UKC Forums - Can someone explain WHY all the changes.

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-- Can someone explain WHY all the changes. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928522058)

Posted by yadkintar on 09-10-2019 01:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Maybe now they can start winning.

Well your win average wasent to good by the old rules maybe the new ones will change you luck.

Tarbaby

Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-10-2019 01:55 PM:

Tarbaby, that is because I am not that good. I guess that I am not "competitive" enough anymore. Maybe I should become a MOH so that I would have an excuse to just sit in the clubhouse.
I realized that I was getting too old to keep up in the hunts several years ago so I became a breeder. I think that my pup "averages" are doing OK.

Posted by yadkintar on 09-10-2019 02:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Tarbaby, that is because I am not that good. I guess that I am not "competitive" enough. Maybe I should just become a MOH so that I would have an excuse to just sit in the clubhouse.

Neh you wouldn’t like it I don’t. Buuuuuut I went back and looked and it says in November they will clarify things. Now because I have to stay up on the rules the way the new one is wrote one word either way can change things on the tree if your dog is past the 3 minutes either before or after the judge gets there it can only get minused 25 because the countdown took care of that. On the strike it will depend on what strike the dog you covered has if he has 50 strike you would only get 25 minus for total of 50 minus. I think the simple thing would be just to delete your strike points just like you do for going back to a tree. Now on off game I think they deserve minus both ways because they can smell that and have plenty of time to get the heck out of dodge.

Tarbaby

Posted by Toad Hill on 09-10-2019 02:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by stevwallace
Does anyone know? Or did it evolve at the meeting? Is there a list of the breed reps and how they voted? Only seen one guy on here say he was there and that he was only filling in???

There was Two guys actually that spoke up on that post.

The "Who's Who" is a "Big Secret" dont be fooled into thinking otherwise.

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 09-10-2019 02:56 PM:

Rule changes

It’s hard enough to keep up especially with the grey areas . Just when you think you have gotten everything and know it all something changes again . Maybe it’s good maybe it isn’t . That’s why I choose not to be a MOH no more .

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-10-2019 03:17 PM:

Let's see if I understand this correctly Tarbaby, we are now going to minus a dog's strike for being too slow to get treed on a coon? And then we are going to give it next available tree and minus that too? Oh my goodness, a dog will have to be awfully fast, a good cover dog or independent to a fault to be a comp dog.

Now what will happen to the dog that comes into a tree after the judge arrives? I don't see anywhere that they addressed that. Will they get a free pass?

Posted by yadkintar on 09-10-2019 03:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Let's see if I understand this correctly Tarbaby, we are now going to minus a dog's strike for being too slow to get treed on a coon? And then we are going to give it next available tree and minus that too? Oh my goodness, a dog will have to be awfully fast, a good cover dog or independent to a fault to be a comp dog.

Now what will happen to the dog that comes into a tree after the judge arrives? I don't see anywhere that they addressed that. Will they get a free pass?

Dang Richard go get your stop watch and hit it and watch how long 3 minutes is it’s way long enough for a dog to get there considering a human can run a 4 minute mile. Buuuuuuuuut like I said before or after the judge arrives makes no difference to me I think a dog that is after the 3 minutes should just get a delete except on off game. Till everybody gets used to the new rules it’s a little to much to quick considering a lot of ukc hunters have never hunted in a $$$ hunt.

Posted by joey on 09-10-2019 03:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Yep nobody wanted to talk about that. They couldn't win so they were able to change the rules to fit their dog.

Those guys winning or not winning really doesn't have anything to do with the rules. They still will not win, its because most of them pack a cast winning dog that scores on one maybe 2 coon if they are lucky. The best of them are 70% cast winners on their best week and that has to land on the week of the hunt. They are made for elimination style hunts. Most major UKC hunts are a high scoring format. Winning a major UKC hunt has more to do with the right dog getting paired up with the right guide. There could be WAY better dogs on the other cast that went to a set of woods that you hunt all night to tree a couple. Unless a hunt is a elimination hunt its not designed to find the best dog. Regardless of the rules.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-10-2019 03:53 PM:

I hunted in a PKC hunt once. Their countdown rule seemed a lot more fair than UKC's new countdown/3 min cut off/ assigning next tree and minusing rule. PKC rules don't minus a dog for being at or coming into a slick, circle or off game tree either. I wonder how many hunters will leave UKC and start hunting PKC hunts now? Wouldn't that be a switch? In trying to attract more PKC hunters, UKC might be running off their own customer base. I guess that would be an "unintended consequence".

Posted by yadkintar on 09-10-2019 03:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I hunted in a PKC hunt once. Their countdown rule seemed a lot more fair than UKC's new countdown/3 min cut off/ assigning next tree and minusing rule. PKC rules don't minus a dog for being at or coming into a slick, circle or off game tree either. I wonder how many hunters will leave UKC and start hunting PKC hunts now? Wouldn't that be a switch? In trying to attract more PKC hunters, UKC might be running off their own customer base. I guess that would be an "unintended consequence".

What is it pain in the rump month for you ?

Tarbaby

Posted by joey on 09-10-2019 04:16 PM:

Moving tree time to 3 min and giving a dog minus for getting there after the three was not a smart move. But! UKC has the power to veto. They have a lot going on with AO, then the zones and finals. I think that once they set down and put this all together they will be able to head off anything that's going to cause a problem.

Posted by yadkintar on 09-10-2019 10:46 PM:

In the words of a famous ukc leader :

Tar it’s an open book test you big dummy the answers are right there !!!

You guys got a cheat sheet of what has and has not worked in the past. You got to realize you got hunt directors and moh that never hunted in a $$$ hunt either.

Make it simple.

Tar

Posted by Preacher Tom on 09-10-2019 11:42 PM:

Don't competition hunt anymore so I really have no say in any of this but the one change that I think can/does do a disservice to a coon dog is the minus for coming in late. The case in point is say my dog is treed with a coon and another dog is treed 70 yards away. We score my coon and while we head to the other I turn my dog loose ( might be a poor decision on my part) and my dog covers that dog who also has a coon. Is it really fair to a coon treeing dog to minus him for treeing where a coon is. You might say he shouldn't cover but by what thought process unless you really want a man made loner. I am fully in favor of no points for a late dog but to minus seems out of place. Example: My dog has several times treed a coon and when I sent him from that coon he immediately went from 50 to 100 yards and treed another. No barks on the ground and he is open. I believe he knew where the other coon was when he treed the first. So the dog getting minused was just treeing a coon he knew was there. This might never come up because I suppose you would never recast your dog with another treed close. Interested to see what the rules are exactly when finalized. No leash lock to me is the best thing they did.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 09-11-2019 12:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Moving tree time to 3 min and giving a dog minus for getting there after the three was not a smart move. But! UKC has the power to veto. They have a lot going on with AO, then the zones and finals. I think that once they set down and put this all together they will be able to head off anything that's going to cause a problem.

When voting on changes they really don't know what's going to pass and not going to. The countdown and no leash lock work fine hand in hand and even the shorter tree time. The kicker to the whole thing is the assigning next available points on coon. Our personal opinion is that these trees should be deleted unless off game and to keep true to UKC policy assign next available (could be as much as 75 or as little 25 just like always) or scratch in champions casts. This would take the turning loose to treed dogs who's trees are closed out of the equation unless they covered on off game.
In short ditch the next available rule that passed on coon and maybe even slicks just leave in off game to stay true to the roots. it would save making a bunch of complicated rules for when to turn loose after scoring trees wouldn't matter if a dog covered on a closed tree that could be as close as the next tree over and keeps things incredibly simple for judges, handlers and removes the nightmare for MOH and panels that will be coming. We are at a crossroads to do things right right now and not require a bunch more changes when it doesn't work as planned.
JOHO

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Posted by Mike McCool on 09-11-2019 12:56 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Richard not meaning this wrong anybody should go where they like. But if you only go to exclusive breed hunts or major hunts it paints a different picture. These young guys around here hunt in $$$ hunts as high as 4 nights a week. Ukc wants to utilize some of that costumer base.

how many of those 4 dogs showing up in pkc are you going to get robert and 2 of them probably are babblers lol

Tar

Posted by yadkintar on 09-11-2019 01:03 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Mike McCool

Mike remember back in the day those Texas tree banging bluticks ? 100 strike back a dog on a tree a 4:59 all night long lol. I think this new program will draw them in but the right hunts ( one hour double header minie slams ) will draw the older guys back.

Tar

Posted by Nathan Phenix on 09-11-2019 02:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
When voting on changes they really don't know what's going to pass and not going to. The countdown and no leash lock work fine hand in hand and even the shorter tree time. The kicker to the whole thing is the assigning next available points on coon. Our personal opinion is that these trees should be deleted unless off game and to keep true to UKC policy assign next available (could be as much as 75 or as little 25 just like always) or scratch in champions casts. This would take the turning loose to treed dogs who's trees are closed out of the equation unless they covered on off game.
In short ditch the next available rule that passed on coon and maybe even slicks just leave in off game to stay true to the roots. it would save making a bunch of complicated rules for when to turn loose after scoring trees wouldn't matter if a dog covered on a closed tree that could be as close as the next tree over and keeps things incredibly simple for judges, handlers and removes the nightmare for MOH and panels that will be coming. We are at a crossroads to do things right right now and not require a bunch more changes when it doesn't work as planned.
JOHO

This is the only rule that has caused a bunch of back lash. I agree with what is suggested here and I believe it would please most everyone and help keep things simple. Besides this assigning next tree I am excited about rule changes. This rule would really hurt the new people beginning to comp hunt. Hope UKC is listening.

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Posted by berger on 09-11-2019 04:15 AM:

Re: Can someone explain WHY all the changes.

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
This is not about if the rule changes are right or wrong. This is not about if you and I like them or we don't.

I am just very curious what happen to allow all these changes to happen in one year.

I personally thought that this year we would have a small change or two. But if nothing changed, that wouldn't have surprised me.

Well I did get surprised. So what happen to allow all these changes.

Was it a change in the format on how the rules are voted on. Is it a complete changing of the guard when it comes on who votes. Was it held late a night when the old people had fell to sleep? Something happed to the way the rules changes were handled in the past. Any ideas on what it was?

Bruce I will give you my opinion and that is all it is. There was no change in format on how the rules were voted on. But talking to some at UKC they did notice that at UKC hunts and even at the bigger hunts the participation was more on the older side. When they looked across the isle they Noticed there are a lot of 20 to 40yr old's competing in the hunts just not in their hunts. So they wanted changes and I believe the breed reps could feel that and hear that changes were needed to keep growing. Now the breed reps supposedly didn't know how others were voting so I think some voted for multiple changes just so there would be changes one way or the other. Here is the reason I say UKC should have the final say in what changes they will implement. The idea is to get more people hunting UKC not less they should be able to Veto any change that could hurt participation at the local clubs and at their national hunts. Let's say they can't add a rule that did not pass but they could Veto a rule that did.

Now if Proposal's 2,8,9,11,13,15 and 17 had only passed this would have been enough to bring in those Younger hunters from the $ hunts.

proposal 5 they could have hunted without, it is just a bonus and it won't scare away the older hunters This one doesn't add or subtract entries just a bonus.

Proposal 1 isn't a bonus it pretty well is same and really doesn't make any difference, there is a negative in the way it was set up and written up in my opinion I just hope the buddy system doesn't get used much on this change.

Proposal 6 Could hurt entries or you might see this eliminate 2hr hunts at the local clubs. As I stated before UKC realized they had a older crowd. This will speed up the hunts and a 2hr hunt some of that older crowd might realize they just can't hunt at that speed for 2hrs. So you might see a lot more 1hr and 90minute hunts to have the participation at the local level. And have smaller crowds at the 2hr national hunts.

Proposal 7, this one blows my mind that there was even 1 yes vote!!!!

Now the reason so many rules passed is because of the BBOA reps from 3yrs ago changed the vote to nay on tree count down after their membership at their annual meeting voted yay by a large majority.

If the count down had passed 3yrs ago you would not have seen all the changes, a few but not near this many. JMHO

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Posted by thomasg on 09-11-2019 10:32 AM:

bruce the rule changes appear to me to be a good fit 60 and 90 minute hunt times ,2 hour hunts just like 3 hour hunts in 10 years will be something only old timers like me talk about ,lol

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 09-11-2019 12:53 PM:

Mr. Berger that is what I was looking for. Thanks for the info.

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Posted by honalieh on 09-12-2019 02:33 AM:

Agreed

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
When voting on changes they really don't know what's going to pass and not going to. The countdown and no leash lock work fine hand in hand and even the shorter tree time. The kicker to the whole thing is the assigning next available points on coon. Our personal opinion is that these trees should be deleted unless off game and to keep true to UKC policy assign next available (could be as much as 75 or as little 25 just like always) or scratch in champions casts. This would take the turning loose to treed dogs who's trees are closed out of the equation unless they covered on off game.
In short ditch the next available rule that passed on coon and maybe even slicks just leave in off game to stay true to the roots. it would save making a bunch of complicated rules for when to turn loose after scoring trees wouldn't matter if a dog covered on a closed tree that could be as close as the next tree over and keeps things incredibly simple for judges, handlers and removes the nightmare for MOH and panels that will be coming. We are at a crossroads to do things right right now and not require a bunch more changes when it doesn't work as planned.
JOHO

This makes perfect sense to me!!! Minusing a dog for treeing a coon doesn't make sense to me (just delete, as you stated). They are supposed to tree coon. But yes, if the dog covers on off game (late or not), it still gets the minus or scratch. They are NOT supposed to tree off-game.

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