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-- Hybrid vigor ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928524958)

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why should they be healthier or less prone to illness? Canine illnesses are in canines. I don't know of any walker specific or bluetick specific illnesses. You might be breeding illness into your walker line from the blueticks. There is no reason to believe that the pups would be healthier than if you outcrossed to another line within the walker breed.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

If I owned a good line of walkers that needed a shot of new blood I would look to another strain of walker to help my bloodline out...

Second choice would be a different breed of hound that has similarities and it would probably be Big Country...

Next choice probably a dog from a long line of coon dogs...the Plott hound...while similar in hunting style this breed comes from Germany so there should be more diversification...

The choice between English pointer or German short hair...that is a no brainer...it would be the German short hair...the breed is measured against a working and hunting standard and not on competition wins...

IMO...there should be enough similarities in the dog used for outcrossing that there should be consistency in the offspring produced...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Diversity in the mutt gene pool...

When I was a kid all my dogs were mutts that were thrown away way out in the country and they just showed up at our front porch...some I kept and others my dad moved them on...every one I hunted made excellent hunting dogs...most of what they ate daily was what we caught...if I couldn’t hunt for a few days they went on their own... I think they fit in the pack because they had a great incentive...don’t catch...don’t eat

We never wormed nor vaccinated the pups or dogs...never even took a dog to the vet...

When I got my first real job I bought a large type Airedale...a man needed to get rid of him ASAP...I think he paid 350 delivered...that was a lot of money nearly 50 years ago...I paid 50 bucks and he was a great looking pup out of Quachita kennels in Mena, Arkansas...I had him for a month and he got pretty sick...my first time to take a pup to the vet...he was diagnosed with distemper and he passed away...after a little research I found out that purebreds pups run the risk of dying from illness or worms...more so than mutts because their genes are not as diversified...the genes not as diverse is why redbones look like redbones and walkers look like walkers etc...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

I think Tar wants a bluetick and don't wanta come out and say it.

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Donald Bergeron

quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
I think Tar wants a bluetick and don't wanta come out and say it.

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Re: Big country

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Originally posted by osimpson4
I haven't got the chance to hunt with him yet, but I seen Steve a couple months ago and we talked about him over supper one night. By the way he described he was a sure enough coondog with all the coin sense in the world. Said he would tree them close or far, in front of or behind a dog , whatever it took. And he always seems to know where to go find one. I'm kinda thinking about a crossbred one myself lol. [/


Who in their right mind want a straight running deep and alone when they can strive to have one like big country...I say cull them all and breed to the big country standard...a real coon dog or hunting dog for that matter...The quote is worth repeating...


Said he would tree them close or far, in front of or behind a dog , whatever it took. And he always seems to know where to go find one. I'm kinda thinking about a crossbred one myself lol. [/B]

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
I don’t know why I can’t get that blue dog off my mind

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Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

Yes, admitting that you have a problem is the first step. The next step is to sell your walkers and get a couple of blueticks.

I'm no breeder. Have only raised a few litters of beagles and coon hounds.

I probably don't know 1/4 of what many of you do about genetics and breeding hounds. My observations over the last 40+ years of owning and training hounds are likely not in the same league as many of you. It seems to me the best that the average amongst us can do is know exactly what we want in a hound and find someone who has or raises what we like. Wether we buy it as a fully broke and seasoned hound or a pup that comes from parents who came from parents and grandparents that were the type that fit what we like. Forget the titles as they mean little at the end of the day for the majority of "hunters" who are just looking to walk to the woods with a consistent hound that can account for its game.

Sadly, many or perhaps most who raise a litter are as concerned or even more concerned with having titled parents for fear of not being able to sell the pups without a pedigree laced with a titled ancestry. Somehow many of us seem to think that if the hound we're going to breed to or buy a pup from has to come from a few hundred miles away if it's going to be any good. In my opinion way to many breedings happen with very little or no first hand knowledge of what the hounds behind what they're breeding to or buying a pup from are.

I think my best chance for getting a decent hound comes from parentage that reflects a heritage of reproducing above average progeny. It seems to me that this is often where those once in a life time hounds arise from. And they just may be closer to home than we imagine they might be!😉

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Dan

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Completely out of the breed gives you a completely different gene pool still is a hound but no relatives multiple 5 or 6 times like the walkers.


Should also be healthier less prone to illness.


Tar

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don't think there is much hybrid vigor between our hounds with exception of some plotts.

Look how much Tennessee Lead (Black & Tan colored hound) and other fox hounds had an affect on our coon hounds today. Almost any trait you see in a Walker you can find in a Bluetick, English, B&T, Redbone, and vise-versa. Face it most of our breeds come from the same or nearly same foundation stock.

Line breeding and in-breeding are tools for increasing likeness. The scientific term is homozygous. Outcrossing is breeding to unrelated lines increasing gene variation. Hybrid vigor is a result of increasing gene variation. The scientific term is heterzygous. The result of increasing variation is often above average offspring who can not reproduce their likeness. You are basically re-shuffling the deck with each outcross.

The thing to remember is breeding schemes are tools. No tools is the new end all of tools. All tools have have good and bad to them. It doesn't matter which tools we use as long as we as breeders are responsible for what we reproduce.

Larry you wrote almost the same thing on here 15 years ago in a discussion the same as this one. I have learned a lot from your post over the years. I know one thing. I have lost my Hybrid Vigor. I am waiting for someone to post on how to find it again, once it is lost.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
don't think there is much hybrid vigor between our hounds with exception of some plotts.

Look how much Tennessee Lead (Black & Tan colored hound) and other fox hounds had an affect on our coon hounds today. Almost any trait you see in a Walker you can find in a Bluetick, English, B&T, Redbone, and vise-versa. Face it most of our breeds come from the same or nearly same foundation stock.

Line breeding and in-breeding are tools for increasing likeness. The scientific term is homozygous. Outcrossing is breeding to unrelated lines increasing gene variation. Hybrid vigor is a result of increasing gene variation. The scientific term is heterzygous. The result of increasing variation is often above average offspring who can not reproduce their likeness. You are basically re-shuffling the deck with each outcross.
The thing to remember is breeding schemes are tools. No tools is the new end all of tools. All tools have have good and bad to them. It doesn't matter which tools we use as long as we as breeders are responsible for what we reproduce.

Larry you wrote almost the same thing on here 15 years ago in a discussion the same as this one. I have learned a lot from your post over the years. I know one thing. I have lost my Hybrid Vigor. I am waiting for someone to post on how to find it again, once it is lost.

What makes people think about Hybrid Vigor. Because what they have isn't working. The other thing that makes hound people think it works. Is when they run into it in a coonhound. If the truth be told which it never is. A lot of the genetics in the dog claimed to be a full hound is false. Lots of Bird Dog genetics are in the coonhounds in your back yard.

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Tar I think you are misinformed again. Don't think I ever raised over one generation of hounds. I probably haven't raised over a dozen litters of pups in 50 years and I usually give most away and sure haven't found any I kept worth breeding.

Now I have purchased many pups over the years. Mainly because I could not afford to buy a trained dog. I always purchased pups off of proven winners with the best bloodlines the Walkers had to offer.

The Blue Dog keeps coming up in discussion just as Bad Habit kept coming up many years ago. What they have in common is John Strickland. Someone with the determination to find and push a nice hound. Soon as we see a nice hound everyone tries to figure out how to breed one. John didn't beed one. He found one to hunt.

Here is the thing. Most people trying to breed one, if they were given a blank check to go buy a top hound that could tree coon on a consistent basis. They would fail at that task. So my question is. If you don't know enough about hounds to find one. What makes you think you know enough about hounds to breed one. Most people don't. I sure don't and I have been a student of this sport for 50 years. Look at the interview Russ Bellar did with Alan a year or so ago. He spoke of a number of world champion females he has bred. None has produced a World Champion. We all want one but getting what you want in the coonhound world will disappoint you. If you're Honest with the results.

Anyone can breed a uniform strain of hounds. But there is a big difference in UNIFORM and PRODUCTIVE.

I think Kevin Cable is doing an excellent breeding, promoting and wining with what he has bred.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Tar I think you are misinformed again. Don't think I ever raised over one generation of hounds. I probably haven't raised over a dozen litters of pups in 50 years and I usually give most away and sure haven't found any I kept worth breeding.

Now I have purchased many pups over the years. Mainly because I could not afford to buy a trained dog. I always purchased pups off of proven winners with the best bloodlines the Walkers had to offer.

The Blue Dog keeps coming up in discussion just as Bad Habit kept coming up many years ago. What they have in common is John Strickland. Someone with the determination to find and push a nice hound. Soon as we see a nice hound everyone tries to figure out how to breed one. John didn't beed one. He found one to hunt.

Here is the thing. Most people trying to breed one, if they were given a blank check to go buy a top hound that could tree coon on a consistent basis. They would fail at that task. So my question is. If you don't know enough about hounds to find one. What makes you think you know enough about hounds to breed one. Most people don't. I sure don't and I have been a student of this sport for 50 years. Look at the interview Russ Bellar did with Alan a year or so ago. He spoke of a number of world champion females he has bred. None has produced a World Champion. We all want one but getting what you want in the coonhound world will disappoint you. If you're Honest with the results.

Anyone can breed a uniform strain of hounds. But there is a big difference in UNIFORM and PRODUCTIVE.

I think Kevin Cable is doing an excellent breeding, promoting and wining with what he has bred.

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Now your right about your description. Why I think we confuse Hybrid Vigor with just sound breeding has a lot to do with how Bad Habit was bred. He was a Cross between the Harry Line of dogs and the Sackett Jr line of dogs.
I remember it well and still today think about how he was bred. I may never make the cross but I have a male here this is a grandson of Sackett jr. His purpose of being here is to maybe cross one day to my Drop Dead female. The treeing genetic dog cross to the running/trailing genetic dog cross.

Back on the Hybrid Vigor subject. The cross that produced Bad Habit may appear to be one that Hybrid Vigor may be found in the offspring. But as Larry A. mentioned. The true meaning of Hybrid Vigor probably isn't possible within the genetics of our hounds because of their relationship.

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"Boss Lights"

Tarbaby, if your current breeding plan isn't working then you should try something different. It is a smart move on your part. So what have you been doing in the past that didn't work for you? What was your breeding plan/strategy that didn't work?

I have been trying for 25 years to produce nice pups. I have tried breeding "coondog to coondog". I have tried breeding "winner to winner". I even tried breeding a nice Redbone female to Million $ Elmo. I have tried them all but none of them alone worked for me. I have found that I have better success by combining all of the breeding practices together. It is a lot more dificult but works better in the end.
But a big problem with breeding competition dogs is that the standard keeps changing. We have gone from track dogs to tree dogs. We have gone from accuracy to speed to accuracy. We have gone from pack dogs to independent dogs. We have gone from close hunters to deep hunters. About the time that you get your traits fixed, the standard changes.
Good luck with your crossbreeding but that is what it is, not "hybrid vigor". You are X breeding to get desired traits. You could care less about hybrid vigor.

My dogs represent themselves well with whom I draw. But you and I brouther have the same problem we have owned and hunted with ones that night in night out if you put them in coons they just didn’t have bad nights. They were not what I call one dimesional where they only excelled at one thing not well rounded.



I am going to a completely different gene pool completely different breed to get hybrid vigor.


I got tired blood lol.


Tar

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Richard I probably agree with your post here more so than any I have read. The thing I have an issue with, is the trap many people that breed their own line of hounds fall into. Is they seem to get kennel blind. Just human nature and a mans ego to do that.

I think Timothy Ball knew the secret to success. I think many men that I visited when I was younger around the country had the key to success. Because they sure had a lot of hounds at their place. Now let me define success. Being know for a pup or pups that comes from a cross that you produced.

The secret those men knew is not Hybrid Vigor. And not a study of genetics and a brain full of knowledge. The secret is in the numbers of hounds they could produce that had basic sound genetics behind them. Timothy Ball was a master at marketing and he knew numbers was the name of the game. For years 10% of offspring titled got you known as a world famous breeder when actually 10% is not anything to be proud of. Those numbers were accomplished by producing a large quantity of pups.

T Ball understood marketing but knew number of pup counted, also many men we know as the leaders in the sport had numerous females at their place and bred and bred them to produce numbers. Knowing numbers were needed for that 10% to be noticed. The 10% were talked about and the 90% were just used by others to breed and breed trying to get enough pups for their 10% to be recognized.

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"Boss Lights"

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Tar the dreams of something different is what has kept men young in the coon hound world. Good Luck, but the truth is. Years later you wake up from the dreams and then doze back to sleep only to dream again.

Tar let me poke you and remind you of something. How many times in a night hunt over the years have you been beat by a dog that wouldn't hunt but was walked over a hot coon because it was following the cast of men around. Remember that feeling of loosing to that worthless hound when you want them hunting close again.

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Question

If an outcross was made that produced the desired results and the offspring were crossed back to purebred dogs of one of the breeds used would the line ever be registered as that breed or remain Xbreed dog from then on?

I don’t know about mental traits but as for physical and health traits cross breeding livestock raises hybrid vigor. Three way crosses gets the optimum. This was taught in animal science years ago.

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
My dogs represent themselves well with whom I draw. But you and I brouther have the same problem we have owned and hunted with ones that night in night out if you put them in coons they just didn’t have bad nights. They were not what I call one dimesional where they only excelled at one thing not well rounded.
I am going to a completely different gene pool completely different breed to get hybrid vigor.

I got tired blood lol.
Tar

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Richard a D- is a passing grade but strait A’s gets you a scholarship you know what I mean Vern ?



Tarbaby

Yeah Vern, I know what'cha mean. I remember when I got an academic sholarship to UT. But I really don't know what that has to do with X breeding coonhounds. But then I seldom comprehend what you are trying to say. Sometimes I think that we are speaking a different language.

Somewhat by accident I have an interesting experiment right now. I have an 11 month old pup out of Cheyennes Shack dog and a Trackman/Rat Attack female. This pup is from the second litter. First litter was an outstanding cross. This pup is a natural tree dog and is 11 months old. Hard Hard tree dog. Lots of energy. Don't really like his mouth but you can sure hear it. Going to be a nice dog. I also have a freebie dog here. Good looking walker dog. 13 months old. No idea of his breeding. One of those left at the mother-in-laws house deals. This pup has been in the woods 4 times and I really like what I see. Better mouth. Wants to run a track and has treed a little. Will cover a lot of ground. But he's on the back burner because I've been putting my time in the Shack pup. It will be interesting to see which makes the best dog. Probably will depend on how much time I invest in them. Will never know what the breeding is on the second pup. Oh and if Hybrid Vigor has anything to do with energy and go, they both must have it, lol.

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Tom Wood