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-- What rule??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928541412)

Rules

It seems like every time a Rule violation occurs in a big UKC HUNT that folks get on you griping and complaining like crazy. You never see this kind of behavior on the PKC FORUM. Why is this? I suspect the difference is that UKC tolerates more of an open, hands off reaction to this FORUM. I for one am glad that UKC grants us these liberties in expressing our opinions and thoughts. UKC even grants us some very liberal voices in changing or tweaking the night hunt rules. Saying this, if we do not like a rule we can work to get the Rule changed or eliminated, but until then we ALL must abide by the RULES in place whether we like them or not. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Originally posted by houndsound

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Jason Smith
Home Of
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IMO, the judge's no call was correct, in every sport the officials take care to let them play. The panel over ruled the judge on a no a harm incident the was corrected before it had any influence on who was going to win or lose. Common sense didn't kick in

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Originally posted by elvis
Would it make a difference if the judge accidentally told him to turn loose?

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Originally posted by Night Shift
Because there is an 8 minute rule a dog has to bar at least every 8 minutes or it takes a minus. Once the judge hears a dog he then tells a handler to cut loose.

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Seeking Soli Deo Gloria through the hounds.

Maybe a rehunt is in the future! 😎. I feel sure Russ Bellar isn’t content with it.

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Get deep or Get Beat!

Re: .

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
We have a lot of assumptions on here.

I read a statement on another social media platform that there were some words spoken by the judge immediately before the dog was cut loose. I think when we quit assuming and that information is verified. The facts might point to a misunderstanding between judge and handler. It was rectified right away by the dog being caught. Like mentioned here. No Harm, No Foul.

But then the coon hunting lawyers take over and fair never seems to be fair.

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It’s human nature to assume and make a judgement with out the facts. One fact was the female was winning by pretty good junk and that alone makes guy feel like the best dog of the night might not won. But hunts is team effort and dog and handler have to perform and compete under the rules. I personally do feel like the ukc with all it outlets and social media platform could and should inform everyone of the facts and what if any actions are pending. It’s not a secret what’s happened give us the facts at least to this point.

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For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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Nathan Phenix
417-255-5697

quote:

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Originally posted by Nathan Phenix
It’s human nature to assume and make a judgement with out the facts. One fact was the female was winning by pretty good junk and that alone makes guy feel like the best dog of the night might not won. But hunts is team effort and dog and handler have to perform and compete under the rules. I personally do feel like the ukc with all it outlets and social media platform could and should inform everyone of the facts and what if any actions are pending. It’s not a secret what’s happened give us the facts at least to this point.

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Elvis, now your getting to the version that I heard. The judge didn't use the words turn loose. But said. We are Good. Mistaken by the handler to mean, Turn Loose. Then when corrected by the judge with no-no-no. Dog caught in a few steps. If that is the truth and I wasn't there. That shouldn't cost a man a World Championship.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
Read my post again, in both cases of the dogs getting scratched there was not a case of the other dogs having a disadvantage, it was a case of handler error both times, just as this was a case of handler error. It had nothing to do with the other dogs getting a disadvantage, simply that a rule was broken. I am absolutely sure that in all 3 cases of the best dog getting scratched that the handlers would not make the same mistake again. High stress situations cause a lot of mistakes, but those mistakes are not forgiven or overlooked, nor should they be. Everyone must and should play by the same rules to have a fair game. Dave

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quote:

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Originally posted by Night Shift
I was standing to far back to hear. But the Judge didn’t scratch him. Him cutting his dog and jumping on the dog to catch it was questioned by another handler. Panel of Master hounds determined he was scratched.

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__________________
NOW THE LUNATICS ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM IN WASHINGTON,DC.
MY SILENCE DOES NOT MEAN I AGREE WITH YOU...IT MEANS YOUR LEVEL OF STUPIDITY RENDERS ME SPEECHLESS
I AM NOT ARGUING WITH YOU..I AM JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY I AM RIGHT
TRUTH IS TREASON IN AN EMPIRE OF LIES...G. Orwell
DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU...G. Carlin
ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE WORK RELENTLESSLY TO CENSOR THOSE WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH...Ron DeSantis

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Hound sound if the dog turned loose barked. Then the dog with the time running on it. Perhaps would not get deserved minus. Also once the strike situation is determined by the dog with the clock running on it. Time out can be called and the cast brought back together again. Also if the dogs holding the strike open are misused. It can change the points for the strike once one of them do open. Lot of little things and yes the rules need to be followed for all of them to fall into place. Unfortunately when coon hunters get on the biggest stage. All to often things like this happen. It also happens weekly but no one cares. Ask a good rule question on here and see the different answers that come from knowledgeable men that are spending their time judging and putting on these hunts. You have to be thankful for them and at the same time. Just shake your head and move on.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

It’s always let me say it again it’s always been UKC hunters mentality to scratch scratch scratch. Why? So many times over the years people get scratched as a first alternative instead of a last alternative. Nothing right about it, you rectify the un intentional wrong and move on. The unintentional wrong was the handler cut the dog loose, the rectified situation happened when judge said no no no and the handler quickly retrieved the dog. The judge at that point can Instruct all handlers to be sure to wait till he says cut loose from then on and give handler a warning and continue hunting. No where in the rules under Scratchable offense by handler is the situation that happened covered. The panel should take note of that and make amends for future rules. Just nothing right about it IMO. Sad deal.

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I am a "Has Been" "Done That" semi-retired from Coon Hunting, raising my family and will be back!

No need comparing UKC & PKC on here.
PKC states "scratching should be a last resort" where ukc has taken the world title away after it was awarded.

__________________
Ezekiel 23:20

Their is absolutely no comparing the 2 KC’s.

__________________
I am a "Has Been" "Done That" semi-retired from Coon Hunting, raising my family and will be back!

Re: What rule???

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Originally posted by gdjr
What rule says that Miney should have been scratched? I can't find anything that says to scratch for turning loose at the wrong time??

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Iseeum
It’s always let me say it again it’s always been UKC hunters mentality to scratch scratch scratch. Why? So many times over the years people get scratched as a first alternative instead of a last alternative. Nothing right about it, you rectify the un intentional wrong and move on. The unintentional wrong was the handler cut the dog loose, the rectified situation happened when judge said no no no and the handler quickly retrieved the dog. The judge at that point can Instruct all handlers to be sure to wait till he says cut loose from then on and give handler a warning and continue hunting. No where in the rules under Scratchable offense by handler is the situation that happened covered. The panel should take note of that and make amends for future rules. Just nothing right about it IMO. Sad deal. [/QUOTE

100% correct... this becomes a serious issue with youth hunters just starting out in the hunts. Youth and new hunters are prone to make mistakes... this is NOT the way to educate them... most will become frustrated quickly and not return.. those that do return will quickly learn to adopt the same mentality.. not what we should want in our sport.. I’ll be the first to tell new hunters learn the rules first but at the same time would you want to receive a life sentence for jaywalking... just saying

If you flip this situation to the judge told the handler to cut loose but the handler didn’t understand what the judge wanted immediately and the judge had to tell the handler again to turn the dog loose, to get the action the judge wanted, would the dog have been scratched? Basically the same thing, unintentional failure to correctly follow the judges instructions for a few seconds, which is what sounds like happened in this situation.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

I like what Toad Hill and Sonny Phillips posted. Jr.Steelman

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Allen / UKC
Administrator
Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8914


quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Mr Gingerich, I know that you are back with us now. Are you not going to give us UKC's official ruling? If you turn your dog loose or if you handle your dog without the judge's permission, can he scratch you?
Or is this one of those "grey areas" with a lot of maybe yes's and maybe no's.

Allen / UKC
Administrator
Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8914

Re: Re-Cast situation question

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Jennings
Dogs A, B, C, and D are struck in and A, B, C are declared treed. Upon scoring the tree, we step away from the tree and Dog D is barking a few hundred yards away. Handler D trees his dog immediately while A, B, C are still on the leash. Is this a leash lock (even though shine time was over and tree was scored)? Or should we have cut loose the second we heard dog D barking


Under current rules; those scored dogs are leash-locked. In 2020, the scored dogs will have the option to recast unless the cast agreed to call time out after scoring Dog D.


The judge is the one in charge and the "instructor" of the cast, so to speak. Yes, the judge could scratch a handler for casting or handling his dog when he was instructed not to.

("KEY WORD .... COULD" So does that mean scratching is not absolute as a punisment ? )

But that instruction to cast or handle should be consistent within the rules. Therefore, such a scratch could be questioned, and in the end, the official ruling should reflect the applicable rule as it relates to the specific situation at hand.

I submit that th "IMPLIED SCRATCH" is too vague a catch all term. It allows for as in any situation a rule to be interpreted that you can be scratched for nearly anything a coniving handler or hunting judge could argue .
or decide to scratch.

__________________
NOW THE LUNATICS ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM IN WASHINGTON,DC.
MY SILENCE DOES NOT MEAN I AGREE WITH YOU...IT MEANS YOUR LEVEL OF STUPIDITY RENDERS ME SPEECHLESS
I AM NOT ARGUING WITH YOU..I AM JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY I AM RIGHT
TRUTH IS TREASON IN AN EMPIRE OF LIES...G. Orwell
DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU...G. Carlin
ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE WORK RELENTLESSLY TO CENSOR THOSE WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH...Ron DeSantis

quote:

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Originally posted by benderb4
Allen / UKC
Administrator
Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8914


quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Mr Gingerich, I know that you are back with us now. Are you not going to give us UKC's official ruling? If you turn your dog loose or if you handle your dog without the judge's permission, can he scratch you?
Or is this one of those "grey areas" with a lot of maybe yes's and maybe no's.

Allen / UKC
Administrator
Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8914

Re: Re-Cast situation question

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Jennings
Dogs A, B, C, and D are struck in and A, B, C are declared treed. Upon scoring the tree, we step away from the tree and Dog D is barking a few hundred yards away. Handler D trees his dog immediately while A, B, C are still on the leash. Is this a leash lock (even though shine time was over and tree was scored)? Or should we have cut loose the second we heard dog D barking


Under current rules; those scored dogs are leash-locked. In 2020, the scored dogs will have the option to recast unless the cast agreed to call time out after scoring Dog D.


The judge is the one in charge and the "instructor" of the cast, so to speak. Yes, the judge could scratch a handler for casting or handling his dog when he was instructed not to.

("KEY WORD .... COULD" So does that mean scratching is not absolute as a punisment ? )

But that instruction to cast or handle should be consistent within the rules. Therefore, such a scratch could be questioned, and in the end, the official ruling should reflect the applicable rule as it relates to the specific situation at hand.

I submit that th "IMPLIED SCRATCH" is too vague a catch all term. It allows for as in any situation a rule to be interpreted that you can be scratched for nearly anything a coniving handler or hunting judge could argue .
or decide to scratch.

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Oh my goodness, talk about a coon hunting lawyer.... It is no wonder Allen doesn't want to post anything on the interweb.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, talk about a coon hunting lawyer.... It is no wonder Allen doesn't want to post anything on the interweb.

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__________________
NOW THE LUNATICS ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM IN WASHINGTON,DC.
MY SILENCE DOES NOT MEAN I AGREE WITH YOU...IT MEANS YOUR LEVEL OF STUPIDITY RENDERS ME SPEECHLESS
I AM NOT ARGUING WITH YOU..I AM JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY I AM RIGHT
TRUTH IS TREASON IN AN EMPIRE OF LIES...G. Orwell
DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU...G. Carlin
ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE WORK RELENTLESSLY TO CENSOR THOSE WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH...Ron DeSantis

houndsound

houndsound, as a non nite hunter, I assure you, my head is spinning too!