UKC Forums - What's your definition of a truly good, open, cold trailing hound?

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-- What's your definition of a truly good, open, cold trailing hound? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928518981)

Posted by Pat Bizich on 06-06-2019 04:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
people,,, who are people? The only 1 that matters is the judge. Now how is he supposed to know your dog? Is that his job?
Yes your dog may well be a honest track dog. Why should the judge decide if your dog is honest or any other dog in the cast is honest.
That is part of the problem with the babbling rule. There is know question about it rules need changed so you and your dog quit having this issue.

PEOPLE .. Judges on nite hunts AND people I have pleasure hunted with at various times.
As to the rule changes to fix???? The only changes I see being argued will HARM and PENALIZE not benefit these type of dogs. Proposals IMO are to benefit hotter nosed dogs.
As you state and I keep arguing ..THE JUDGE does not know my dog and should not be able to minus it on their discretion when they have no earthly idea what a true babbler or tracking dog with a good nose is.
Under the new format on the local circuit . It does not matter anymore if you tree one or ten coon .Just win your cast. The days of needing a high score to get a first place in Reg. or Nt ch casts are over.
WE are hunting hounds not curs. The rules were made to judge the best hounds and penalize unwanted SUCH AS SILENT DOGS .I don't think the original founders would ever have called a good open trailing hound an unwanted fault.

Once again... I say do away with the babbling dog rule entirely. Strike when open and minus when they go silent. Period.

Just for informational purposes here are some of the things I hear with her.,,,,

Your dog is barking on my dogs track….
I really like this one... Your dog is messing with my dogs head, LOL....
What is your dog running.....
She got to be running junk cause my dog isn't opening....
My dog has never failed to open with any dog.What is she doing......
There is no way she could strike a track that fast.....
Her track is going too far to be a coon...….
Her tracks are too long....
A couple guys caught or shocked their dogs believing the track was no good , I did not and she went on to tree the coon and embarrass their owners.
I been told to turn her toward deer in a field . Which I did and she passed...
And I been made to turn loose in a mowed fields 100 yards from the woods to prove she "WAS" loose mouthing..... And she passed those tests every time so far (maybe next time, IDK).

She ranks on my totem pole in the top 2 or 3 best dogs I have owned over my time coon hunting .

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Posted by Dave Richards on 06-06-2019 08:52 PM:

Pat

Just like I said before, those who have not seen such a dog, do not believe believe a dog can do these things. There is a big difference in a dog opening on other dogs tracks and a real closed nosed dog leading the pack, running and treeing coons that other dogs can not even smell. I have seen hundreds of pretty good coonhounds in my 60 plus years of coon Hunting and only 2 dogs that were truly exceptional cold nosed, run in front, coon treeing machines, that showed coons in their trees to prove what they were doing. I guess that I am lucky, as it seems most people have not ever seen one..Lol. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by yadkintar on 06-06-2019 09:09 PM:

Pat does she win all her cast is she a ntch or Grntch ?

Are you going to breed her ?

Tar

Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-06-2019 09:40 PM:

Posted by Pat Bizich on 06-06-2019 11:48 PM:

Does the track always warm up to the point that the other dogs start opening before they tree or does she tree coons at the end of her tracks and the other dogs never open and are just milling around when you get to the tree? Does the track sometimes slow down when the other dogs start opening?

Richard to answer these questions.. First question .It happens both ways . I had one particular one I remember that I hunted with that was a nite champ. Never opened with her. Actually ended up treed on a gulf course tree, Coming across the green guy says I see the coon. We could see his dog was milling and rearing the tree and when we got to the tree it me too tree barked some but not like it really wanted to.
Had another time I remember three dogs never treed with her. One opened a few times they were all there but acted liked they had no idea what was going on.And she came on that tree like a banshee .Blowing the top out hard.
More often they eventually will open with her and finish the tracks with her. But usually after she has went some different distances at times.
And no the tracks do not seem to slow down when the others finally open with her. My recollection is they just continue a seemingly normal track.If nothing else better once she starts getting some help .

Posted by Pat Bizich on 06-07-2019 12:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Pat does she win all her cast is she a ntch or Grntch ?

Are you going to breed her ?

Tar

Here is her story. No excuses ,just facts.She got lymes. If I put her in a nite hunt I get one good hour out of her . She can't take the heat and it seems like that's when it catches up to her.
She absolutely should had been titled ,I take total responsibility for it not happening. My fault.
She could produce an all DUAL GRAND on her family side.So she is no accident with her ability.
Hunts......
!st.. I had 3 first strike and 2 first tree and one second tree . 3 coon scored and it happened . Heat got her.
2nd.. I had 2 first strikes 2 first trees. She was alone on the first one. No other dogs opened or treed with her. Course I got no help to speak of to find the coon.Saw second coon and I had to find it myself. Same story, pretend helpers. Then it happened again. Heat got her.
3rd.. got beat by a cheating no good that I thought was a friend on that hunt that was carrying the score card.
Then I put her in two PKC hunts to prove a point to local guys here. Hey, one hour hunts.
First one she did something she has never done before or since. Backed a dog on an opossum. W.D.
Second one .She went against three dogs.Two were state race contenders and she came out the winner.
LOL ,Guy said he got beat by the black dog mafia.
You see, she is a Black and Tan !!
And her name is Black Dog.

I have been considering possibly running her in some of the one hour hunts. IDK .

I was able to breed her one time because the lymes has messed with her system. She had one female pup . I am hunting it right now .At 8 1/2 years old I have no thought of trying to breed her again. I bred her to get a female pup out of her which I accomplished . I am glad to have it which was the only reason I wanted to breed her to begin with.

Posted by yadkintar on 06-07-2019 12:53 AM:

Reason why I asked is I have a life long friend that ownes part of a $$$$ kc he likes black dogs his female is tops but came down with coondog paralysis and is coming back from it. We both like a dominating track dog. Now my story I have had a lot of above average track dogs because of the bloodline I hunt. But this one litter I raised out of my dual grand yadkin tar deacon dog was above the rest. I bred deacon to a daughter of George majors moves dog and a she was a granddaughter of flatrock thrasher there was three pups grchntch macie ( my grch ntch female I am hunting nows dam ) grntch hell female granny ( my young dogs dam ) and grntch yadkin tar boomer boomer was absolutely a track dog like no other he might strike honest second to last strike but on a cold track he would open the other dogs are trying to figure it out and then three hundred yards out he would open six or so times then when the dogs get to where he last barked he was anouther 300 yards he would have dogs scattered everywhere trying to stay with him sometimes we would get to the tree before they did.

Tar

Posted by Chuck Allen on 06-07-2019 03:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
I hunt quite often with Chuck often and would say his dogs are a little more like the old fashioned dogs we used to hunt. Not everyone would like them but they tree coons and I think Chuck enjoys his dogs as much or more than anyone I know. So he lives by what he just said "hunt the type of dog you like to hunt, nothing else really matters."

Now , Tom you are going to ruin your reputation hunting with a apostate like me. Now if you get tired of that Big Beagle of yours, You could park him at my house , Just between friends , ya , know depression Era prices and all. On a serious note I enjoyed our hunt Tuesday night , humid has heck , not our best hunt ever for sure , but it was not bad either so far on our bad nights the few we have had , we can't even tree a possum or get a good deer race going. LOL

__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

Posted by Chuck Allen on 06-07-2019 03:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
I hunt quite often with Chuck often and would say his dogs are a little more like the old fashioned dogs we used to hunt. Not everyone would like them but they tree coons and I think Chuck enjoys his dogs as much or more than anyone I know. So he lives by what he just said "hunt the type of dog you like to hunt, nothing else really matters."

__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

Posted by Preacher Tom on 06-07-2019 03:44 AM:

Chuck if we could have gotten a couple of coon to look at us we would have thought it was a good night. Just too grown up and leafy. But I enjoyed every minute of it.

__________________
Tom Wood

Posted by Dave Richards on 06-08-2019 01:14 AM:

Chuck Tom

You guys sound like my kind of coonhunter, men who like the sport and each other's companionship. I wish you were closer, I know I would enjoy hunting with you guys. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by Preacher Tom on 06-08-2019 02:22 AM:

Dave your welcome anytime. Got 2 extra bedrooms.

__________________
Tom Wood

Posted by Dave Richards on 06-08-2019 02:43 AM:

Mr, Tom

Thanks for the invite, it's really hard for me to get away these days with the horses and animals to tend too. I might be able to swing it some time. I honestly would consider it a privilege to hunt with you guys. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by Gmccall on 06-08-2019 12:33 PM:

I think a lot of people are confusing cold nose with no nose. Most dogs I see that open on tracks but can't seem move them, either can't smell good enough to move it or don't have the brains to move it . That's the reason you see so many so- called den trees . I hunted the same strain for several decades , most of the dogs are one way track dogs with good speed when we get one that's not it goes to the cull pile. That's how you fix the problem!

Posted by oldsouth123 on 06-08-2019 03:30 PM:

cold nose

I love it when you've been standing out there awhile listening to one standing on his head going around in circles and they're bragging about his great cold nose.It only makes sense if he can smell it good enough to strike it ,it should get better the longer he follows it ,not stay the same or get worse.I love to hear the guys with the cold nosed dogs complaining about their dog doing all the work and then the hot nosed dog coming and stealing the first tree.If your dog has the nose to trail a track that mine can't smell,by the time it gets good enough for mine to even smell,your's should be running it like a hot track.He should be so far ahead that there's no competition for tree.

Posted by Preacher Tom on 06-08-2019 04:03 PM:

I think a lot of dogs have a cold nose, but what I think everyone is looking for is cold nose and move the track quickly the right direction. Now those dogs are uncommon.

__________________
Tom Wood

Posted by DL NH on 06-08-2019 04:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
I think a lot of dogs have a cold nose, but what I think everyone is looking for is cold nose and move the track quickly the right direction. Now those dogs are uncommon.

Bingo! Some people think they have a cold nosed dog when what they actually have is a hound with an average nose that can't run a track period. Many of those hounds will give you a lot of slick trees as well.

__________________
Dan

Posted by DL NH on 06-08-2019 04:45 PM:

I remember a conversation I once had with Dave Dean at the 1989 BBCHA Spring hunt in Ashland,Ohio. We were talking about track dogs and specifically, cold nosed track dogs. He told about being at a UKC hunt with Hammer II and drawing out with a nationally known blue dog that was heavily promoted as being a cold nosed dog that would run tracks most other dogs couldn't. Seems the Hammer II dog got struck 1st on an older track drifted it out opening here and there as he went and after 20-30 minutes fell treed. The other dogs wouldn't or couldn't honor Hammer II on the track but did get in on the tree. After scoring on the coon they leashed up and walked off a ways. Dave said one of the fellas turned to him and said now let's see how that dog of yours runs a cold track. Dave said I looked him in the eye and said "You just did!"

Many people are of the impression that a cold nosed dog has to straddle a track and potter a long like a blood hound. Not so.

__________________
Dan

Posted by Preacher Tom on 06-08-2019 06:11 PM:

Another issue is that not all cold tracks go anywhere much. Some are where a coon has fed and messed around a lot in a 100 yd circle. It still takes a coon dog to know which of the many trees the coon has been in that he is still in. It's nice when a cold track works up to a hotter track but doesn't always happen.

__________________
Tom Wood

Posted by Reuben on 06-08-2019 07:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by DL NH
I remember a conversation I once had with Dave Dean at the 1989 BBCHA Spring hunt in Ashland,Ohio. We were talking about track dogs and specifically, cold nosed track dogs. He told about being at a UKC hunt with Hammer II and drawing out with a nationally known blue dog that was heavily promoted as being a cold nosed dog that would run tracks most other dogs couldn't. Seems the Hammer II dog got struck 1st on an older track drifted it out opening here and there as he went and after 20-30 minutes fell treed. The other dogs wouldn't or couldn't honor Hammer II on the track but did get in on the tree. After scoring on the coon they leashed up and walked off a ways. Dave said one of the fellas turned to him and said now let's see how that dog of yours runs a cold track. Dave said I looked him in the eye and said "You just did!"

Many people are of the impression that a cold nosed dog has to straddle a track and potter a long like a blood hound. Not so.

Even though I don’t coon hunt I knew about Dave Dean and his Blue Hammer dogs... I was always reading about him in full cry because of his dogs...and then before he died I read some of his articles and I felt an instant connection and loved his writings which is a window into his brain and thought processes...my regret is that I didn’t order any of his material soon enough...if anyone knows where I can purchase his writings I really would appreciate it...thanks

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by DL NH on 06-08-2019 08:32 PM:

Valid point!

quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Another issue is that not all cold tracks go anywhere much. Some are where a coon has fed and messed around a lot in a 100 yd circle. It still takes a coon dog to know which of the many trees the coon has been in that he is still in. It's nice when a cold track works up to a hotter track but doesn't always happen.

This is very true..........and rarely found in a coon hound! Could part of the reason be that most don't have the patience to allow a hound that evidences this raw talent the time to develop its skill? Same with cold trailing. How many have the patience to sit and allow a hound to work out a track? Though I believe this ability is an inherited trait, I also believe as handlers we have to be patient at times and allow our hounds to develop. Personally I don't think you start seeing the best a hound has to offer until they're well into their 3rd year. Seems to me that's when their confidence begins to really meld with their inheritance. I think this applies to any hound no matter what game they pursue.

__________________
Dan

Posted by Reuben on 06-09-2019 01:53 AM:

Re: Valid point!

quote:
Originally posted by DL NH
This is very true..........and rarely found in a coon hound! Could part of the reason be that most don't have the patience to allow a hound that evidences this raw talent the time to develop its skill? Same with cold trailing. How many have the patience to sit and allow a hound to work out a track? Though I believe this ability is an inherited trait, I also believe as handlers we have to be patient at times and allow our hounds to develop. Personally I don't think you start seeing the best a hound has to offer until they're well into their 3rd year. Seems to me that's when their confidence begins to really meld with their inheritance. I think this applies to any hound no matter what game they pursue.

A friend of mine has the same type of dogs I do...he likes to cover a lot of ground to catch hogs...his dogs are more in tune with keeping up with him in his atv...

For me it is all about the dogs first...proper casting/winding/ and working out older tracks...I want my dogs to be all around...sometimes when we are roading large corn or maize fields his dogs will be keeping up with the atv and I am bringing up the rear and my dogs will take a track his dogs didn’t pay any mind to it...

I believe the difference is our different hunting styles...if I see my dogs trying to work a track I stop and wait until they work it out or give it up...sometimes I will walk in and guide them in a little further in hopes they can work it out... I especially do this with younger dogs...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by Preacher Tom on 06-09-2019 02:30 AM:

Kinda a funny story that happened about 25 years ago. I had a grade B&T female that's mother was found at the town dump. Called this female Weegee. Was getting out of hunting for a little while so put her up for sale. Now in my opinion she was a good dog but not a great dog. Anyway two guys come to try her. One (not the buyer) had a grand night. He told the other guy not to expect my dog to work with his because his dog was very cold nosed. We strike an old track that they work for probably 25 minutes. His dog comes in and mine trails across a gravel road and trees the coon. The guy bought my dog but I will tell you she was only average on a cold track.

__________________
Tom Wood

Posted by Chuck Allen on 06-09-2019 03:59 AM:

Re: Valid point!

quote:
Originally posted by DL NH
This is very true..........and rarely found in a coon hound! Could part of the reason be that most don't have the patience to allow a hound that evidences this raw talent the time to develop its skill? Same with cold trailing. How many have the patience to sit and allow a hound to work out a track? Though I believe this ability is an inherited trait, I also believe as handlers we have to be patient at times and allow our hounds to develop. Personally I don't think you start seeing the best a hound has to offer until they're well into their 3rd year. Seems to me that's when their confidence begins to really meld with their inheritance. I think this applies to any hound no matter what game they pursue.

Yep , pour yourself a cup of coffee , sit on the tailgate and let those young dogs work the Track.

__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

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