats bred right.Send it on.It will get its chance!!! I know of pups sold for 1000 dollars that were not all grand.Know where a good bitch is that was just bred.I'd LOVE to have a pup out of the cross but know they will be way out of my price range and they want be all grand.Rat x cloey.I bet the whole litter will be above average coondogs! Anybody want to buy me one to hunt? LOL! If I had a 1000 in a pup I'd be skeered to turn it loose.

quote:

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Originally posted by wade hahn
All grand is good as long as you are still breeding for traits. Wether it is mouth,hunting style, tracking or treeing or what ever else you are looking to improve on. It will onle get better when outher lines get to be all grand and the gene pool gets bigger. Lets be honest thare will always be the people in it for the money and there will allways be the narrow minded jelous people out there too that call it a joke. But there are also people out there that want a to breed coondog to coondog that will complement each outher that are allgrand. Those are the people who are going to take it to the next level.

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Im just an old country boy but i have figured out the something
The only difference between a 1500.00 all grand pup and a 200.00 non grand pup is





1300.00

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ROBERT DEAN
COONDOG MAFIA MEMBER.

all grand

i think all grand can be a good thing. i mean yah if they are all grand yes they have proven themselves in the hunts no doubt although some dogs have gotten titles that they havent truly deserved. but it depends on what your looking for. if you are really into comp. hunting and thats what gives you a hard on lol then yah that all grand will probably be ok as long as you know about the cross your investing in. but me personally i dont care if its all grand or not, im goin to check the mom and dad out and other pups out of that cross as best as i can. i guess what im sayin is that theres nothin wrong with an all grand ped. just make sure you know what your buyin and not just goin by those papers. but thats the same with any cross you invest in, all grand or not. i just find a pup out of a cross i konw about and know that is doing well and producing nice dogs. thats all you can do. but there aint no way id pay 1000 dollars or more for a puppy, all grand or not. i guess its just not worth it to me. but to some of you it may be. but i think alot of you guys that pay 1000 for a puppy and it dont turn out are quick to pawn it off on someone else so you dont lose your money verses cullin a 250 or 300 dollar pup like the 1000 dollar pup should be which is why we got those hard tree dogs out there that slick tree all the time. jmo

Stylsih Harry and Rat threw all grand pups and were in my opinion the best two sires of the last few years.

All grands have proven themselves as big winners in UKC and PKC and there isn't very many of them compared to the number of registered coonhounds.

Continuous generations of grand nite champions should show a bloodlines ability to consistently produce winners.

Pedigrees with a lot of dogs that haven't won anything are probably because the winning traits are not dominant enough to show up every generation or have too much worthless junk mixed in.

Just breeding two good hounds together is no different than people did 100 years ago. With todays pedigrees and known percentages of reproducing ability a person should be looking farther than coondog + coondog.

I agree that breeding a all grand that is not a coondog is a step in the wrong direction.

I also think that some people are putting mediocre females in 100 nite hunts to finally finish them because of their pedigree. Lets face it, if a female can't finish to grand nite pretty quick she probably isn't breeding material.

In my opinion a female should only be bred if she is a top hound, from a top litter, from a reproducing bloodline, and has no health defects. Obviously not very many people agree with that though or 90% of the litters being raised would never happen.

quote:

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Originally posted by Travis Brown
Stylsih Harry and Rat threw all grand pups and were in my opinion the best two sires of the last few years.

All grands have proven themselves as big winners in UKC and PKC and there isn't very many of them compared to the number of registered coonhounds.

Continuous generations of grand nite champions should show a bloodlines ability to consistently produce winners.

Pedigrees with a lot of dogs that haven't won anything are probably because the winning traits are not dominant enough to show up every generation or have too much worthless junk mixed in.

Just breeding two good hounds together is no different than people did 100 years ago. With todays pedigrees and known percentages of reproducing ability a person should be looking farther than coondog + coondog.

I agree that breeding a all grand that is not a coondog is a step in the wrong direction.

I also think that some people are putting mediocre females in 100 nite hunts to finally finish them because of their pedigree. Lets face it, if a female can't finish to grand nite pretty quick she probably isn't breeding material.

In my opinion a female should only be bred if she is a top hound, from a top litter, from a reproducing bloodline, and has no health defects. Obviously not very many people agree with that though or 90% of the litters being raised would never happen.

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__________________
The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Yep. That's prolly the best words I have read on this subject.

It would be nice to know how many hunts it took a dog to finish in ... and just as important , how many times did the dog get withdrawn from a losing cast so that you couldn't see where they scored low or with minus ?

With all grands comes RESTRICTIONS. Not being able to breed to a stud unless it is an all grand. NEVER should titles come before ability. The walker breed became the breed it is by hunters not settling for nothing but the best ability, not the most TITLES. This restriction in the long run will hurt the breed. I'm just glad when i'm looking for a stud, the first question asked is about his ability, not is he an all grand. Ronnie Hall

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All Coon Dogs

I like just about everyone else wants a strong pedigree behind their hounds. I personally would like to see some out crosses made to get a all grand on buckcreek, wipeout, and lipper blood. Its getting close and would just like to see it. Does it make them better than a pup out pr dog, no, but I like my chances and odds better to buy a pup out of two strong coon dogs that have a strong pedigree behind them. Your odds are better, I've tried it both ways and from my experienced, you will come out a lot cheaper paying a high price for a super nice pup than buying five out of females that are just brood females. JMO. Say you get one out of the five that makes a good dog and your buddy buys one for a all grand and they both are very similar dogs, but his has super strong pedigree. Which do you think is going to bring 10,000 and which is going to bring a 1000. This isn't a fairy tale and its not always going to happen this way, but if you do your part and hunt a pup the way it should be out of two nice hounds with a good background, your odds are much better. Like I said, this is just my opinon, I made be dead wrong. If I am, I'll learn from it in the future. lol. Tim

Im not saying Jade will reproduce anything BUT look at her ped at all the reproducers ,I think my chances are pretty good IF an I say IF I do my HOME WORK an I make the right cross with the right stud dog ,I agree 100% you have to breed coondogs to coondogs

.............Gr Nt Hard Knockin Stylish Hayes...#5 male
.....Gr Nt Ch Ball's Stylish Hickory Nut Harry,,,#4 male
.............Gr Nt Ch Schmersals Stylish Anna...#3 female
Gr Nt Ch Crow & Grants Cutter (Sire)...#7 Current male
.............Gr Nt Ch Rock River Sackett jr...#3 male
.....Gr Nt Ch Night Heat Abby...#8 female
.............Gr Nt Ch Night Heat Dixie...#9 female


GRNITECH PKC CH FERGUSONS CAROLIA JADE


............Gr Nt Ch Minkler's Kansas Dancer..GR.NT.CH.NEOSHA R. JET
.....Gr Nt Ch Southern Pines Jet
............Gr Nt Ch Skean's Dolly...HALL OF FAME...Dohoney's Boone
Gr Nt Ch Abbott's Tree Jammin Sadie (DAM)
............Gr Nt Ch Nocturnal Nailor...#2 male
.....Gr Nt Ch Abbott's Nocturnal Jodie...#1 female
............Gr Nt Ch Abbott's Big Horn Daisey...#4 female

I personally think all grand has set the walker breed back forever just because too many people breed for money how many allgrang females were probably finished with a female that is not allgrand several if you think just because a dog is grnite its a coondog dead wrong i know there are some nice allgrand dogs out there and if a cross was made that i liked that was all grand i would buy 1 but when people breed platinum ch to platinum ch thats what catches my attention of all the big winners out of rat how many were all grand i can only think of 3 that are silver ch or better

__________________
Jason Harper

I am late on this post but better late than never I have always heard . Anyway , I own an all grand female and i have hunted with enough all grand dogs before finding her that almost made me quit hunting all together !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes you can get a good dog here and there , but most ppl aren't really looking at genectics nor trying to produce quality dogs this is what is hurting these dogs .

I have recently found some old blood that works and are still coondogs and not circle point tree dog every 30 yds are less they are pulling up ........... we have truly gotten away from what a coondog is with the all grand hype , but if you know how to breed you can reproduce good dogs out of these all grands , if tom dick and harry would stop breeding that 25 dog to all these high powered dogs or if the stud owners would forget the dollars , super stakes , pp and so forth and examine the females being backed up to there dogs we could improve overall % of these hounds , a female is 70% of what that pup is going to be keep that in mind .............. jmo

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quote:

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Originally posted by OKTREEDOG
Im just an old country boy but i have figured out the something
The only difference between a 1500.00 all grand pup and a 200.00 non grand pup is





1300.00

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Re: Re: All Grand ... Good Or Not?

quote:

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Originally posted by Christy
I'VE NEVER BEEN THAT HOT ON ALL GRANDS. SURE SKEETER'S PEDIGREE WOULD BE ALL GRAND IF SHE WAS, BUT SHE IS NOT IN OUR KENNEL BECAUSE OF HER PEDIGREE.

WITH US, COON DOGS COME FIRST, PEDIGREES SECOND. SURE IT'S NICE TO HAVE A NICE LOOKING PEDIGREE ON PUPS.

BUT WHAT PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND IS THIS.

EVERYONE WANTS TO GET BACK THE "COON DOGS LIKE WE USED TO HAVE" LOOK BACK AT ALL THE "COON DOGS" BACK THEN, AND SEE HOW MANY HAD "ALL GRAND PEDIGREES."

NONE. MOST WERE PR WITH A COUPLE OF NTCH OR GRNTCH IF YOU WERE LUCKY.

IF PEOPLE WOULD GET BACK TO BREEDING FOR COON DOGS, AND NOT PEDIGREED PUPS I THINK THEY WOULD BE ALOT MORE SATISFIED WITH THE OUTCOME.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Travis Brown
Stylsih Harry and Rat threw all grand pups and were in my opinion the best two sires of the last few years.

All grands have proven themselves as big winners in UKC and PKC and there isn't very many of them compared to the number of registered coonhounds.

Continuous generations of grand nite champions should show a bloodlines ability to consistently produce winners.

Pedigrees with a lot of dogs that haven't won anything are probably because the winning traits are not dominant enough to show up every generation or have too much worthless junk mixed in.

Just breeding two good hounds together is no different than people did 100 years ago. With todays pedigrees and known percentages of reproducing ability a person should be looking farther than coondog + coondog.

I agree that breeding a all grand that is not a coondog is a step in the wrong direction.

I also think that some people are putting mediocre females in 100 nite hunts to finally finish them because of their pedigree. Lets face it, if a female can't finish to grand nite pretty quick she probably isn't breeding material.

In my opinion a female should only be bred if she is a top hound, from a top litter, from a reproducing bloodline, and has no health defects. Obviously not very many people agree with that though or 90% of the litters being raised would never happen.

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Home of these Hamilton county treeing walkers.
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' OWEN'S STYLISH NOCTURNAL SHAKER.
And the pup 'pr' Owen's Rock River Ace...

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Re: Re: Re: All Grand ... Good Or Not?

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Originally posted by Maniac
VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY TRUE POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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__________________
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38

Watch in the book and see which bigtime breeders make grandnite after grandnite in their own little backyard club with little or no competition, and then straight to the stud or brood pen with an all grand pedigree.

Dont put too much stock in a pc of paper. The only way to know is to go for a hunt.

Then, look at the # of entrys then look at your stud of choices score.

Re: Re: All Grand ... Good Or Not?

quote:

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Originally posted by Christy


BUT WHAT PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND IS THIS.

EVERYONE WANTS TO GET BACK THE "COON DOGS LIKE WE USED TO HAVE" LOOK BACK AT ALL THE "COON DOGS" BACK THEN, AND SEE HOW MANY HAD "ALL GRAND PEDIGREES."

NONE. MOST WERE PR WITH A COUPLE OF NTCH OR GRNTCH IF YOU WERE LUCKY.

IF PEOPLE WOULD GET BACK TO BREEDING FOR COON DOGS, AND NOT PEDIGREED PUPS I THINK THEY WOULD BE ALOT MORE SATISFIED WITH THE OUTCOME.

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I think that it would indeed be a mistake just to breed to an ALL-GRAND, simply because he is an ALL-GRAND, but on the other hand it could be a mistake not to breed just because he is an ALL-GRAND....

quote:

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Originally posted by larry tuttle
I think that it would indeed be a mistake just to breed to an ALL-GRAND, simply because he is an ALL-GRAND, but on the other hand it could be a mistake not to breed just because he is an ALL-GRAND....

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quote:

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Originally posted by wildbill
right but how many people have the money to go hunt with all the dogs in a 3 gen all grand ped to see how many got their title by someone useing a ringer coondog with their easy intry card or by a pro handler and friends padding the score card...

getting an all grand ped takes a lot of hunters getting the dogs into the hunts with the best pups out of the litters to carry on the all grand titles,,,there are a lot of people who care more about making money off the titled pups than putting in the time/money and effort to push the pups in the night hunts to acheve this

there arent enough hunters like mr.abbot who could do what he has done with his dogs..i'd say he wore out a lot of boots hunting his dogs to get his all grand family of dogs,...

myself ,i wouldnt breed to an all grand stud unless that dogs ped showed a lot of linebreeding behind him ..an allgrand outcrossed stud wont have a stable genetic ped to pass down to its pups,,the pups would be just luck of the draw on getting solid foundation for coondogs for the future

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__________________
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38

quote:

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Originally posted by Travis Brown
Stylsih Harry and Rat threw all grand pups and were in my opinion the best two sires of the last few years.

All grands have proven themselves as big winners in UKC and PKC and there isn't very many of them compared to the number of registered coonhounds.

Continuous generations of grand nite champions should show a bloodlines ability to consistently produce winners.

Pedigrees with a lot of dogs that haven't won anything are probably because the winning traits are not dominant enough to show up every generation or have too much worthless junk mixed in.

Just breeding two good hounds together is no different than people did 100 years ago. With todays pedigrees and known percentages of reproducing ability a person should be looking farther than coondog + coondog.

I agree that breeding a all grand that is not a coondog is a step in the wrong direction.

I also think that some people are putting mediocre females in 100 nite hunts to finally finish them because of their pedigree. Lets face it, if a female can't finish to grand nite pretty quick she probably isn't breeding material.

In my opinion a female should only be bred if she is a top hound, from a top litter, from a reproducing bloodline, and has no health defects. Obviously not very many people agree with that though or 90% of the litters being raised would never happen.

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