UKC Forums - How do you score this

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-- How do you score this (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928536922)

Posted by Coby Wright on 02-26-2021 06:42 AM:

Re: Ur not understanding

quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Donahue
What I’m trying to say. Your dog strikes other three guys don’t want u getting first strike. Bam ur minused

You don't even need all three just the judge and one other is all it takes. You ask for vote and 2-2 vote doesn't override judge. You question it and the master of hounds will side with the judge nearly every time citing it's a judgment call.

UKC should be more clear on how they want these rules applied.

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Posted by Bob Hennessey on 02-26-2021 04:10 PM:

Re: Re: Ur not understanding

quote:
Originally posted by Coby Wright
You don't even need all three just the judge and one other is all it takes. You ask for vote and 2-2 vote doesn't override judge. You question it and the master of hounds will side with the judge nearly every time citing it's a judgment call.

UKC should be more clear on how they want these rules applied.

Read rule 2B You need 3 votes to minus dog. a 2 to2 vote is results in points being deleted using a hunting judge.
Page 50. 2b, dog(s) declared struck and determined to be babbling shall be minused on strike. if there is any question when a hunting judge is use, the cast must vote immediately. it takes a majority of the cast to vote to minus a tied vote results in deleted strike points.

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Posted by tpettit on 02-26-2021 05:18 PM:

3. Each handler must vote, or their dog will be
scratched. It takes a majority vote to overturn
judge’s decision. Any handler that is not
satisfied with the outcome retains the right
to place a question mark (?) on the card and
present his question to the MOH/panel.
Page 56.

6. Majority of cast rules. Each handler must vote or their
dog will be scratched. If majority decision is not reached,
the call stands as it was scored by the Judge. Any handler
that is not satisfied with the majority of cast decision
retains the right to place a question mark (?) on the card
and present his question to the MOH/HD Panel.
Page 60.

These are on judgment calls and not on scoring situations such as circle or minus of a tree.

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Posted by Bob Hennessey on 02-26-2021 06:21 PM:

On babbling, Page 50 2 b ,with hunting judge 2 to 2 tie doesn't matter what the judge votes it's a tie. Delete.

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Ignorance: the lack of knowledge, education, etc.
Stupidity: lacking normal intelligence.
Intelligence: the ability to learn or understand.
You can't fix STUPID!

Posted by tpettit on 02-26-2021 07:47 PM:

I see your rule. I pulled mine from the section of questioning a judge. Seems to be a conflict.

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Posted by Tim Green on 02-27-2021 05:23 PM:

I’d like to see the strike changed to the following and will eliminate the babbling advantage.

1. All strikes equal 25 points
2. A dog must be struck before treed as it is now.

The 25 points will still impact the score because of a slick or quitting a track etc, but won’t give the babbler an advantage at cut. It would also come into play if a dog is shut out on a tree as it is now.

We all can agree that dogs tend to be split in most casts today and those are obviously different tracks, so one track shouldn’t be any more important than the other.

This puts more importance on the treeing of a coon, which is what we are trying to do anyway.

Just my opinion.

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Retired Air Force 24+ years
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Posted by benderb4 on 02-27-2021 09:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Green
I’d like to see the strike changed to the following and will eliminate the babbling advantage.

1. All strikes equal 25 points
2. A dog must be struck before treed as it is now.

The 25 points will still impact the score because of a slick or quitting a track etc, but won’t give the babbler an advantage at cut. It would also come into play if a dog is shut out on a tree as it is now.

We all can agree that dogs tend to be split in most casts today and those are obviously different tracks, so one track shouldn’t be any more important than the other.

This puts more importance on the treeing of a coon, which is what we are trying to do anyway.

Just my opinion.

Yeah, but the dog that hunts hard, can wind a coon the others can't smell has a knack of knowing where to find a coon gets penalized by lumping it's ability in with a bunch of 1000 yard pop 'em up can't smell a track no how , NO NOSE dogs.
WHY DO YOU GUYS INSIST ON WANTING TO BELITTLE A DOGS ABILITY TO SMELL A TRACK BETTER THEN OTHERS ??
Take away that track and nose ability on a cast and equalize it with the hot nosed dogs???
AFRAID OF THEM???

So In the mean time then let's take the tree back to 100 points too!!! BECAUSE THAT EXTRA 25 POINTS "IS" THE HOT NOSED DOGS ATVANTAGE !!!

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Posted by Tim Green on 02-27-2021 09:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by benderb4
Yeah, but the dog that hunts hard, can wind a coon the others can't smell has a knack of knowing where to find a coon gets penalized by lumping it's ability in with a bunch of 1000 yard pop 'em up can't smell a track no how , NO NOSE dogs.
WHY DO YOU GUYS INSIST ON WANTING TO BELITTLE A DOGS ABILITY TO SMELL A TRACK BETTER THEN OTHERS ??
Take away that track and nose ability on a cast and equalize it with the hot nosed dogs???
AFRAID OF THEM???

So In the mean time then let's take the tree back to 100 points too!!! BECAUSE THAT EXTRA 25 POINTS "IS" THE HOT NOSED DOGS ATVANTAGE !!!

Don’t lump me into the “YOU GUYS”. I’m not afraid of any of them...that’s why I have 3 dogs in the top 25 Texas state race including the #1 dog once all her money is added. .I could honestly care less because whether mine strike from the tail gate....they’ll have a coon. We could count coons if you want and mine will still put it on most out there.

I only recommended the above to solve the issue.

__________________
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Retired Air Force 24+ years
Disabled Veteran

Posted by benderb4 on 02-28-2021 12:37 AM:

No not you in particular. YOU BROUGHT UP THE EQUAL 25 TRACK POINTS .
Just aggravates me everybody wanting to penalize a dogs tracking ability.
WE ARE HUNTING HOUNDS not hot nosed cur dogs

YOUR QUOTE.................
I’d like to see the strike changed to the following and will eliminate the babbling advantage.

1. All strikes equal 25 points
SUGGESTION

ADVANTAGE TREE DOG... FORGET TRACKING and make them EQUAL????
WRONG,WRONG, WRONG
And you just referenced it and I said in a previous post
A first tree dog will beat a first strike dog ALL NIGHT EVERY NIGHT because they already have the 25 point advantage
So once again what are GUYS AFRAID OF?

MY OPINION!!!

Way to fix it is back to strike when they open ...NO 1 MINUTE COURTESY ON EACH DUMP....GONE

Posted by benderb4 on 02-28-2021 12:45 AM:

While I am thinking about it. Everyone talks about the babblers
Nobody griping about slick tree dogs

What about those TOO MUCH tree power that slick trees all night and gets saved by the thick leafy trees?
How shall we penalize them?

Cast walks to two, three trees scored can't prove they are slick but rest of cast just knows that tree is slick can't prove it but lets minus them any way because they have just too much tree and we are wasting our time walking to non plus trees??

Sounds stupid doesn't it?

"MINUS" that FIRST TREE dog by "OPINION" for getting treed too quick.

"MINUS" that FIRST STRIKE dog by "OPINION" for getting struck too quick

Posted by Rip on 02-28-2021 01:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by benderb4

Way to fix it is back to strike when they open ...NO 1 MINUTE COURTESY ON EACH DUMP....GONE

I agree with this part. I have never in all my years of hunting, seen a dog unjustly minused for babbling. Not one single time.

I have seen a babbler get away with it consistently because we give them a minute to get in there deep enough to create doubt. That and the fact that at least one or two others in the cast will join in.........

Remove the minute. Let's make them accountable for opening their mouths while they are still close enough to shine a light on them and prove they are babbling.

It won't solve everything but it will cut down on the babbling quite a bit.

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Posted by jawscardodger on 02-28-2021 01:55 AM:

The min has nothing to do with babbling

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Posted by Rip on 02-28-2021 01:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jawscardodger
The min has nothing to do with babbling

You are correct but it DOES allow babblers to get away with it and it allows dogs to be so far away as to make it very difficult to judge babbling.

That is the problem.

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Posted by jawscardodger on 02-28-2021 02:13 AM:

How? if they are barking under the min and they keep barking and their struck before or afther the min it doesn't matter there either babbing or there not.Ive seen lots of times when one dog gets excited and barks when you cut them and they all may a few barks then everyone would have to strike there dog and no one is taking any minus even tho there all babbling

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Posted by Rip on 02-28-2021 02:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jawscardodger
How? if they are barking under the min and they keep barking and their struck before or afther the min it doesn't matter there either babbing or there not.Ive seen lots of times when one dog gets excited and barks when you cut them and they all may a few barks then everyone would have to strike there dog and no one is taking any minus even tho there all babbling

By the time the minute is up they strike but they are so far in there you can't really tell if they may have struck something or not.

The old way they barked 3 times they had to call them struck (first drop excluded). You can shine a light on them and give them the minus they deserve for babbling because they ain't got out of the light yet because they are responsible for opening their mouth at that time not a minute later. It's hard to argue when you are looking at the babbling idiot right there in front of you. Back then they took their minus cause we could see them.

That's how the minute protects a babbler. They are allowed to babble for a minute. After the minute they must be struck on or before the third bark but heck now they are 200 yards away. Far enough away to place doubt in a judges mind if they are babling or not. Far enough away to get away with it.

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Posted by ov_blues on 02-28-2021 04:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jawscardodger
How? if they are barking under the min and they keep barking and their struck before or afther the min it doesn't matter there either babbing or there not.Ive seen lots of times when one dog gets excited and barks when you cut them and they all may a few barks then everyone would have to strike there dog and no one is taking any minus even tho there all babbling

That is how I remember things going after the first drop when the minute grace period was only on the first dump. The old babbling rule didn’t work so they changed it, then changed it again. Bottom line is babblers get away with babbling more times than not.

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Posted by Tim Green on 02-28-2021 05:51 AM:

Is there a chance that there is more than one track at a location like multiple trees? Somehow there is only one set of strike points though.

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Retired Air Force 24+ years
Disabled Veteran

Posted by Sonny Phipps on 02-28-2021 12:00 PM:

I’m all about a “No Grace Period” . First cut and every time after that, strike them on or before 3 rd bark. How did we do it before? We trained our dogs not to babble off the chain. Now many just let them get away with it because of the min rule.

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