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-- Who else believes ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928517524)

Many folks like to say you have to feed lots of tracks to make a dog...and then one day that dog makes a decent dog...and so that dog gets bred one day...and the cycle is not broken...more often than not we will get more of the same...

When we have a fast starting pup that is born with the instinct to do it right...with minimal training (exposure)...those are the ones that should be bred...they will reproduce themselves more often than not...

We can always say old so and so was a great hunting dog but a dud n the breeding pen...that happens...but the law of average will prevail...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Originally posted by Reuben
I believe that environment plays a role during gestation...certain genes can be turned on or off because of changes in the environment...epigenetics is fairly new and lots of findings are being discovered...I would say hunt the female until the day she stays in the whelping box...treat her with love and kindness...handle the newborn pups as much as possible...

A hunting dog is born and not made...and a great hunting dog can be tweaked to be a better hunting dog or not depending on the handler...

Like some have said on here already...I have given away a pup that tested pretty good at 8-10 weeks and my brother wanted a good blood tracker...I gave it to him and at 2.5 years he gave him back to me because he didn’t do anything with him... I put him in the bay pen one day and he looked like a champ...the next day he struck with the other dogs...took his own track and swam a wide river and was bayed on the other side...within a month or so he was as good as the rest of the pack...he actually seemed as good from the beginning...I just needed to verify consistency...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
...When we have a fast starting pup that is born with the instinct to do it right...with minimal training (exposure)...those are the ones that should be bred...they will reproduce themselves more often than not......

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So, do those fast starting "natural" pups make the best coon dogs in the long run? Or do the later starting more intelligent pups make the better coon dogs when mature? Nowadays a lot of dogs are "through" at 4 yrs old. No one wants a 4-5 yr old dog anymore. In the past a 4-5 yr old dog was just reaching their prime.

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I'd say you're right Tar. Regardless of how much hunting or lack there of a birch is going to reproduce what she does and same for the male. But would you buy a pup out of show dogs that none of them in 20 years have been hunted? Just food for thought.

__________________
Eric DePue
Hill Country Kennels Itty-Bitty
PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

Really I just want a coon dog. Don't raise pups so I try to buy a pup out of coon dogs. Hopefully something that has shown it can reproduce. Try to interact with that pup and spend time in the woods with him. Hunt him, hunt him, hunt him. Still there is no guarantee. Have an 8 month old now out of reproducing line of dogs. I see lots of good and some not so good in him. Only time will tell but he will get that time.

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Tom Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by novicane65
I'd say you're right Tar. Regardless of how much hunting or lack there of a birch is going to reproduce what she does and same for the male. But would you buy a pup out of show dogs that none of them in 20 years have been hunted? Just food for thought.

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Tar

Good post. If it ain't broke don't go fixing it. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Originally posted by yadkintar
When I found a line of dogs that reproduced I stuck with it. Why because the man that I worked for bought every washed up stud. And a lot of expensive females that had big winning records but didn’t reproduce squat !! The founder of the line I got now told me to keep it tight and it will retain the traits you like. Now I ain’t going to tell you that they are any better than anybody else’s but they start quick, mind at the house and tree coons. But like I say all those pups and dogs before them no matter how good they are it didn’t make them reproduce.

Tar

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__________________
Eric DePue
Hill Country Kennels Itty-Bitty
PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

Your right if I was going to buy one it would be out of hunting stock. But then too a lot of folks say a coondog here is a coondog anywhere ! Only one problem who is evaluating what a coondog is lol.


Tar

Tar

You are starting to make too much sense! You been taking some B12 like Bruce? Lol. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So, do those fast starting "natural" pups make the best coon dogs in the long run? Or do the later starting more intelligent pups make the better coon dogs when mature? Nowadays a lot of dogs are "through" at 4 yrs old. No one wants a 4-5 yr old dog anymore. In the past a 4-5 yr old dog was just reaching their prime.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

There was a strain back in the 80’s that started treeing coons really early and you better get them titled by 2yrs old because there was a high percentage of them that became completely worthless and never came out of it.


Tar

Question

Who else believes ?
That the day a pup is born it is born with its reproducing top coondogs ability. And that hunting them has no bearing on how well they reproduce it only makes us feel better when we breed them.


Tar

I agree but I I also want to feel better too!

Went out to the island in the boat fishing took my young dog and just treed a coon its 10:30 in the morning you talk about fun got 3 nice channel cats for supper !


Tar

When breeding to a proven in the woods, well bred gyp to a stud of the same caliber and...

The gyp is hunted 2 times a week for the duration of the gestation period...

And a year later you make the exact same cross because those pups from the first litter are really doing good....but this time the female is not being hunted at all...so...

Would there be any difference between the first litter and the second litter of pups if all else is exactly the same including training and socializing?

Would the first litter be born like crack babies addicted to coon without them knowing it other than they crave it in their sub conscious minds or does it even matter? these are minor details but something to think about...

We know that the pups come from a good line of dogs top and bottom...so their chances of making the cut is high...

I think for the most of us these minor details don’t matter so either litter is just fine...

Why would it matter if the gyp hunted through her gestation ?

Why wouldn’t it matter if she didn’t?

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

This is why me and Rueben think it's important to hunt them pregnant females https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4460494/

Sleepy head

There are lots of evidence to prove you and Rueben are right. Prime example being s child prodigy in music was exposed to classical music every day while still in his mother's womb and was playing classical music at a very young age. There are other examples to prove this theory. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

quote:

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Originally posted by sleepy head
This is why me and Rueben think it's important to hunt them pregnant females https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4460494/

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I'd have to have a solid 8-9 hours sleep prior to reading through all that and then when I got to the end I still wouldn't understand all I knew about it!

I think the short story here is there is some belief that unborn young are effected by their surroundings during prenatal growth. Exercise and being in the best shape possible is always advantageous for the bitch prior to delivering a litter.

I'll leave the rest to the Genticists in this gathering! LOL!

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Dan

Years ago before the internet I bought many magazines if they had an article about breeding better dogs...training etc...

One day I was reading an article that was way out there in left field somewhere...😳🤔 at first I couldn’t see it...but the more I read the more sense it made...

The story below fell right in with what I had read years before...

I mentioned it on here before as well as it was something I saw with my own eyes...long story made short...a little boy about 5 years old was at my house for my grandsons birthday party...my grandson and a few others came running in the house saying Caden is eating red peppers...these are wild birds eye peppers and they are hot...eat 5 or 6 of those little peppers and you will get a stomach ache not to mention the heat...I thought maybe he was swallowing them...so I asked that little kid if he swallowed them or chewed on them and he said he ate them...so I said go get me some peppers and let me see you eat some...he comes in in a little while and he already had them in his mouth...and he was chewing them up...I said open your mouth and let me see...well he had 7 or 8 peppers and his mouth was red with the pigment and quite a few seeds mixed in...no doubt about it he was eating red hot peppers...my observation rather quickly was that there wasn’t any sweating, tears, nor a red face...he was running around playing with all the other little ones...
I made him stop immediately because I was afraid he might get sick...I couldn’t wait to speak to his parents...his mom shows up a little later and I tell her what I witnessed...she just laughed and said when he was about two years old he reached from his high chair and grabbed a jalapeño and munched down on it... I asked what was the explanation or theory behind him eating peppers at such a young age...she said she didn’t know but the only thing is that she started craving jalapeño peppers during her pregnancy with Caden...and ate quite a few...

I can go off in my theoretical mode about this subject...but it’s better to let science come out with the real facts...if we can understand what is being said...

I haven’t seen Caden since that day...but for years I have thought about it...the last month I have talked with his dad and his dad doesn’t see the big deal as I see it...matter of fact I have reminded him that this was very unusual behavior for a 5 year old kid...again today I ran into his dad and he said he will have Caden talk to me about it...he is now a senior in High School...I want to know if he still has that talent...and how many can he eat without getting sick from eating a few or many...

I normally don’t put a lot of thought in one data point...but in my eyes this one is big...it can not be ignored...it needs scientific explanation...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

I read the entire article a while back when it was posted and found it very interesting.
When Mrs. Tar has the soaps on or your waiting on the fish to bite have a good read.

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Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
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I agree that dogs are born with traits that cant be taught. I also believe that you can train dogs obedience like coming off a tree or staying with you when walking back to the truck. Listening and obeying is what i mean when i say training a dog. I never use a lead and my dogs not just one but all know to stay with me if i tell them to because i have a thing called a garmin alpha and if uesd correctly can train dogs to do certain thing. I road hunt a lot and uf i stop the truck my dogs stops most of the the time and u did train her that way with the tone button, no one can convince me otherwise. I also believe that you can help dogs get interested in tracking and treeing but some dogs just dont have what ut takes to be great but you can encourage them to know what you are after. Coon dogs are not bought or born they are made

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Mr. bsilvers1 you said some very interesting things and some very true things. You train your dogs to do it your way. Mainly because that's the way you do it and that's the is what you want them to do.

What you do and what you accomplish with your hounds suits you. That is great. But to be competitive I feel it takes that something special that doesn't come along every day.

Now here is the kicker and I will try to put it together.

I think most people would be very happy to have one of your hounds. When several would want something perhaps more competitive.

What you have is the building block of having something Excellent. They are trained, they are hunted and handled. What separates one from another is their talent.

Most people start out looking for that great hound, when they don't understand the basics of just training and owning a very good hound. The real kicker to all that is. The ordinary man, if a World Champion caliber dog was dropped in their lap. Wouldn't have the time or resources to haul it around the country to prove it could win the world hunt. So Coon Hunters dream about and chase something that is not realistic to their situation.

So Brother, what you do with your hounds to train them to operate the way you like and to hunt for you and bring you enjoyment is really what it should be about to most. But to many dogs are wasted by the owners dreams and not made to perform to to good common sense standards.

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